Topic: webmin

[cyberiadmin]

hi, i would like to run webmin on sme server. can i do so, could some one please tell me how? (step by step)
thanks a lot
url: www.webmin.com/

[Daniel B.]

No, webmin cannot work with SME server as it's completely uncompatible with the templates system. Why would you like to run webmin? What's missing in the server-manager (maybe a contrib can make you happy ) ?

[p.e.dj.a]

What is not missing?
Server-manager provides just very basic and inadequate settings.

[Daniel B.]

Well, SME is made to be simple to administer, showing you just basic settings in the web interface. You can control a lot more with db/signal-event commands and custom-templates. If this isn't sufficient, then, maybe SME is not what you're looking for.
Just give example of what you would like to see in the server-manager. There's a lot of contrib available which add features not included in the base.

[p.e.dj.a]

For instance, even very cheap home routers offer proper options to configure them. SME server is much more powerful and it offers next to none such option.

SME server is just not what it is advertized for. It is just a bit advanced distribution thas asks few informations to presetup. Everything else, you have to digg through consoe and try to configure manually, even for most basic needs.

Compare it to ClacrkCOnnect or Yes Linux and you will find out more advanced user interface, which offes at least options that are usualy needed in SOHO environment.

There is no doubt that SME server as platform is very powerful, but that power does not show.

[Daniel B.]

Again, please, give examples. The server-manager looks very simple because every component are very well integrated, and works together. For example, you don't have any option to open port in the firewall, because they will be automatically opened if the corresponding service is enabled (eg: imap and pop).
SME is really great in SOHO environment, so what would you really need as options in the web panel?

(I agree that for techs, the server-manager can be frustrating, but SME is made to be managed by non-tech user, anyway, advanced options are still available through the command line)

[Stefano]

For instance, even very cheap home routers offer proper options to configure them. SME server is much more powerful and it offers next to none such option.

none? are you sure?
what do you think is missing?

SME server is just not what it is advertized for. It is just a bit advanced distribution thas asks few informations to presetup. Everything else, you have to digg through consoe and try to configure manually, even for most basic needs.

Compare it to ClacrkCOnnect or Yes Linux and you will find out more advanced user interface, which offes at least options that are usualy needed in SOHO environment.

well.. you have 4 possibilities:
1) help developers to achieve what you want
2) develop it yourself and give it to the community
3) pay someone to code what you need
4) use another distro

SME server has "out-of-the-box" everything a small enterprise needs.. and if you need more, you can alway extend it with contribs..

if you looking for a web interface to setup EVERY single parameter of SME, you are looking in the wrong direction.. SME is a server distribution and (IMHO) if you use it, you should know what are you doing; in this perspective, command line is the only possible way.

There is no doubt that SME server as platform is very powerful, but that power does not show.

well.. any example of what are you saying? real example, please

you can not see SME's power? evidently you are not able to use it
if you read the manual you have all SME's power on your fingers..

and, remember, "power is nothing without control" (Cit.)

Ciao
Stefano

[mercyh]

There is no doubt that SME server as platform is very powerful, but that power does not show.

The platform is Centos. SME gives you a preconfigured platform with a web based administration panel, it also gives you this community . If the preconfiguration is not what you need, if the administration panel does not have the the options you desire and the community can not give you the answers you are looking for, I think you need to find another distro.

This is an interesting project in that it tries to give the platform power of a "tech's" server to the non technical user. This has caused many interesting and heated discussions in the forums as the "techs" and the "nontechs" try to find a middle ground where everybody can work together.

Open source is built on the premise that a user will share what they develop. Generally a user's development will be features that they need. If you need the same feature, good for you. If you need a new and different feature, develop it and share it back with other users so they can use it when they need it. A request for a new feature will probably not be filled unless a developer sees it and says "That is a good idea, I need that feature."

[pfloor]

SME server is just not what it is advertized for. It is just a bit advanced distribution thas asks few informations to presetup. Everything else, you have to digg through consoe and try to configure manually, even for most basic needs.

p.e.dj.a

From that statement, it appears that you may be missing something.  You mention the initial configuration setup screen and "Everything else" is done from the console.  Have you tried the web-based GUI "Server-Manager"?

Have you gone to a client machine connected to your lan and browsed to?:

https://servername/server-manager
Or
https://xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx/server-manager (where xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx is the server's internal IP)
Or
https://server-domain.com/server-manager

[p.e.dj.a]

SME server has "out-of-the-box" everything a small enterprise needs.. and if you need more, you can alway extend it with contribs..

Well, the bolded oneis very untrue. That is what SME serer is advertised for, but it is not. IT is actually just server that novice mayinstal and it will run, with some basic (not enough) functionality, and if he needs something more, story is finished for him, as hemust have extended Linux knowledge to configure it.

You are discussing with me as novice, which I am not. I am not an expert but in a years I have dealt with different server plaforms, an my daily job is maintaining networking, including servers. I deal with peopel who needs just what SME server advertizes it is, but it is not - not jsut to isntal and have some working dunctionality, they need to have control what is going on with it in case something goes wrong, things that are usual, common and obvious: if their IP is blacklisted due they have to have means to see what could be the reason, if their internet link is slow they have to be able to see what is occupiing resources...

I am following SME server for a years as promising platforms, but, except for upgrades of existing stuff, I see no improvement on interfacing and making more options available to novice users.

I even never saw what exactly is considered by SME server devlopers as "everything a small enterprise needs". Having working email server? Having working web server? Having working plain NAT router? SUre that is all neded but not all.

What I consider necessary is:

- having proper ways to easily monitor what is going on with server/router, meaning monitoring in real time: service statuses, resource statuses, connections (including, investigating protocol itself if needed), etc...

- having proper way to control way how things are logged, and proper way to view logs, and proper way to trunc logs to acceptable file lengths (or by date)

- having proper way to see in realtime, avtual internet troughput, and not just in whole, but usage by IP, by port, by connection type and other meningful criteria

- having proper way to shape usage of internet link bandwidth

- having proper means to see how firewall is set (especially because SME sets firewall automatically), so novice cannot know what is set), and also set firewall for custom needs, especially, if novice user needs to block outgoing connections.

- having proper way to checkout configuration of everything SME has in use, every server, every addon

- having proper way to use addons if they need them, including automatic download and install, and followed with proper server-admin interface extension to control that addons.

And, yes, that all should be available without need to login to console, but solely through server-manager.

From that point of view, in all these years, SME did not go forward a bit. Server/manager is almost the same, unchanged, offering just basic options to start server, and nothing more than that.

SME Server, as it is now, is lost in the middle, it cannot fulfill needs of people who are not experts, and makes too much limitation to people who are knowledgeable.

Sad thing is that SME really offers power needed to accomplish needed functionality, but it does not. Partly, because of limitation of Linux ideology, which is by every means against comfort, and usability, and partialy by developers, whoe too much into development of the core, forgetting that user interface is as much important as the core, because user interface has to show capabilites of the core.

And that is why Windows alternatives are advancing in this area. Yes they do cost much more, but they offer what is needed: enough functionality, easy to use interface and complete system that is easy to monitor and investigate, even by novices.

[pfloor]

Wow, it sounds like SME is not for you then.  I don't know what you expect for free.

I am following SME server for a years as promising platforms, but, except for upgrades of existing stuff, I see no improvement...

That is because you never contributed anything to make it how you want it.  This is open source and if you want something that doesn't exist, you have to make it yourself or pay someone to make it for you.

Besides that, most of the items you ask for are available as contribs but you already know that...

Afterall, you have been "following SME for a year"

[Daniel B.]

What I consider necessary is:

- having proper ways to easily monitor what is going on with server/router, meaning monitoring in real time: service statuses, resource statuses, connections (including, investigating protocol itself if needed), etc...

sme7admin can monitor some stuff, with graph representations

- having proper way to control way how things are logged, and proper way to view logs, and proper way to trunc logs to acceptable file lengths (or by date)

You can view the logs in the server-manager. If you need more advanced logs viewer, you'll need to do so on the command line (cat grep less tail are your friends). But, I don't think novice will look for logs.

- having proper way to see in realtime, avtual internet troughput, and not just in whole, but usage by IP, by port, by connection type and other meningful criteria

You can install ntop, it's a great tool for this kind of reports

- having proper way to shape usage of internet link bandwidth

Check the wondershaper script

- having proper means to see how firewall is set (especially because SME sets firewall automatically), so novice cannot know what is set), and also set firewall for custom needs, especially, if novice user needs to block outgoing connections.

Really, firewall stuff shouldn't be configured by a novice, that's why SME hides it. If the user is really a novice, he wouldn't understand all the rules. Advanced users can still look at it in /etc/rc.d/init.d/masq (and the corresponding templates) or with iptables -L -vn |less

- having proper way to checkout configuration of everything SME has in use, every server, every addon

You have some information in the server-manager (review cnfiguration), maybe you should open a NFR to include more details

- having proper way to use addons if they need them, including automatic download and install, and followed with proper server-admin interface extension to control that addons.

You can allready install a lot of addons through the server-manager (the update panel). For the panel, it'll depend on the developper, not every contrib has a panel, but you can allways contact him/her to help on developping a panel for a particular contrib.

And, yes, that all should be available without need to login to console, but solely through server-manager.

I must disagree, a lot of things you're talking about shouldn't be touch by novice.

From that point of view, in all these years, SME did not go forward a bit. Server/manager is almost the same, unchanged, offering just basic options to start server, and nothing more than that.

You should check at all the bugs and NFR which are now closed before saying SME "did not go forward a bit" (and maybe help the development)

SME Server, as it is now, is lost in the middle, it cannot fulfill needs of people who are not experts, and makes too much limitation to people who are knowledgeable.

Sad thing is that SME really offers power needed to accomplish needed functionality, but it does not. Partly, because of limitation of Linux ideology, which is by every means against comfort, and usability, and partialy by developers, whoe too much into development of the core, forgetting that user interface is as much important as the core, because user interface has to show capabilites of the core.

Once again, I have to disagree. In my job, I install a lot of SME server for small company, it fulfill their need, and even much more

[Stefano]

Well, the bolded oneis very untrue. That is what SME serer is advertised for, but it is not. IT is actually just server that novice mayinstal and it will run, with some basic (not enough) functionality, and if he needs something more, story is finished for him, as hemust have extended Linux knowledge to configure it.

I will not answer point to point to yours analisys, I want only to say that:

- if you don't feel confortable with SME, no one is forcing you to use.. do you like windows or other alternatives? well, no problem at all for me and the rest of community
- with the philosophy you've described, out there is full of "system administrators with click click, next next, finish".. and the result is that word is full of spam, virus, open relays and other fine things
- SME is not an alien product.. is linux.. don't you like (for example) the way backup is done? do it yourself, write down a simple script and voilà.. dont't you like where logs are and how they are? modify a fragment, expand a template, restart a service.. all done.. are you saying that in windows you can really have the same control  you can have on EVERY linux distro?
- with windows or commercial products, you have to take care to update s.o. AND every service and/or program you have.. with SME (and almost every linux distro) you can keep your system up-to-date with one line
- if you are looking for something that also a monkey will be able to use, SME is not for you..

one of murphy's law says: "if you do something for idiots, only idiots will use it"..

Stefano

[mercyh]

out-of-the-box" everything a small enterprise needs

maybe not true as who knows what any one specific small enterprise needs. I am a small enterprise that has software that must run on an IBM AS400. Obviously SME is not "everything I need". Maybe we should state it this way.

If you need:
-Secure e-mail
-Secure webserver
-File and print sharing
-A simple domain
-A simple router with one external IP address
-A server that is easy to maintain and runs on minimal hardware
-A server on which basic administration such as adding and removing users can be done simply and easily
-A server that is well supported by a large forum of users and has consultants available for paid support

Then SME out-of-the-box is what you need

 

[Stefano]

I am a small enterprise that has software that must run on an IBM AS400.

OT: I work in a corporate that has his core-business on As400 development

Ciao
Stefano

[mercyh]

It could be that 16,767 people are wrong and should be using something different .

http://smolt.contribs.org/stats.html

[warren]

Not everyone is a developer / coder ?
Everyones  level of expertise differs ?

So, then try help out by answering post in forums, testing the software, spread the word how GOOD SME actually is for organisations that dont have mega buks to throw at the point and click MS option...

But the bottom line is , Do Not look a Gift horse in the mouth;
I believe the Gambling term is : Put up, Or shut up;

End rant

To the Developers, contributers, document folks; Keep up the excellent work

[pfloor]

I believe the Gambling term is : Put up, Or shut up;

My favorite "one liner" occurred some 30 years ago when the car we were in stalled right in the middle of the road.  A couple of us were trying to get it pushed to the side and out of the way and a 3rd "friend" stood there in front of the car and jabbered on complaining about the situation.  My friend looked him straight in the face and said:

"Don't just stand there jabbering on, either Push, Pull or get the &%@#$ out of the way."

I have shortened it and my version is simply "Push, Pull or get out of the way"

In my opinion (knowing what I know now), this line fits (to a tee) open source software development.

[electroman00]

Let's see

Code: [Select]

1 Post with the intent to understand the issue at hand, with a desire to culminate to an agreed solution, if a problem is realized.

2 Post with the intent to be rude, insult, degrade, defame some group, entity or individual.

3 Don't post at all.
Those are fairly simple choices to understand.

1 & 3 should be the only acceptable posting types within an open source software development community.

Should your desire be #2 then I think most everyone will agree that #3 should be be your choice.

There were some very valid points and issue's presented within this thread and if your only ability is to respond with

Put up, Or shut up
Push, Pull or get the &%@#$ out of the way

THEN MAYBE YOU SHOULD CONSIDER #3.

I know I would be very grateful if you considered #3, I'm sure others would be grateful and I'm absolutely sure
newcomers to this forum would be grateful if you made #3 your choice.

That behavior is unnecessary, unwarranted, uncalled for, disgraceful, disrespectful and most of all degrading to the entire community.

The purpose of this community is to serve as a meeting place where all can collaborate on the issues and problems and development
of the community.

Anyone who tries to justify....

Put up, Or shut up (112 posts)
Push, Pull or get the &%@#$ out of the way (798 posts)

is doing nothing more then trying to justify deplorable bad behavior.

Maybe you don't realize that, this is not your community, it's everyone's community who donates as well as those that do not.

And who wants to donate to a community where by they will be subjecting themselves to this type of behavior and abuse.

Who in their right mind, would want to donate in any way to support this crap behavior.

Did you even consider that before you posted, I think not.

Maybe you should.

I'm sorry you don't agree with everything  that is said in a forum.

That simply doesn't give anyone the right to be abusive in anyway.

Communicating using a respectful & understand approach will yield a positive result.

Positive results is what everyone wants, bottom line..!!

Reasons or Results

Reasons don't count.

The "Results" should not be deplorable bad & abusive negative behavior.

It needs to stop.....

Stop....not only in this thread, but every thread.

Better yet, it doesn't need to stop, for it should never start.

Sure people will come to the forum without an understanding of their issues or problems or minimum level of respect required.
That doesn't mean you should stoop to their level or below or even that you are granted a right somehow to bad & abusive negative behavior.

You are however, granted the right to rise above everything with your skills and knowledge and help them overcome their misunderstandings, issues and problem.

Surely these statements don't fulfill that granted right to help someone, which you had available to you.

Put up, Or shut up (112 posts)
Push, Pull or get the &%@#$ out of the way (798 posts)

The right to be respectful and help someone that is.

You by your very own behavior, took that right from yourself and at the same time disgraced this community.

Is that really what you wanted to project?

Do you think anyone here wants you to project that kind of behavior.

What if someone has a business deploying SME server and makes a living at it, to feed their family and at the same time
donates to this community.

What if their customer, just happened to find this thread and all the others like it in this forum.

What then, you just banter back and forth justifying the behavior.

I think not...because the damage will have been done.

There were two posters one with 3 posts the other with 4 posts and somehow you thought it was appropriate
to end with.......

Put up, Or shut up (112 posts)
Push, Pull or get the &%@#$ out of the way (798 posts)

Looks to me like you guys lost the game by default, you thru in the towel, game over, by default.

That certainly is something to be proud of isn't it.

Grow up..

[pfloor]

electroman00, next time you quote someone, please do so in it's entire context.  The entire saying is:

"Don't just stand there jabbering on, either Push, Pull or get the &%@#$ out of the way."

I have broken down your post and came to the conclusion that you are basically telling me to:

Stop posting rudely, insultingly, etc (Don't just stand there jabbering on),
Post nicely and lend a helping hand (Push),
Contribute in any way you can (Pull),
Or keep quiet (or Get Out of the Way).

You have brought this all to light for me.  I am just standing here jabbering on, neither Pushing nor Pulling so I think I will just "get out of the way".

Yes, I lose, I throw in the towell, the game is over for me.  YOU WIN.  I gave it my best and in the end, I blew it.  800 posts and one that didn't sit well with you.  Sorry I couldn't do better. 

What I can't figure out electroman00 is whether you are pushing or pulling but that doesn't really matter anymore, you have achieved your ultimate goal and managed to "get me out of the way".