Topic: rude moderators

[phredd]

I just read the recent thread about nano.

Interesting that the moderators chose to shut the thread down, Charlie Brady getting the last (incorrect) word.

Charlie said, "cactus gave and answer, and then said "please take the trouble to search".

No - what cactus said was, "Please try and investigate some more yourself instead of raising every question you have here. How hard would it have been to just type nano and hit enter and then see for yourself?"

This is a slam on Newburns. Pure and simple. No other way to look at it.

There are many good reasons that SME is in decline, not the least of which is the lack of people skills on the part of the developers. Charlie is downright curt and rude most of the time. Now cactus is joining him.

I have moved on and away from SME. Not because it isn't useful, but because this forum's attitude toward people who need help is pathetic. You will continue to see SME fall behind other similar products because you have failed to help people who know less than you.

[Stefano]

interesting post.. first one.. does it add something usefull?

you say "have moved on and away from SME"; just for curiosity, what takes you here again?

[phredd]

Good point.

Curiosity, mainly. To see if anything has changed. I have used SME from 5.x-on (and have contributed a modest amount of money to the project) and have seen over the years a growing lack of tolerance of people who are just seeking help. That and the glacial pace of development meant that I just can't  stay with SME any more.

[Stefano]

Curiosity, mainly.

oh, yes..

have seen over the years a growing lack of tolerance of people

phredd, SME is a server distribution.. I know that is one of the easiest distro to create a enterprise class server but.. but if you see a "growinlg lack of tolerance", I see a growing laziness of the people coming here, asking for help without giving any detail, without having spent a single minute searching the forums/wiki, without ever looking at the documentation.

If you ask me "what editor can I use on SME8 because I see pico is not there?" and I answer you simply "nano", I expect you to go to your console and type "nano [enter]".. nothing more, nothing less.. I expect you to search here and there (Google knows almost everything).. I expect that you, as a new forum user (and maybe as a newbie linux user), have a humble attitude toward of who is trying to help you..for FREE, in the spare time.

some users think that the forum is an helpdesk: they come here, ask, ask, ask.. may I say that sometimes this kind of attitude is tedious and irritating?

[phredd]

(sigh)
I rest my case.

[Stefano]

(sigh)
I rest my case.

do you think I'm rude with you?

[phredd]

No, but you don't seem to think that newburns had a right to ask a question that could be very simply answered without slamming him for not searching. Or just say, "google the word nano" or "type 'nano' on the console". Just that simply. Sooner or later it will sink into him/her that, "oh, google really IS my friend". But instead, he is one more person who has been spanked by the powers that be here for being a noob.

It's happened to me, too. I have become very leery of asking questions because I got tired of being told, "NOT HERE - IN THE BUG TRACKER!", or "silly noob! search first!", even after I have searched or am not sure if it's a bug or just my noobness. Even with a problem with this website's functions - "use the bug tracker". What? Who would know that?

This site is not easy to use. Using google for a search engine was a step in the right direction, but searches do not always bring up answers, and often I have had to ask questions that were met with the scorn of others here. Why would anyone want to put themselves through it?

You mentioned that this is my first post(s). I use another name, but charlie seems to delight in pouncing on me. I decided to be anonymous.

I don't bring this stuff up lightly or flippantly. I see it as a cancer that you folks need to address. This is the only forum of it's kind that I feel that I can't fully participate in because of being slammed for asking a dumb question and don't think that I am alone in my views.

[janet]

Hey phredd

(Editing my post after seeing your answer above).

I do not see you giving any useful answers to noobs, or to anyone else for that matter. OK then so I read you are hiding under a different name.
If you start answering questions here on a regular basis it would be a better use of your creativity than criticising "the style" of those who do answer questions.

You and all participants in this forum need to grasp the fact that any answer, when given for free, should be appreciated by the recipient, even if they do not like the answer.

As far as being emotionally reactive to answers, in many cases that is simply inappropriate. Written text with or without emoticons cannot possibly convey emotion, so therefore when recipients apply a negative connotation, it seems to me to be based on their own emotional persona or attitudinal perspective, rather than that of the poster (who gave an answer).

What is really so bad with saying, please search the forum as you will find many answers ?
What's so wrong with answering so succintly in one word ie nano ?

Let's not pretend that users of this forum are dumb or stupid or uneducated, they are all here because they have installed or are using sme server. That requires some degree of technical knowledge or understanding beyond the ability of many "average" people.

So let's not pretend that noob users are "babies in nappies", they are definitely not. They are clever people to have setup a sme server, and clearly have a working brain, it's just that many "newer" users do not appreciate the use of various tools such as how to do proper searches etc etc etc.

....And let's all stop reacting emotionally to posts that are made.

[phredd]

I just said that I not using my usual name. I have helped here where I can and when I feel I know some answers.

"Any answer, when given for free, should be appreciated by the recipient, even if they do not like the answer."

That attitude is part of the problem. Sure, any help should be appreciated. But does a noob have to suffer the gauntlet at the same time? How often does it have to happen before people start to think, "Why put up with it when the folks elsewhere are friendlier?"

[CharlieBrady]

I just said that I not using my usual name.

Yes, that come as no surprise. You keep promising to move on - please do.

[phredd]

And I expected no less from you, Charlie.

Countdown to shutting this thread down in 3..2..1..

[Stefano]

No, but you don't seem to think that newburns had a right to ask a question that could be very simply answered without slamming him for not searching.

phredd.. you are putting too many energies to defend newburns.. sounds strange..

Or just say, "google the word nano".

no, I said

I expect you to go to your console and type "nano [enter]"

it's a bit different..

Just that simply. Sooner or later it will sink into him/her that, "oh, google really IS my friend". But instead, he is one more person who has been spanked by the powers that be here for being a noob.

no one will spank you if you are a noob.. you will be spanked if you come here, make 10 questions and demonstrate a lazy attitude

It's happened to me, too. I have become very leery of asking questions because I got tired of being told, "NOT HERE - IN THE BUG TRACKER!", or "silly noob! search first!", even after I have searched or am not sure if it's a bug or just my noobness. Even with a problem with this website's functions - "use the bug tracker". What? Who would know that?

sincerely, I think nobody told you "silly noob".. you've been told to search..
about bug tracker.. the rule is "if something doesn't work out-of-the-box, please open a bug".. is it so difficult to understand?
and yes, this is also valid for website.

This site is not easy to use. Using google for a search engine was a step in the right direction, but searches do not always bring up answers, and often I have had to ask questions that were met with the scorn of others here. Why would anyone want to put themselves through it?

did you open a bug for this? did you try to make some suggestion to make tih site better? did you ever tried to think that there are hundreds people coming here and that is not easy to please them all?
you could help this project simply collaborating to it..

You mentioned that this is my first post(s). I use another name, but charlie seems to delight in pouncing on me. I decided to be anonymous.

this is called morphing and it's really a bad thing to do.. and I'm sure that charlie doesn't like to be "bad"

I don't bring this stuff up lightly or flippantly. I see it as a cancer that you folks need to address. This is the only forum of it's kind that I feel that I can't fully participate in because of being slammed for asking a dumb question and don't think that I am alone in my views.

well, everybody here was a noob some time ago, me too.. but I never felt I'm being slammed here, even where I was told to search.. and no one told me that I'm a silly noob..  you seem a bit too sensitive to me..aren't you?
do you react the same way in the real life?

[phredd]

I do think I have hit a nerve.

[phredd]

...well, everybody here was a noob some time ago, me too.. but I never felt I'm being slammed here, even where I was told to search.. ...

And I didn't either, years ago. I do now.

[janet]

phredd

Apologies for reposting this part of my earlier answer as it may have got lost in the many rapid responses.

As far as being emotionally reactive to answers, in many cases that is simply inappropriate. Written text with or without emoticons cannot possibly convey emotion, so therefore when recipients apply a negative connotation, it seems to me to be based on their own emotional persona or attitudinal perspective, rather than that of the poster (who gave an answer).

What is really so bad with saying, please search the forum as you will find many answers ?
What's so wrong with answering so succintly in one word ie nano ?

Let's not pretend that users of this forum are dumb or stupid or uneducated, they are all here because they have installed or are using sme server. That requires some degree of technical knowledge or understanding beyond the ability of many "average" people.

So let's not pretend that noob users are "babies in nappies", they are definitely not. They are clever people to have setup a sme server, and clearly have a working brain, it's just that many "newer" users do not appreciate the use of various tools such as how to do proper searches etc etc etc.

....And let's all stop reacting emotionally to posts that are made.

[Mjohnson]

I find myself in agreement with Phredd. 

I have stopped recommending SME as a solution to associates.  I have now denigrated my SME Server to the role of files server only.  I can get a $200 NAS solution to fulfill that role without ever being told to check the bug tracker.  I will forgo the use SME in a month or so.  Been a nice ride, but certainly it is over.

To be honest, the harsh snippy attitude of the forums has been the tipping point for me. 

Good luck with your product.  For me the future of packaged servers is "Clear"....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Edit<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
To clarify my point, the denigration of my SME Server to file server only is not due to anything in the forums or some whimsy of emotions, it is just a reality of how my company is growing.  I meant to say that since my SME Server is now only acting in the role of file server, I could replace it with just about anything.  The previous roles of mail server, FTP Server, Web Server and Backup are now being hosted off-site primarily for cost, continuity and security reasons. 

[phredd]

...Written text with or without emoticons cannot possibly convey emotion, so therefore when recipients apply a negative connotation, it seems to me to be based on their own emotional persona or attitudinal perspective, rather than that of the poster (who gave an answer).

Ok - before we forget, here's the comment that set me off:

"Please try and investigate some more yourself instead of raising every question you have here. How hard would it have been to just type nano and hit enter and then see for yourself?"

How can this be misconstrued?

[Stefano]

phredd, I ask you again: in the real life, you keep asking and asking and asking for help? are you able to walk on your own or do you ask someone to carry you on his shoulders?

I think that the sentence you've quoted is not offensive, it's not rude.. it's only a way to stimulate the lazy noob.. about that noob, I remember he came here saying "I want to collaborate".. asking here everything passes in your (generally speaking) mind is a good way to approach this community?

[johnp]

Must be a full moon 

I personally didn't see the replies to be meant as a slam. From reading newburns posts, he seems to be a fairly resourceful guy. The one word answer should have been sufficient.

I don't think spoon feeding answers is beneficial to the user in the long run.

I know it wouldn't be for me.

[phredd]

phredd, I ask you again: in the real life, you keep asking and asking and asking for help? are you able to walk on your own or do you ask someone to carry you on his shoulders?

I am an educator in real life, and have spend many years learning how to inform people while not belittling them. I ask for help when I need to, and try to help where I can. I am trying to help contribs.org realize that they are turning people away.

I think that the sentence you've quoted is not offensive, it's not rude.. it's only a way to stimulate the lazy noob.. about that noob, I remember he came here saying "I want to collaborate".. asking here everything passes in your (generally speaking) is a good way to approach this community?

You and I have a fundamental difference of opinion about what "stimulation" is. To stimulate Newburn, I would have said, "nano is a stand-alone version of pico (pico being part of the Pine email client). Try typing 'nano' on the command line." It was a more work on your part, but now, the next noob who searches pico will have a complete answer, minus the angst. 

[phredd]

...
I don't think spoon feeding answers is beneficial to the user in the long run.
...

If you know the answer, making them hunt for it wastes their time. Some of us need answers and are also willing to give them. Some of us just ask. In any event, the search function only works when questions have been answered.

Making a game out of it ("I know the answer, but since you didn't search, I am not only not going to tell you the answer, I am going going to remind you that you did it wrong, you lazy noob") helps no one.

[phredd]

...it's only a way to stimulate the lazy noob.. ...

Wow.That speaks volumes.

[johnp]

If you know the answer, making them hunt for it wastes their time. Some of us need answers and are also willing to give them. Some of us just ask. In any event, the search function only works when questions have been answered.

Making a game out of it ("I know the answer, but since you didn't search, I am not only not going to tell you the answer, I am going going to remind you that you did it wrong, you lazy noob") helps no one.

I believe the question was answered by the first response. What he chooses to do with it, I can't say.

[phredd]

I believe the question was answered by the first response. What he chooses to do with it, I can't say.

To someone who already knows what nano is, the answer was given. To someone who has no clue what nano is, the one-word answer was cryptic. He asked for clarification. He got slammed for it.

[Stefano]

If you know the answer, making them hunt for it wastes their time. Some of us need answers and are also willing to give them.

if I answer to a question and add to the post "please search next time, please", I expect that the same user will search the next time before posting.. with some users it works, with other no.. in this case I don't think they need help, they need to understant that I will not waste my time for them.. and, for sure, I will tell them it.

Some of us just ask. In any event, the search function only works when questions have been answered.

99.999% of  questions has alredy been answered or is in the FAQ.. 99.999% of question is not "rocket science"..

Making a game out of it ("I know the answer, but since you didn't search, I am not only not going to tell you the answer, I am going going to remind you that you did it wrong") helps no one.

I never seen this as a game.. and the game you are talking about is education.. I help you but my help is not only the answer but also the way you should act to find the answer next time..

I would never give you the fish, I will teach you how to catch the fish

[phredd]

I would never give you the fish, I will teach you how to catch the fish

I would put forth that what is being taught is not to ask questions.

[johnp]

To someone who already knows what nano is, the answer was given. To someone who has no clue what nano is, the one-word answer was cryptic. He asked for clarification. He got slammed for it.

You say he got slammed, I say he got the answer with some addition guidance i.e. try it yourself.

[phredd]

99.999% of  questions has alredy been answered or is in the FAQ.. 99.999% of question is not "rocket science"..

Says the rocket scientist.

[Mjohnson]

I know I should just ignore this, but I can't help but indulge my childish nature..........

It is always the same cast of characters that jumps to the defense:  Stefano, Cactus, Mary, Charlie.... Everytime.  I know because, as recommended, I did a search before I posted this reply!!

Guess what guys, we have heard your same tired defense time after time.  Do you not have room in your response program to listen to what Phredd is saying?  How can you possibly argue against "Don't be Rude"? 

[phredd]

You say he got slammed, I say he got the answer with some addition guidance i.e. try it yourself.

The 'guidance' was clearly a chiding for not looking up pico. I tried to find an explanation of both pico and nano on this sight. Guess what? Nothing clear comes up. References to using both exist, but not what the programs are. Maybe in helping a person, some searching on the part of the helper is in order before firing off the works, "did you search for it?" Then - you could give the lazy noob not only the info, but how you found it. Or - you might realize that the info in fact does not exist, and by answering the question (in one or more complete sentences) the info now DOES exist for the next noob.

That's education. Being a teacher is work, too.

[johnp]

I would put forth that what is being taught is not to ask questions.

I disagree. I think there is an effort to empower the user to find answers for themselves by utilizing available assets. This provides the user with greater problem solving skills that can be carried on to assist in future problem resolutions.

[phredd]

It is always the same cast of characters that jumps to the defense:  Stefano, Cactus, Mary, Charlie.... Everytime.  I know because, as recommended, I did a search before I posted this reply!!

I in no way wish to disparage the work that these people do. When you find these names over and over, it's because they do a lot of work here. Everyone knows this.

The issue is not one of lack of dedication to this project. The problem is when a person with a sincere need to know something is made to feel inadequate because they didn't know the answer to a question before it was asked.

[johnp]

I in no way wish to disparage the work that these people do. When you find these names over and over, it's because they do a lot of work here. Everyone knows this.

The issue is not one of lack of dedication to this project. The problem is when a person with a sincere need to know something is made to feel inadequate because they didn't know the answer to a question before it was asked.

This is kind of a subjective statement. I don't think that any other can make one feel inadequate. I also don't think there is any intention to do so in this forum.

[Stefano]

I know I should just ignore this, but I can't help but indulge my childish nature..........

It is always the same cast of characters that jumps to the defense:  Stefano, Cactus, Mary, Charlie.... Everytime.  I know because, as recommended, I did a search before I posted this reply!!

Guess what guys, we have heard your same tired defense time after time.  Do you not have room in your response program to listen to what Phredd is saying?  How can you possibly argue against "Don't be Rude"? 

Mjohnson.. before posting this message, did you look at my stats? did you see that more than 25% of post in italian language forum is mine..? did you also see how many topic did I open?

did you also see the stats of the other "caracters" you are talking about?

what about if any (of all) of them stop answering?

so, are you able to do a simple calculation: answers/questions

also, please.. do another one: 3 minutes for post.. how many hours did I spend on the forums trying to help you (generally speaking, of course)? think about the time I (and Cactus, mary, and all the other "caracters") spend to test SME, to study, to test the solutions before answering..

what about you? did you feel slammed here? well, maybe, but I'm sure that if you feel so because many of us told you to search before posting the fault is not on "our" side.

if you think I'm rude, dude, you have really some problems, here and in RL..

p.s. you use the right word to describe you: "childish"..

[Mjohnson]

OK Stephano, you got me.  You win the contest for being the most rude...and in two languages!!

My Hero!!

[phredd]

Again - here is the statement in question:

"Please try and investigate some more yourself instead of raising every question you have here. How hard would it have been to just type nano and hit enter and then see for yourself?"

You need to take a look at the exchange that went on before and after cactus fired this off. Also in the same thread was this comment: "Seemingly it was too hard, as was 'man nano'." Later in the exchange, cactus writes a small book justifying his comments. If he had put as much work into answering the original question, this thread would not be here today.

Newburn was double-teamed. Cactus, and piran both piled on. And after a while, charlie shuts it down (Move along - nothing to look at here.).

How many times does this have to happen before a guy starts to look elsewhere?

[Mjohnson]

Here is a novel idea:  Why don't some of you high quantity response fellows talk a couple of months off.  Give up responding to the forum as your Lenten abstinence. 

See what happens. 

I somehow think the SME project will continue on and people will get there answers and problems solved. 

What do you have to lose??  From Stephano's view point, it would free up tons of time so he could focus on RL issues.

[Stefano]

OK Stephano, you got me.  You win the contest for being the most rude...and in two languages!!

My Hero!!

do you speak/understand italian? I think no, so, please, don't judge me..

[CharlieBrady]

Everybody, please stop feeding the trolls.

[jester]

I do feel there is room for improvement here. Guessing the contribs.org forums are not the only ones where these issues have arisen over time. Doing a quick search i found a reasonable sounding 'forum code of conduct' from not the least of communities: http://ubuntuforums.org/index.php?page=policy

Let try to get something constructive out of this, please.

The common denominator from both fronts in this discussion sound to me like that nobody thinks that the hand of the newbie has to be held all the way. But the difference lies in (the interpretation of) the message given and also in the way how is pointed out that one has to do some legwork themselves.

Would a workable solution be a set of 'default' moderator responses with a polite piece of text and some good pointers to reading material for the default forum response situations... if that does not result in a constructive response i really feel it's better to not respond at all rather than brushing off the question. After being politely pointed out to the problem with the question and not getting anymore response will more likely cause a newbie to reconsider his/her question or do some research. Being brushed off will cause this kind of discussions.

For a moderator/active members on the forums it's also less work to copy/paste a standard response and to not respond if the question is not elaborated or no more evidence/information is provided than responding with something less appropriate in the eyes of the receiver.

How about it, or a even better idea?! In my opinion we definitely can use a bigger community that might spawn more useful hands rather than scaring anyone away...

[jester]

Hold on to your answers... have to save my dinner from being burnt!

[Stefano]

"Please try and investigate some more yourself instead of raising every question you have here. How hard would it have been to just type nano and hit enter and then see for yourself?"

phredd..  newburns came here on feb, 20th .. before he got such an answer, he opened 6 topic.. I'm sure that he got help in all of them.. and at least he was told to search (even if he got the answers).. so, that said, I think that he was not slammed in any way.. (cfr. here)

do I answer to your question?

[CharlieBrady]

Hold on to your answers...

No, please post them to the separate (constructive) thread opened by Christian:

http://forums.contribs.org/index.php/topic,45647.0.html

[phredd]

phredd..  newburns came here on feb, 20th .. before he got such an answer, he opened 6 topic.. I'm sure that he got help in all of them.. and at least he was told to search (even if he got the answers).. so, that said, I think that he was not slammed in any way.. (cfr. here)

do I answer to your question?

No - there is never an excuse for rudeness.

I am moving over to the new thread. Thank you, jester, for acknowledging that I might have a valid point.

[jester]

No, please post them to the separate (constructive) thread opened by Christian:

Ok, done.

For a constructive response to my post please use the above thread. For some more bashing please answer here  (sorry, couldn't resist)

[Mjohnson]

do you speak/understand italian? I think no, so, please, don't judge me..

Stephano, your arrogance is astounding.  Response quantity and language skills are not the issue.  Interpersonal skills and perception awareness are the issues.

News Flash for Stephano:  It's not ALL about you.

[slords]

This (and the other thread) have gotten out of hand.  Everyone please calm down and take 24 hrs to think about things.  I'm locking this thread just like I did on the other thread.  If another thread like this pops up just to bash people then everyone involved will be warned and possible moderated!