Topic: MS IIS on a sme server ??

[Ray Mitchell]

Dear All

Is there any way to either run or emulate Microsoft Internet Information Server (IIS) on a sme v5.6U4 server, or an alternative (Linux) program that provides the same functionality.

I help a charity who use a sme server. We can get a lot of free time from Uni students to program a new member database but their preferred option is to use MS Visual Basic .Net, which needs to run on Windows 2000 Pro or better as it needs to use Internet Information Server (IIS). The Windows box would still be behind the sme server so all is not lost.

Any thoughts suggestions or recommendations appreciated.
Apologies for using the MS word here !!

Regards
Ray Mitchell

[Ergin]

Running IIS under e-smith sounds like really long shot.

You might find some information at

http://www.apache-asp.org/ about running ASP pages on an apache server.

You might also consider running IIS with WINE... Using Wine for any kind of server application is not wise from the performance point of view. Also
memory leaks are not a big problem for client apps.

Good luck...

[Greg Zartman]

Ray,

I think the question that you should really be asking is if it is possible to run active server pages on Apache… The answer to this question is yes, but a yes that won't necessarily get you where you want to be.  Apache can run active server pages that are written in perl, not visual basic.  AFAIK, there isn't a way to compile and execute visual basic on a *nix  OS.  Sorry.

If your developers are MS developers, I'd highly recommend that you shell out the bucks for a version of Windows Server.  The time it would take them to learn *nix development might be prohibitive unless you lots of time and patients. .  From my own experience:  The MS developers I've worked with think *nix development tools and languages suck when compared to their MS counterparts.  They are so used to the 100% GUI interfaces, wizards, etc. that they won’t give *nix tools a chance.  I personally think that Perl is a way better language to work with than visual basic (and I have used both), but convincing a MS die-hard of this is an uphill battle.

Your other option is to buy a couple Perl books, a copy of Programming the Perl DBI, and a copy of Activestate perl.  They'll bellyache for days, but eventually they'll come to love perl like the rest of us.  

My two cents.

Greg Zartman

[DG]

There is a commercial product to do it -- formerly Chilisoft, now bought by Sun.

http://store.sun.com/catalog/doc/BrowsePage.jhtml?cid=61836&parentId=80712

[Maggard]

Ray Mitchell wrote:

> Is there any way to either run or emulate Microsoft Internet
> Information Server (IIS) on a sme v5.6U4 server, or an
> alternative (Linux) program that provides the same
> functionality.

Can you run IIS on SME? No.

Actually, no you wouldn't want to. If you could (and yes I can imagine some convoluted ways it could possibly be achieved) it'd be an abomination of a setup and absolutely not anything you'd ever want to rely on.

Can you achieve what IIS does using alternative tools? Sure. Absolutely. MS didn't create any of this stuff, just reimplemented it in their own half-assed way.

> I help a charity who use a sme server. We can get a lot of
> free time from Uni students to program a new member database
> but their preferred option is to use MS Visual Basic .Net,
> which needs to run on Windows 2000 Pro or better as it needs
> to use Internet Information Server (IIS).

'Course then the question becomes can it be easily done with the tools you've got and the training your folks have. Frankly any university students as MS-myopic as you describe aren't deserving of any accreditation but if that's all you've got to work with then you're kinda locked in.

I really do have to question students that require a technology (.Net) that's barely out yet though. Sounds to me like they're simply getting you to purchase them shiny trendy toys and not anything particularly vital to the job.

I mean, a new members database? C'mon, that's an entry-level project, course 102 most places.

It'd be trivial to set up using the MySQL already in your SME server. For a front-end my preferred choice would be Filemaker (easily maintainable by non-programmers) but MS Access would be a natural too. Heck MS Excel could do it, or even MS Word. If you're determined to go web-based then Perl is the obvious suggestion. Or Python, or for a run-sorta-anywhere go Java.

But .Net? C'mon they need a limo to pick 'em up too? Special meals served? They sound a little too precious, a little too willing to set the bar high and make you pay for extra stuff.

In short, your 'free' labor may end up costing you more then a days professional work would. Do a reality check with their faculty advisors before you're snookered.

[Abe Loveless]

As suggested above, if your developers require Visual Studio... your best and only (IMO) option is going to be to set up a Win Server behind your SME and use ProxyPass or Port Forwarding to forward the web traffic to the internal box.

As a charity, or NonProfit organization, you should qualify for some very serious price breaks on the Win 2000 Server licenses and CALs.

If necessary, contact me off list and I can give you some vendor names where I get educational discounts.


Also, I've had really good luck with MySQL and phpCodeGenie (http://phpcodegenie.sourceforge.net/) for learning and developing php applications.  Very easy to learn and use.

[Craig]

Ray,

You could also get the work developed by the cheap Uni Student workforce and then use an application called asp2php which can be found here http://asp2php.naken.cc/

asp2php will take web pages written for Microsoft's ASP and convert them to PHP. asp2php works mostly on VBScript, but some JScript support has been added.

There is a WIndows and Linux version.

Hope this helps.

Regards
Craig

[dave]

Maggard...

Whew, you're pretty unforgiving of the newbies!  

I've been a developer in C/C++ various SQL incarnations and VB for the last 10 - 15 years - mostly self taught.  When I actually did take any courses, they were instructing on the 'latest and greatest' stuff available at the time.  If someone is actually in school right now to work in IT as a programmer or networking or whatever, it would only make sense to teach the most common languages and the most prevalent technologies, which is by far MS based stuff.  I'm hopeful that Linux will continue to grow and really begin to take share away from MS but for now, if 95% or more of the desktops on the planet run MS OS's, why would anyone pay to learn stuff that there's such a small market for?

Don't get me wrong, I've become a HUGE Linux fan, but in the marketplace right now, there's not much demand for *IX admins or developers.  

Just my 2 cents worth...

[Greg Zartman]

> take share away from MS but for now, if 95% or more of the
> desktops on the planet run MS OS's, why would anyone pay to
> learn stuff that there's such a small market for?

Your argument here is "apples and oranges."  The original poster isn't talking about desktop OS development, but internet development.   These are two entirely different beasts.   IMHO, the best internet apps are those developed in languages that run on multiple OS plateforms.  In general, these tend to be the languages that are GPL in nature and originally created to run on *nix systems.  

Greg Zartman

[Maggard]

dave wrote:
>
> Maggard...
>
> Whew, you're pretty unforgiving of the newbies!  

Yeah, I'm pretty unforgiving of folks who insist on a fancy refrigerated 18-wheeler with air cushion shocks and a shiny paint job when the red wagon out in the shed will do the job just fine.

I mean, a new members database?

How pathetically easy a project is that? It doesn't 'require' .Net or it's own server or anything of the sort. Heck, they know the client is a non-profit and thus likely short on money and support staff, already has a 'nix server. Also keep in mind this apparently isn't a just desktop application if it's requiring IIS.

Besides as someone whose on school campuses a lot and knows a few folks who've been through CS programs fairly recently I can assure you most of those students have Linux boxes in their dorm rooms. Their classes almost undoubtedly use 'nix's & particularly Linux as examples regularly. Heck even in the most MS-advocating trade schools Perl & MySQL and the like are 'known' and addressed technologies.

I'm not MS-phobic by any means, nor is Linux & it's ilk the answer to everything. I'm an IS exec. who works in 5k corporations, know and respect the market we all live in. MS servers are a standard but they cost in terms of licenses and hardware and support. Linux is now also established as a server technology, costs less for licenses and hardware and support *and* apparently these folks already have e-smith/SME in-house.

With that in mind saying a new server on a different platform with and expensive set of licenses for the server AND for the development environment, well that all sounds very dubious to me.

But either these kid's answer is .Net for everything ("Hello World?" Sorry, need .Net & a dedicated server for that!) or they're more angling for resume bullet items with a shiny hot tech then actually addressing the client's environment & needs appropriately, at least without knowing more then they're to build a new member database.

In any case a quick review with their faculty advisors would serve as a reality check, answer if this really is what the school considers a proper strategy in line with the education they offer or if indeed this is a case of self-interest coming before the client's. I suspect the latter but a 5 minute chat with the right folks would answer that and possibly save the poster several thousands of [insert currency] in hardware & software & support efforts.

All IMHO of course; opinions worth what they were billed at

[dave]

Maggard,

I wasn't disagreeing with you, just pointing out some of my experiences.  

Greg:  You're right, it is apples and oranges and all...

I was just trying to throw out a bit of a defense for those CS students and new grads.  I have a kid of my own who's going to be getting out of college soon and though her major isn't computer science, she only knows what she's been exposed to in school.  She really won't know what it's like in the real world until she's been participating in it for a few years...

As Maggard says, "opinions worth what they were billed at ..."

[dave]

Maggard,

I wasn't disagreeing with you, just pointing out some of my experiences.  

Greg:  You're right, it is apples and oranges and all...

I was just trying to throw out a bit of a defense for those CS students and new grads.  I have a kid of my own who's going to be getting out of college soon and though her major isn't computer science, she only knows what she's been exposed to in school.  She really won't know what it's like in the real world until she's been participating in it for a few years...

As Maggard says, "opinions worth what they were billed at ..."

[Ray Mitchell]

WOW !!

Thanks everyone for your comments, they are greatly appreciated.
They have given me something to work with and we are sending feedback to the student group to see if the project direction/implementation can go the sme Linux way.

Many thanks for your suggestions
Ray Mitchell

[Ray Mitchell]

Maggard wrote

> Please follow up later, it appears a number of us are interested.

Will let you all know how it finally works out. See below for further update.

> Don't forget to test to make sure the application survives an upgrade to SME v6 > .........it has a slightly different way of setting up databases.

Now that's a good idea, I'm sure we will upgrade to v6 later when appropriate.

> It may be better for you in the long term to go with an 'off-the-shelf'
> application and have the students spec it out, research the market,
> present analysis, then configure it properly rather then custom build
> it as a one-off then move on.
 
We have previously looked at ready made systems but they do not include quite particular functionality that we need, unless of course we are prepared to pay thousands of dollars (which we don't have in the budget).

The Uni student team are final year graduates and the project is monitored and supervised by qualified IT & DB people. The team has already put a few weeks research and specification time into this project so we do wish to proceed with using them to complete the job.
They (or a different student team) have also offered to come back in 6 months to a years time to give us ongoing support with update modifications etc.

We have had some fairly rapid feedback (and all of your comments have helped us), and this is the revised suggested approach that we feel is a reasonable compromise.

MySQL database on the sme server
MySQL development on a Windows notebook and then ported to Linux, so the database could be demonstrated and tested etc on a Windows PC.
Win 98SE workstations running the .Net framework and local .Net
application - the .Net framework is freely distributed so no license costs
We can either get an Academic version of Visual Studio .Net or we can
upgrade from our full version of Visual FoxPro, so if we require in-house
.Net application modification we can acquire the software reasonably
cheaply. Note the University are providing the development tools so we do
not need to buy this at all.
The workstations access the MySQL database via ODBC
Any suitable system ie Crystal Reports, MS Access etc can access the MySQL database on the sme server using ODBC.
Web based access to be developed later but programmed using Perl

This solution sounds satisfactory to me, it gives the students their exposure to .Net at no or little $ cost to us, with future ease of programming availbility for application updates etc, and also keeps our sme as the single secure server with the MySQL database residing on the server, accessible by VPN or web access later when required/completed.

Any comments ?
Regards
Ray Mitchell