Koozali.org: home of the SME Server

What [new] hardware for a small company?

Offline judgej

  • *
  • 375
  • +0/-0
What [new] hardware for a small company?
« on: April 13, 2007, 10:19:36 AM »
I would like to supply a new SME server to a small company (around three permanent staff and up to five temporary at any time).

If I were to buy new hardware to put the server on, what are the current recommendations?

There are cheap PCs (super specs from the likes of Dell, for a couple of hundred quid) and there are servers (which seem to start towards a grand), but not much in between.

So, is there anything [new] available for around £300, suitable for SME Server, a couple of hard drives, can be left on 24x7 and is quiet enough to sit in a small room with a bunch of people?

I'm in the UK.

-- JJ

Updated: also two network cards, for use in server/gateway mode. I realise some of these tiny boxes only have one network card and there is no room to upgrade.
-- Jason

Offline jumba

  • *****
  • 291
  • +0/-0
  • Donations: July 2007 - $ 20.00
    • Smeserver på svenska!
What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2007, 11:24:51 AM »
I wouldn't go for anything but a "server" (Cheap PC's aren't built to be running 24/7)

Problem here is of course that most "servers" aren't very quiet :(

One of the budget servers from Dell would do the job fine, - don't forget to use at least 2 identical hard drives to you can use raid1.

Also, consider how to manage the backups....

I've tried a very useful "lan HDD cabinet" from D-link named DNS-323.

The box features a full web interface as well as a goof FTP-server.

Using Dmay's smeserver-dar contrib to place full backup jobs over to the D-Link box at regular intervals and it works just great!

Plz tell the rest of us what you decided to buy, good luck!

Offline imcintyre

  • *
  • 609
  • +0/-0
What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2007, 11:33:28 AM »
Not and expert and so can't recommend specific model, but given # of users I think almost anything will work. You could probably scavenge an "old" pc and get it to work. Re small form factor pc's, I had a small form factor compaq running as my home server with 4 users in server/gateway.

Things to watch for:
It did have pci slots for extra nic but there were not 2 separate hd bays or channels. I ended up disconnecting the cd drive and putting 2nd disc in its place. Worked ok for amateur but probably not what you want to do if you are offering raid 1.

It did have 3 slots for ram but that was unusual for that size machine. I have noticed that some Dell's we get at work have only two, even though they are not sff. Given performance requirements probably not an issue.

Offline judgej

  • *
  • 375
  • +0/-0
What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2007, 01:28:07 PM »
Quote from: "jumba"
I wouldn't go for anything but a "server" (Cheap PC's aren't built to be running 24/7)

Problem here is of course that most "servers" aren't very quiet :(


Yeah - I quite agree there.

The bottom of the range I'm looking at (and let's face it, the bottom is still far more than I need) is the ML110 G4 for around £380 (shopping around).

I'm sure I can get some older models from a surplus distributer, but scavenging bits (as suggested below) is probably not what a client is looking for. I have plenty of SME servers built from scavenged PCs in various charities and my own offices and home, but I'm always on hand to replace the odd fan, clean out the dust and generally make sure they are not going to fail soon. I also realise that if any of them completely died, getting identical hardware to replace it quickly would be a nightmare.

Backups: a USB hard drive would suffice, along with dar2. Backing up to other PCs on the network would also be prudent, easy enough to set up, and can be automated.

I don't think there is going to be a whole lot of data, but their email requirements run at around 2G annually, apparently increasing by 0.5G each year (so it will build up over some years).

-- JJ
-- Jason

Offline imcintyre

  • *
  • 609
  • +0/-0
What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2007, 04:52:31 PM »
Re comment about cheap pc's...

I have a Dell here that's been left on 24-7 for 5 yrs or longer. It's a P2 that saw service as a CAD machine in its heyday and now used for software repository and scans from central scanner/printer/etc.  Maybe its statistically aberrant but refuses to die.

don't forget UPS

Offline judgej

  • *
  • 375
  • +0/-0
What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2007, 07:28:03 PM »
Quote from: "imcintyre"
Re comment about cheap pc's...

I have a Dell here that's been left on 24-7 for 5 yrs or longer. It's a P2 that saw service as a CAD machine in its heyday and now used for software repository and scans from central scanner/printer/etc.  Maybe its statistically aberrant but refuses to die.

don't forget UPS


I had a car like that once. It was still going with no problems, many years after that model was meant to have lost its big end, piston rings, braking system, ... It only ended when some scally wrote it off parked outside the house :-(

One thing I've noticed about some of the Dell desktops, is they can run very quiet and very cool. They should last well. However, some models are almost built to die within the year. I guess it is about finding the right one.

-- JJ
-- Jason

Offline Boris

  • *
  • 783
  • +0/-0
What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2007, 08:56:58 PM »
Something like entry level server  DELL Power Edge 400SC (or PE440 SC) would work well, quiet and inexpensive. They often have sale on those and with basic configuration you can find one for $300-$500.
...

Offline judgej

  • *
  • 375
  • +0/-0
What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2007, 01:20:32 AM »
Quote from: "Boris"
Something like entry level server  DELL Power Edge 400SC (or PE440 SC) would work well, quiet and inexpensive. They often have sale on those and with basic configuration you can find one for $300-$500.


Yes, it looks good, and at a good spec. Unfortunately it does not appear to be on general release in the UK.

-- JJ
-- Jason

Offline geoff

  • ***
  • 61
  • +0/-0
What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2007, 01:27:53 AM »
I have a couple of PCs with Intel Mainboards and either Seagate or WD mirrored drives which have been running for several years now, in fact one is nearly five years old and is still running SME5.5 as the owner will not let me touch it as he is a disciple of the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" school. My constant nagging about security falls on deaf ears as nothing untoward has happened.

A UPS is mandatory IMO and an extra fan in the case is always good insurance, and a strong backup regime

While proper Server equipment is strongly recommended for critical applications good quality PC gear works fine for less critical applications.

Offline mark_s_tt

  • **
  • 37
  • +0/-0
What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2007, 11:15:11 PM »
What's up with this?

http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/pedge_sc440?c=uk&cs=ukbsdt1&l=en&s=bsd

Got 2 of the slightly older models than these a 400sc and a sc420, they're almost silent.

They come with ECC memory also which IMO is important for a server.

Offline judgej

  • *
  • 375
  • +0/-0
What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2007, 11:23:56 PM »
Quote from: judgej
Quote from: "jumba"
I wouldn't go for anything but a "server" (Cheap PC's aren't built to be running 24/7)


As if to prove a point, my little Asus Terminator, running smoothly and quietly as my main server for many years just lost its onboard network. It would receive packets, but would not send anything. I've disabled the onboard and put a second PCI network card in, but it just goes to show!

On the whole though, the terminators work well. They are small, quiet (so long as you get the latest BIOS, so the fan is controlled correctly) and run cool. My 1.8GHz model cost about £200 four or five years ago.

-- JJ
-- Jason

Offline judgej

  • *
  • 375
  • +0/-0
What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2007, 11:29:11 PM »
Quote from: "mark_s_tt"
What's up with this?

http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/pedge_sc440?c=uk&cs=ukbsdt1&l=en&s=bsd

Got 2 of the slightly older models than these a 400sc and a sc420, they're almost silent.

They come with ECC memory also which IMO is important for a server.


Wow - perfect. Thanks :-) I tried all the Dell tools to try and find those, but it always seemed to lead me to more expensive models. I guess it's similar to the leaflets we always seem to get through the door, offering fantasitic spec Dell laptops for £260, which you can never find on their site unless you type in the secret URL.

-- JJ
-- Jason

Offline Maniac

  • *
  • 15
  • +0/-0
What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2007, 01:00:17 AM »
I installed sme on a pentium 2 with 233 Mhz and 128 Mb ram and it worked fine. -> you can take every old Pc (even from the junkyard :wink:), install a silent cpu cooler and don't spend much money.
But if you want to have a save system or much harddisc space buy a newer one..

Offline nmtrier

  • **
  • 38
  • +0/-0
Low cost Hardware for SME-Server in UK
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2007, 12:17:30 PM »
I had a silmilar need last summer for a small (2 person) firm when the 3 year on site warranty on their previous Dell server expired.  The criteria I was looking for were:
 - on site (next business day) hardware support for 3 years, so I don't have to sort out hardware failures
- tape backup so that they can create full backups simply (they have under 10GB of user data and it does not seem to grow much)
- identical twin disks for mirroring

I got them a Dell Poweredge SC430, but the SC440 appears to be the current product. I selected the Travan tape cartridge for backwards compatibility with the previous system but the price for tape backuip is a killer. Probably for the budget solution, I would add a contrib to backup to a workstation hard drive - since they have such enormous disks nowadays.

I configured the workstations to logon to the SME-Server domain, and run with My Documents mapped onto their user folder on the server, sharing an Ibay for their common files.  Similarly mail uses IMAP on the server, and the local Outlook file was also moved to the server.  This way, there are no important user files on the workstations.  This means that there is little need to backup the workstations, as they can be rebuilt from recovery disks and the application software re-installed in the rare eventuality of disk failure.

Their domain user ids are registered on their workstations as Windows XP Power Users, not admin.  I also registered the network admin ID on the workstations as amdin user, so that admin work on the workstation also has good access to the server and internet compared with a local workstation admin logon.
...

Offline judgej

  • *
  • 375
  • +0/-0
What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2007, 03:25:22 PM »
Quote from: "Maniac"
I installed sme on a pentium 2 with 233 Mhz and 128 Mb ram and it worked fine. -> you can take every old Pc (even from the junkyard :wink:), install a silent cpu cooler and don't spend much money.
But if you want to have a save system or much harddisc space buy a newer one..


I also had a client running one of these for a long time. The killer was the speed - soooooo sloooooow. It would take about ten minutes to reboot, and five minutes for a simple admin panel change. They now have a 1GHz machine (also built from bits) with 512M of RAM, and are literally flying along now.

-- JJ
-- Jason

Offline judgej

  • *
  • 375
  • +0/-0
Re: Low cost Hardware for SME-Server in UK
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2007, 03:33:28 PM »
The warranty is certainly a good point. Always useful to be able to offer options.

I've never set a system up yet that logs into an NT domain. Is this actually possible when a client uses a mix of Windows 98, XP Home and XP Pro? I got the impression it was only an NT/XP Pro thing, but I could be wrong. I suspect I'm missing out on some good stuff though.

My backups are probably going to be a mix of workstations and USB disk, with the workstations automated and the USB drive a manual thing (so they can control when they take a backup off-site).

-- JJ
-- Jason

Offline nmtrier

  • **
  • 38
  • +0/-0
Domain logon
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2007, 04:48:21 PM »
I think that w98 could, but XP Home couldn't, so I have used persistent net shares to achieve similar effects. In this case, I made sure that the clients run XP Pro, so they can do the domain logon. Mixed workstations are not a problem as long as users don't expect the same environment wherever they logon!
...

podge

What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2007, 10:50:18 PM »
I got the machine that I am using as a server from http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Dell-Outlet late last year.

They have some great deal, but read carefully what you are buying.

I my case I picked up a OptiPlex 2.8GHz dual core with 1G memory and 80G hard drive for £220 (OS free) and that included 3 years next day on site warranty. For the sake of a small scratch on one side panel.

I run two SME severs on this using VMWare. (I have fitted a second disk and upped ram to 2G)

OK, this is a desktop machine not a server, but its a large form factor. And has coped so far with running 24/7. With near silent running for its huge fan.

Personally I would avoid small form factor machines, higher power density can lead to reliability problems.

Chilly

Offline Boris

  • *
  • 783
  • +0/-0
What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2007, 05:55:07 PM »
DELL Optiplex is a business class desktop and with exception of few models (G270 for example) they almost as reliable as entry level servers. Especially older models, that were build strong as tanks.
For noncritical tasks like small home server, I don't hesitate using them as well.
...

Offline andy_wismer

  • *
  • 107
  • +0/-0
    • ANWI-Net
What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2007, 12:11:49 AM »
Hi

Win98 / WinNT Login

I DO actually have clients running a SME as PDC and a mix of clients from Win98SE, WinNT, Win2000 and 2 WinXP Notebooks. They all log on to SME as PDC and have roving profiles and server based login scripts. Network drives are ONLY mapped with login script, I don't use UNC.


HP ML110 G4

I'm a big fan of the HP ML110 G4 series. I've got about 20 of 'em running SME at small/medium clients. I usually choose 2 SATA Disks 80 or 250 GB, depending on expected data volume, and an additional (third) SATA, also usually 250-500 GB, this one specifically for Backup2Disk in 5 or 7 generations.

I use an additional promise controller for the third disk, and mount it in a 5.25" bay - the ML110 G4 only supports 2 3.5" drives "out of the box". With the care-pack and additional RAM (512 is standard), you can get these boxes for quite a bargain price.

The big plus - they're really quiet. So quiet, that I got fed-up with my "built myself" server at home and replaced it with a new ML110. It runs SME (what else?) and VMWare, FireFly Media Server, Netjuke / Jinzora, SQL-Ledger and a few other things, but that server's basically my Home Music Server ;-)

UPS is mandatory for business servers, at home I don't have one (yet).

If I get the choice, it's HP-Compaq Proliant Servers ;-)

Andy Wismer

Offline azche24

  • *
  • 163
  • +0/-0
    • http://az-law.de
What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2007, 07:27:04 AM »
Hi,

Quote from: "andy_wismer"

HP ML110 G4
I'm a big fan of the HP ML110 G4 series. I've got about 20 of 'em running


I just sorted out a ML110G2: Loud as hell and a power-consumption > 150 Watt with 2 HDs. I hope, the G4 is better than that. :)

Seriously. I only use self-made AMD and Intel based servers for years now:
Big tower from chieftec, good power-supply from seasonic or enermax, good ram, at least 1 additional chassis-fan,  and mainboard like MSI 6368 with PIII/1000 CPU for homeserver and ASUS 8XN/XP1700 for an office-server with up to 8 users. Never any hardware related problem with that. And power consumption ranges from 50 - 90 watt.
Alexander Ziemann, Berlin - DE

Offline andy_wismer

  • *
  • 107
  • +0/-0
    • ANWI-Net
What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2007, 08:33:55 AM »
Hi

I've been building my own servers since 1997, but now I'd buy a Proliant.

I always chose "best of breed" components like 3Com / Intel NICs over Realtec or others. But still, over the last ten years, clients using Proliants gave me much less hardware headaches than those using my own built servers.

The HP G2 is MUCH louder - and bigger, too! The G2 is much "longer" than average PC's, the G4 is actually smaller than a normal Mini-Tower. The G2 also can hold 4 Disks, the G4 only 2.

The G4 is way better for "quieter" environments like office / home without a dedicated server-room.

One disadvantage of PCs is usually the small ventilators / fans "built-in".

Simple physics: A fan with half the diameter needs to run 4 times faster (!) to  keep up with the larger fan. This makes for more wear & tear, higher energy consumption (The fan motors get hot too...) and the worst part: dust and stuff like that usually kills the tiny 1" fans within a year.

My home server had hd-cartirdges, each with a small fan behind. I had to replace those things every few months, as they'ld just die and get hot...

With my HP ML110 G4, I'd just call HP ;-)

But then again, this thing doesn't have "tiny" fans - the big ones are WAY more reliable.

YMMV

Andy Wismer

Offline judgej

  • *
  • 375
  • +0/-0
Re: What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2007, 06:00:57 PM »
What a great thread! Thanks to all who contributed.

I think we have two clear winners:

HP G4
Dell SC440

I'm going for an SC440 this time - only £190+VAT this month for the most basic 3GHz Pentium-D 512Mbyte configuration, inc. extra SATA HD, and with more than enough headroom to support a small business. I couldn't buy the bits and build myself for that price.

Just for comparison, I'll try the G4 next time :-)

-- Jason
-- Jason

Offline k9

  • 3
  • +0/-0
Re: What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2008, 02:03:27 PM »
Hi

I've just ordered a Dell Powedge T105 for my home office server.
Headline price is £99 incl Dual Core Opteron 1212, 2.0GHz, 2x1MB Cache, 2x 80GB HD, 512MB RAM, SATA DVD/CDRW combi.
My spec was Dual Core Opteron 1212, 2.0GHz, 2x1MB Cache,  2x 250GB HD, 512MB RAM (have 2GB spare at home), SATA DVD/CDRW combi.

Price incl delivery is £195.60 + VAT .. couldn't resist ;)

Product code is PE1T1052, offer expires 25 Jan 08 or when 1000 units have been sold (max 2 per person).
UK only offer

Will be using latest SME + s/w RAID + extra 500GB SATA (from my stock) for backups

k

« Last Edit: January 23, 2008, 02:12:35 PM by k9 »

Offline judgej

  • *
  • 375
  • +0/-0
Re: What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2008, 11:56:49 PM »
Jeeze - how can they possibly sell a complete server for less than it costs me to buy the processor alone?
-- Jason

Offline k9

  • 3
  • +0/-0
Re: What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2008, 12:12:14 AM »
Yeah, great deal, should have bought 2 !

I've used the small optiron desktops in the past (2002-2004) but this is my first Dell server, thought it would be worth a go at the price.
I bought the desktops via europc and they worked very well even in a furniture factory ... tons of sawdust and general airbourne crap ... not good for PCs.  Used a DNUK rack server, with E-smith 3.x through to 5 (? was this the version number in early 2004?), software raided ... software raid saved our bacon on a number of occasions when the dust killed a hard drive. Dead easy to rebuild.

K

Offline judgej

  • *
  • 375
  • +0/-0
Re: What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2008, 12:17:16 AM »
Yes, I believe 5.0 and 5.5 would have been around in 2004. I've been using it since 3.x too, when a [faulty] version was added to the cover disk of PC Plus. That must have been 2001 or thereabouts. Time really flys!

Thanks for the hardware tips - it really is helpful to know what's available on offer, as it can make a substantial difference to the overall costs. Perhaps we could do with a hardware forum, where people can simply post the hardware they use, experiences with that hardware, current special offers etc.
-- Jason

Offline k9

  • 3
  • +0/-0
Re: What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2008, 12:53:36 AM »
Current home server is the missus' old PC, a winfast board, early AMD 64 processor (can't remember which), 512MB RAM 250GB HD, albeit in a small box, in a server cupboard.  Home servers have usually been ex desktops with Durons, Celerons etc .. software raided and/or rsync'd.

My furniture company had software raid and daily rsync'd via broadband to my home e-smith server. Logging in to work via VPN and/or SSH. E-Smith/SME is the bees knees, but clients take some convincing as they are used to Windows and having to log in/upgrade regularly to maintain it. A relatively non maintenance, low spec server that works, seems too good to be true to some clients! Most go for Win XX .

Will use new Dell server to backup my webservers and mirror my company data , also backed up to USB and remote storage ... paranoia or commercial reality ?

K
HRBSaccountants.com
« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 01:03:15 AM by k9 »

Peng

Re: What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2008, 01:45:31 PM »


Wow - perfect. Thanks :-) I tried all the Dell tools to try and find those, but it always seemed to lead me to more expensive models. I guess it's similar to the leaflets we always seem to get through the door, offering fantasitic spec Dell laptops for £260, which you can never find on their site unless you type in the secret URL.

-- JJ

Actually, I'm not sure this is perfect, mainly because this product uses SATA hard drives whereas, according to the SME Server Admin Manual (Chapter 4), the minimum/recommended hard drives are IDE or SCSI.

--P

Offline mercyh

  • *
  • 824
  • +0/-0
    • http://mercyh.org
Re: What [new] hardware for a small company?
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2008, 03:08:19 PM »
Quote
Actually, I'm not sure this is perfect, mainly because this product uses SATA hard drives

There are many SME's running on SATA drives. Do we need to update the manual?

I am not sure if they still need to be jumpered down to 150/mbps transfer rate or not. (I did the last ones I built.)