Topic: Bugzilla is easy

[stephen noble]

Instead of referring users with problems to the bugzilla home page I suggest we refer them to the wiki.

http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help#Bugzilla_is_too_hard

http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help#Bugzilla_is_easy

EDIT
I don't want to suggest bugzilla is hard, I was clear in the wiki that a simple bug report isn't hard to lodge but that supposed the link was followed.

[David Harper]

Good idea.

EDIT: Better idea!

[chris burnat]

...And then you will find out that it is NOT hard at all.

[cactus]

Instead of referring users with problems to the bugzilla home page I suggest we refer them to the wiki.

I will still refer them to the bugtracker, the help link in the bugtracker header refers to this page already. Users can find that themselves or report back in the forum when they do not know how to proceed I think.
Referring them to this place will require an additional step and does not tell them that the goal is that we would like a bugreport.

I still think most users who are capable of operating/using the forums, can also report issues to the bugtracker. OK you need a different account but apart from that launching a bug is more or less the same to posting a message in the forums.

Lots of them IMHO are just lazy and think it is hard without trying.

[uniqsys]

Lots of them IMHO are just lazy and think it is hard without trying.

I agree.  But, if you really want a bug report and to help the novice, which I think are noble goals, then we need to make it even easier.  We wouldn't have complaints if it was so.  Someone may not be at all familiar with the bug process as we are.  How about a page that is a mock bug report showing exactly and specifically what should/needs to be filled out. True the help screen tells you what to do and it seems easy enough, but what about showing them?  Or even a template?  Is it possible?

[cactus]

I agree.  But, if you really want a bug report and to help the novice, which I think are noble goals, then we need to make it even easier.  We wouldn't have complaints if it was so.  Someone may not be at all familiar with the bug process as we are.  How about a page that is a mock bug report showing exactly and specifically what should/needs to be filled out. True the help screen tells you what to do and it seems easy enough, but what about showing them?  Or even a template?  Is it possible?

I am thinking on changes, ways to improve to the bugtracker but would like to hear suggestions from all of you. I was considering setting up a new thread for that, but perhaps it might fit in this conversation as well.

I really would like to know if you have tried and how you experienced it, please be constructive instead of just stating I could not do it or it was to hard. What was hard and why did you think so?

[uniqsys]

I am thinking on changes, ways to improve to the bugtracker but would like to hear suggestions from all of you. I was considering setting up a new thread for that, but perhaps it might fit in this conversation as well.

Great I like improvements too.

I really would like to know if you have tried and how you experienced it, please be constructive instead of just stating I could not do it or it was to hard. What was hard and why did you think so?

I am not the one complaining that it is too hard.  I have reported several bugs, and I think it is easy, but others do not feel that way.  My above suggestion is from other people's point of view. I thought that this thread was in response to a recent post complaining that posting a bug was too hard.  That's all.

On thinking back when I first reported a bug (years ago) I think the idea of "bug" was intimidating almost accusatory of the program which most people are not comfortable with.  I certainly wasn't. Some people don't understand that it is really a standard information service format, or standard communication format for a problem that they have that is actually being asked of them; not a judgment.  My suggestion above of a template is simply to get a way to get people to "fill out the form" properly so we can all benefit.  Maybe we need to promote bugzilla as a HELP mechanism better than we do, but I'm not sure how to do that.

[CharlieBrady]

I have reported several bugs, and I think it is easy, but others do not feel that way.

Do we know for sure that any of those have tried?

Has anyone said what it is about bugzilla that is so "hard"?

[David Harper]

There was some work done a little while ago in terms of documenting procedures and so forth. It can be found at http://wiki.contribs.org/SME_Server:Community

[uniqsys]

Do we know for sure that any of those have tried?

I don't think we can ever know that unless they tell us and that is unlikely.  So, maybe this discussion is superfluous.

Has anyone said what it is about bugzilla that is so "hard"?

My impression is that they don't really mean "hard", people rarely mean what they say.  I would interpret it as either intimidating (as to noobies) or just plain bothersome, as stated in a post above.  If it is the latter, then certainly this discussion is superfluous, as there is no relation to easy or hard, just slothfulness.  But if it is because of intimidation, then a template with instructions is a way of helping out.

[stephen noble]

people rarely mean what they say

that may be my new sig, lol

we have a template here
http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help#Reporting_Bugs

I only recall one person using it, but when they did it made fixing the bug trivial

it's either too hard to find, or people are lazy
users are not going to click on the help link
that was my reason for suggesting the wiki as the first point of reference

we want the instructions short and clear
readable in 30 seconds and achievable in 5 minutes, ie search report done

I don't think a form based template is worth the effort to implement
and would likely result in fewer bugs as they are generally a pita

just my 2c, refer direct to bugs if you wish

[cactus]

I only recall one person using it, but when they did it made fixing the bug trivial

it's either too hard to find, or people are lazy

That is nice, but users have to know of the template as well as to use it, indeed.

I don't think a form based template is worth the effort to implement
and would likely result in fewer bugs as they are generally a pita

doubt that and if I find the time I will try anad investigate as the current bugzilla already has something in place (from the default install).
It works in two fold, you can define form elements for specific sections, like problem, expected result, actual result and format that in a default layout (also templated) as a comment in a bugreport like we enter now manually.
This way you can request special information in tinier bits and have it formatted in a default way maintaining a more constant quality of bug reports.

[uniqsys]

That is nice, but users have to know of the template as well as to use it, indeed.

That is true but if used universally in bug reporting people would get used to it.

... if I find the time ...

Can I be of any help here?

It works in two fold, you can define form elements for specific sections, like problem, expected result, actual result and format that in a default layout (also templated) as a comment in a bugreport like we enter now manually. This way you can request special information in tinier bits and have it formatted in a default way maintaining a more constant quality of bug reports.

That sounds like a real template!  The bug help page http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help#Reporting_Bugs is not what I would call a template, more of an assisted description of what and how to fill in a bug report.

And since

when they did (fill in a bug report in the suggested way) it made fixing the bug trivial.

It looks as if a standard format saves time for all of us, including people searching bugzilla for help.

You know, if you can define form elements for specific sections, then in a way the template is almost there.  What seems to be possible is formating the bug description area more formally, instead of just a message box.  I would then follow up on the help section via documentation and pictures and show an ideal bug report filled in in the help section; i.e. what should and should not be filled in by the reporter.

[electroman00]

Possibly?

Bug Report
--------------

SME Server supports many different hardware components and can be configured in a multitude of different ways, being accessed from
any number of different Operating Systems and / or applications. It is of vital importance therefore, that when you
file a bug report, as much information as possible is included in the bug report to allow the developers to track down
the problem and, if possible, reproduce it. A step-by-step guide of what to do in order to reproduce an issue is crucial.
When filing a bug, be sure to select the version of SME Server that the bug targets in the bug submission form.

If you require assistance with figuring out whether an issue is indeed a bug, it's a good idea to post your questions / comments
to the forums first and have others assist with verification and proper formatting for subsequent entry into the bug tracker.


Enhancement Request
---------------------------

SME Server is constantly evolving. If you have a new or enhanced feature idea you'd like to have implemented, please post your ideas in the forums.
If it picks up steam and there is enough support from other potential users for the feature to be implemented, then open an enhancement
request in the bug tracker, describing in as much detail what the feature request is and why you believe it would be beneficial to other
users (other than yourself of course). Bear in mind that the sole purpose of the SME Server distribution is to be a server.
If your feature request is does not fall into that realm, it will not likely make it into SME Server base distribution.

[CharlieBrady]

Possibly?

Possibly what?

[electroman00]

Possibly what?

Possibly you didn't read beyond the word "Possibly"...!!

hth to clarify Possibly..!!

lol

[cactus]

Possibly you didn't read beyond the word "Possibly"...!!

hth to clarify Possibly..!!

No it does not, so please explain!

lol

I do not see the fun here and am tempted to warn you again. I get the opinion you are trying to ventilate some criticism or remark, but I am not going to interpret so you better be clear.

[stephen noble]

Johnathon you've just misinterpreted

Possibly?

should have been

Possibly we should add this to the wiki ?

Then the text to add followed

Thank you for the suggestions electroman00
Just add it , it looks fine

[CharlieBrady]

Just add it , it looks fine

Not to me. It encourages people to waste time gossiping about possible bugs here in the forum, rather than report all possible bugs in the bug tracker.

[uniqsys]

Not to me. It encourages people to waste time gossiping about possible bugs here in the forum, rather than report all possible bugs in the bug tracker.

I agree.  We are always encouraging people to post bugs for problems.

But as I said before  (in fact look at some of the forum posts) people say that they are "not sure this is a bug..." and then ask for advice.  I think most people don't want to accuse the program first (as the word bug implies) and they are sensitive to the developers' time.  Most people want to be sure its a bug before they post.  They don't understand that the bug tracker is an "issue tracker".  This may be why MS calls them "issues" in their KB.

In any case I agree that we should not have

If you require assistance with figuring out whether an issue is indeed a bug, it's a good idea to post your questions / comments to the forums first and have others assist with verification and proper formatting for subsequent entry into the bug tracker.

in the wiki.  The developers are constantly fighting this very issue. Why encourage it?
  Also, this is why I encourage a different name like "issue" for the "bug" tracker OR at least, to record data consistently, create a template as Cactus is looking into.  The "issues" then convert to "bugs" as the developers see fit.

[uniqsys]

I spent some time today on the existing help section in Bugzilla.  Maybe this is sufficient.  Please look at
http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help#Reporting_Bugs

Thanks.

[cactus]

I spent some time today on the existing help section in Bugzilla.  Maybe this is sufficient.  Please look at
http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help#Reporting_Bugs

It might be, but if we can 'force' the user to enter this in a template I think we can improve the quality of bug reporting.

[uniqsys]

It might be, but if we can 'force' the user to enter this in a template I think we can improve the quality of bug reporting.

Can you redesign the bug report entry screen to add these fields and limit the existing "Description" to "Original Problem" or "steps to reproduce"?  That would be one way to "force" a user to enter this information in a consistent manner.

[cactus]

Can you redesign the bug report entry screen to add these fields and limit the existing "Description" to "Original Problem" or "steps to reproduce"?  That would be one way to "force" a user to enter this information in a consistent manner.

Yes you can, but I have not found the time to setup and start with it.

[David Harper]

I have to say that I don't find Bugzilla difficult at all nowdays, but some years ago when I was starting out (late 90's) I was a little intimidated by Bugzilla and similar tracking programs.

I think the main reason was that so much of its interface is still essentially text-based. We live in an age when computing is largely visual, and SME Server itself is a product that through its graphical server manager attempts to do away with text-based interfaces for most operations. The front page of the wiki has a bunch of icons and coloured text boxes. Even as I type this forum post there are a range of friendly buttons above the editing field to help me format text easily.

Thus Bugzilla can, in a certain sense, be seen as "arcane" or "hard" because its UI is a little dated. This is not a criticism of Bugzilla, becuase it's a perfectly acceptable system and is reasonably well laid out; rather, it's a comment on why I think some newer users react badly when seeing it.

I also agree with uniqsys that having pre-prepared fields for desired/required information is an improvement, because it would reduce the questions (and thus nervousness about Bugzilla) felt by new reporters as they are preparing their first bug.