Topic: Addind IMAP with ACL could finally replace MS Exchange

[Jon Roberts]

I see in V6 the IMAP server has been updated.  What are the chances of using the Cyrus IMAP server instead as this provides ACL support.  I have been testing a product from Bynari called Insight Connector that adds into Outlook and uses IMAP with ACL instead of Exchange.

They provide their own backend linux server and I know they are looking into the options for providing this on e-smith, and I think their server software is based on the Cyrus IMAP, but then also provides POP, SMTP, LDAP etc, which is better provided by e-smith that their software (simply for integration reasons).

Alternatively, are their any plans for the new IMAP service to support ACLs?  If you could provide this then it would be a genuine replacement for both exchange and the Microsoft Small Business Server.  Without the Groupware features of exchange, there will always be a barrier.

I know its possible as I've had the Bynari Server running on e-smith, but it was 'stand alone' (not in Server Manager) and I needed to disable lots of useful e-smith stuff like xinetd, smtp & ldap and I had to set users up in two places etc.

However, it worked and I could then use the e-smith as a complete SBS replacement (Groupware'n'all).  So, I think that integrating Cyrus (or any IMAP with ACL) would be the most significant enhancement that could be made to e-smith as it would overcome the last barrier to replacing exchange (in combination with Insight Connector on the client side, of course).

[gbl]

An IMAP Server CAN´T replace Exchange.

An Exchange Organisation can contain 100drets of Servers. Only one Server contain the Mailbox. And you can receive your eMail on EVERY Server of your Organisation.

You can´t buil this functionality with an IMAP and ACL and, and, and ...


sincerly
Guenter

[Maggard]

gbl wrote:
>
> An IMAP Server CAN´T replace Exchange.
>
> An Exchange Organisation can contain 100drets of Servers.
> Only one Server contain the Mailbox. And you can receive your
> eMail on EVERY Server of your Organisation.
>
> You can´t buil this functionality with an IMAP and ACL and,
> and, and ...

Guenter -

Please look beyond the end of your nose.

While it is true IMAP *alone* can't replace Exchange it is ALSO true that a combination of an ACL-supporting IMAP server AND the 3rd party Bynari Insight Connector* AND the groupware applications built into and commonly added to SME can reasonably approximate the uses many small and mid-size organizations make of Exchange.

Thousands of servers seamlessly linked? No. But companies with racks upon racks of Exchange servers in data centers around the world aren't really SME's market are they? Espicially the unsupported versions we're discussing here, e-smith.org, is it?

Rather would [SME & IMAP+ACL & Insight Connector* & assorted groupware] suffice the modest needs of a smaller organization without full-time email administrators ? *Without* the very high costs of Exchange?  Yes.

That is the point folks have been making.

Appropriate to run Exxon / GM / Citi Bank / Siemens / etc. No.

Sufficient for much of the not-Fortune-5000? Yes.

-- Michael

*Of course folks aren't pointing out that Bynari's Insight Connector isn't free in $ or source, has it's own quirks, doesn't support many vertical apps, that Exchange & it's descendents are becoming more closely bound to other MS offerings, and of course is all dependant on MS not screwing with 'em...

[gbl]

Hi.

Of course I looked beyond the End of my Nose.

In my Company i´m a IT-Implementer. Based on my function I have installed 100drets of Excangeservers in large also in very small Companies.

Because also in a Small one? Well, the only one Software that can replace a Exchange Server with the "same" functions is a Lotus Notes Domino Server!
The Groupwise functionality seems quiet good as than of Exchange Server. I know that Notes is posisioned a a very flixible DB Application Server that Exchange can´t provide it. I meen the mail-functionality.

Why I don´t resell a IMAP Solution like SME Server.
SME Server is a very good Product. Many Solutions of my are based on it. But NO Groupwise Soluition. I tired "Insight Connector" - it costs, I guess 40 Euros - but:
1) It is a 3rd party Product plugged in a MS - Product.
2) MS canges the Object Modell of its Products in every Version!
3) No one can guarantie that the current running Version of *Insight Connector* runs in the next Version of Outlook.
4) A IMAP Client has killed many Subdirectories on my SME Server! Without a question.

I my Business, I don´t resell a Solution that don´t 100% works! Why? If a Solution don´t work, the customers said:
" You have sold us this solution, now it is your own! "

So I mean an IMAP Based Solution is very good for Home. For Small Companies a Small Business Server of Microsoft or Netware (Zenworks).
Maybe this Solutions will work when a Community program a OpenSource replacement of Microsoft Outlook with the SAME Functionality!


sincerly

Guenter

[Jon Roberts]

The two sides of the argument are interesting and both valid.  Clearly a seamless replacement of Exchange would be the ideal solution, but as far as I know it is not there yet (although I know there are some posts to the OpenGroupware.Org project which may have some potential).

However, I don't believe that any argument along the lines of 'It can't be used in all cases, therefore it is not a viable option' is valid.  There are very many small business out there running MS Small Business Server.  This has to run as a stand-alone server and is limited to 50 users.  The e-smith server is a (pretty much) direct replacement for this product, or would be if the shared calendar / folder features in Outlook worked for with it.  

I accept all the arguments about using an add-on to Exchange, and that Bynari Insight Connector is not free.  However, the cost in minimal compared to the MS alternative - not only on the software, but also for the equivalent hardware needed.

The reason I raised the thread is that I believe the products already exist to make this possible.  If Cyrus IMAP (or any IMAP with ACL) was installed on SME then we would have a workable solution NOW.  Not suitable for everyone, not without some compromises, but a practical, viable alternative to MS Small Business Server that would provide a Small Business the same functionality with hardly any noticeable change to them on the desktop.  Unfortunately, I lack the skills to do this and so am dependent on others.

A seamless Exchange replacement - Yes, please.  But in the mean time, how about using what already exists to plug (what I believe to be) the biggest - possibly only - gap in the functionality of SME, when comparing it to MS SBS.

[Maggard]

Guenter -

Nothing but MS Exchange will ever be anything but MS Exchange. If that is your benchmark then of course nothing else will suffice.

Furthermore MS will always see it stays that way. They own that chain front to back and can, and no doubt will, see to it that no one seriously competes with them using their own client.

As to Notes, also "mostly compatible" but at an even greater cost. NOBODY has ever brought Notes in as an Exchange-replacement, always it is because they want more/different then Exchange offers. Furthermore Outlook as a front-end to Notes? Not in SME's market.

But the real world that small & medium business live in, which *IS* SME's market, isn't as black and white as you paint it. For many of them being able to use the popular Outlook client with *significent* *functionality* at a fraction, say 1/10th TCO cost, that to them is VERY interesting.

If it's not exactly MS Exchange is often acceptable. They understand there will be limitations, they're well used to trade-offs. But that they can get what they need at a great price is what pushes the Wishlist request.

You can serve your clients as you will. But to dismiss something on the basis it's-not-exactly-XYZ seems short-sighted. The application shouldn't define the solution, the requirements should. In that context SME+ can indeed be an excellent answer to many business's desire to use MS Outlook as more then a stand-alone client.

Exactly like Exchange? No. But enough at the right price? Sure.

YMMV.

ps Sorry to hear about your bad experience using sub-folders in IMAP. However millions of folks use IMAP every day with great sucess, perhaps you're over-reacting a bit?

[Tino Fourie]

Considering software technology in todays business environment, it is very important to keep systems pure in OS and applications.

Consider for a moment what MS has done over the pass few years. They have gone and developed a total solution by "stealing" ideas and howto's from other succesful players in the industry. MS at this point is masters at improving existing technologies and making it their own - either by acquiring the company or by engineering a MS version of an existing solution. But what is important is the fact that it integrates well with their existing products - from W/Station to Server OS, to applications, to tools.

I have tried to mix and match different products on a Linux system, unfortunately the amount of effort and time that is invested into doing that way is not always profitable.

Mitel has an absolute brilliant approach to the Linux arena - Why? - They allow you to configure a complete (well, almost complete) through a GUI interface (the same way you would do with a MS installation.

Linux (regardless of its flavour) needs to be more GUI based than console driven. This will allow Linux to grow faster than it has in the past 13-14 years.

Mitel will need to follow MS method of adding existing methods into their own software. This will have the effect of a "pure breed" system, full integration of applications and tools, stability, single point of support, enhanced improvements on software updates, faster deployments, piece of mind for you and your customer.

WELL DOME MITEL - keep it up.....