Topic: SME server forum Guidelines

[christian]

Hi folks,
In light of some of the recent "debates" on behaviour, I thought it would be appropriate to raise this.

Just over a year ago, Cactus and I (and a few others too actually) put together some guidelines to help new members to help themselves. This can be found at:
http://wiki.contribs.org/SME_Server:Community

Cactus also raised a bug in the bug tracker to get it implemented as a sticky on the main forum page:
http://bugs.contribs.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4915

I still think this would be a good idea to do and it is modeled after a similar one in another forum I use. I suspect the request got lost somewhere for any number of reasons.

What is the possibility of having this done?

[Stefano]

Christian.. main problem here is that almost all new members never read anything

think about the Don't report problems here sentence

anyway, I will take a look

[jester]

Ok, burned my potatoes but salvaged the most important: my meat!

On suggestion of Charlie linking here. Tried to make some constructive remarks in 'the other' thread.

[phredd]

Christian.. main problem here is that almost all new members never read anything

If almost all new members never read anything, then what you are doing is not working. What's the common denominator here? All the new users, or this site?

Jester pointed us to the Ubuntu forum policy, the first point of which is as follows:

"Be respectful of all users at all times. This means please use etiquette and politeness. Treat people with kindness and gentleness. If you do this the rest of the code of conduct won't need more than a cursory mention."

Notice the words "at all times". I know that it's hard to bite your tongue when someone asks redundant questions that might be easily answered by a search. Who knows why a person would not search? There could be valid reasons.

Better not to say anything at all and let someone with more patience help out.

[jester]

Please people !! Let's not continue the tone of the other thread here.

phredd, I'm not saying the the ubuntu policy is the definite quide... it can be a good starting point though.

Christian.. main problem here is that almost all new members never read anything

This is true.... but what i do read (still being the newbie that i am) are the responses to my questions. And if the (polite) answer given to my question is to search or provide more detail and there are no more responses... one does! Most other responses after that (expect for a good answer) just trigger more questions or start a 'war' because the are unclear or open for interpretation.

This i why i suggested a set of default response to the most common situations (like to little information, the questions being answered before, etc.)

[Stefano]

All the new users, or this site?

phredd: my last answer to you.. the problem is here and in almost every forum out there.. same thing on newsgroup (and thing definitely went worst since web/usenet gateways)

[phredd]

phredd: my last answer to you.. the problem is here and in almost every forum out there.. same thing on newsgroup (and thing definitely went worst since web/usenet gateways)

You do see it everywhere, but that makes it no less acceptable anywhere.

[byte]

I always think if you can't respond "nicely" to a newbie question then don't post at all, lets face it we have all been a newbie at one time or another and have at first not always searched first or read the manuals/guides for whatever reason.

The other trouble is "emotion" of the thread can be mistakenly for being harsh when the replier isn't actually being harsh maybe just misunderstood due to not being English speaking.

[christian]

Christian.. main problem here is that almost all new members never read anything

think about the Don't report problems here sentence

anyway, I will take a look

I appreciate your feedback on the content of the wiki entry.

While I doubt we can solve a 100% of the issues, I think if we make this prominent enough, most will honour it. Further, if someone posts and clearly has not considered this then a simple reply pointing to the forum part of the rule, eg.:

" please read the following before posting: http://wiki.contribs.org/SME_Server:Community#Forums "

would suffice. I think the content of that section says what most people feel.

Personally, if I see a post for help where the person clearly didn't take any time to help themselves, I just pass over it unless I know I can answer it in 30s. For newbies, I'm a little more tolerant and will at least try to point them towards how to find the answer themselves. After all they are just getting oriented and may not have participated in this type of community forum before.

[newburns]

I feel I should say something. After much searching, even searching for Newburns, I came across this thread. Which, I'm guessing, is a subtle continuation of the Rude moderator thread, which is in response to the locked thread on Pico. Hope I got that right. Now what I think is going on is the perspective everyone is missing. I completely understand the other side with just stating "nano". However, I, not having posted on another forum ever, and not knowing the lingo, figured nano was a response to me meaning stop posting, or this question is too small to answer. Just to give a background, I downloaded SME, went crazy, installed as many contribs as I could find, broke a lot of stuff, lost a lot of files, reinstalled, paid some donation, jumped on this forum, and had a crap full of questions I wanted to ask based on my previous trial (as far as me asking so many questions in a short time). Now to clarify the rude part. I was a little upset with the statement that I didn't search the forums for my answer. In truth, I did, and I seen in the SME 8 summary that pico was not available for compatibility reasons. My actual question was did I break something. And if I didn't, I left the code there for other searchers to see and be able to easily install Pico in the SME 8 beta. Even after the statement I did not search, I was fine. But the latter comments making fun of my inability to see that nano was something to be searched is where the rudeness, i believe, came in. If i knew nano was a program, I would have searched it and never asked the question. It just makes me glad I didn't ask my original question of where an Alpine rpm was. My advice, as a noob, and supporter. Just be mindful, we noobs have no clue what you are talking about, and one word answers are not likely to help, unless its code. The result, other searchers will see the answer, not know anything, and start the same question which YOU have already answered, but they do not comprehend the answer to, especially with a one word answer. I do want to thank everyone for their help, because I do appreciate it. But I do feel to ask less questions, and break the server first, then ask a question. Originally I figured to ask a question to prevent a problem. But not too sure.

[christian]

I feel I should say something. After much searching, even searching for Newburns, I came across this thread. Which, I'm guessing, is a subtle continuation of the Rude moderator thread, which is in response to the locked thread on Pico. Hope I got that right.

No it is not though it seems to have spilled over to some extent.

Really, this thread is an attempt to find a better solution. I have made a suggestion in my first post. If it is a good start, then we should link it to the top forum page in some manner. Given it is wiki entry people can then update it as we achieve consensus on acceptable behaviour.

Usually people get into arguments of this form when there aren't clear guidelines on expectations. This is especially true when we have participants from all over the world where modes of interpersonal interaction vary widely. Some societies are very frank and direct others are very sensitive or very polite. One undoubtedly ends up offending the other due to different styles. Quite frankly no society's modes is better than the other, it simply is what it is. I say that as someone who has traveled extensively and has learned to adapt.

So I initiated, and with the significant support of others, a set of guidelines which I thought would set expectations of what is expected within the community. I would appreciate feedback on this approach and perhaps if we have consensus, we can have the site maintainer update the main page as proposed in the bug tracker.

[CharlieBrady]

Christian, thanks for your efforts.

Perhaps you should add a note to your page that "what's XXX" is a question better asked of google than this forum - they have thousands of computers waiting to answer so there is no need to take the time of a person to answer such a simple trivial question.

Since I know you are Canadian, I know that you are familiar with the "third-man-in" rule. I would wish to give a 'game misconduct' to the unhelpful few here who take umbridge on behalf of others, and rail at length against the few here who actually provide help day in and day out. If they wish to help the community, then can do so by actually helping, rather than criticising those who actually lift a hand to help.

I will particularly single out "phredd", otherwise known as "markehle". I would ask anyone interested to find his posts,

http://forums.contribs.org/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=16799
http://forums.contribs.org/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=923

and see how much time he has to help (or "educate") others, compared with how much time he has to criticise. Mark, nothing personal, but please fulfil your promise and go away. Or, before you criticise me, walk a mile in my shoes.  When you have posted, say, 2000 messages helping others with answers, then perhaps I might listen to how you believe I should be posting.

[phredd]

Yup - Busted - I am Mark Ehle. You want to know the real reason I "morphed"? I could not remember my password, and the domain that my email was at for that account no longer exists. Sue me. I got heated when I saw someone being treated in a way that I thought needed some discussion.

If you want to look at ALL my posts, (and no, they are not nearly as numerous as others), I have tried to offer help when I knew the answer. Yes, I have asked many, many more questions than have given answers. When I first discovered SME many years ago, I didn't know squat about Linux. This forum was then a great place to learn. I see less tolerance for that now. I became leery of asking questions. I would doubt that I am alone.

Charlie - I stand by my posts where I took you to task in the past. I know you are the SME super genius here, however, volume of posts does not give one license to be curt with people who annoy you with their lack of knowledge. Lack of volume does not mean a person should be less tolerant of curtness. Maybe you think that such a trivial question as "what's nano?" should not be answered here. I disagree, as do others. A (paying) user had a question, it was answered in a way that was confusing to him, he asked for clarification, and was belittled for it. The fact that you don't see it that way does not change it.

I was hoping that this thread (thank you, christian, for starting it) would help people to realize that no question is stupid. Let's see if it does that.

[janet]

phredd, Mark Ehle
 

I got heated...

It's really time you cool down, and stay that way.
Please stop this type of posting. It does nothing to contribute to the fine community of givers that are here. I believe your answers are displaying immaturity & are very self opinionated. From an English grammatical & dictionary meaning viewpoint, there was nothing wrong or harsh in the posts you criticise. In fact the answers often said "please" and did give answers. The issue is your tolerance of what was said, so please learn to be more tolerant and do not stir things up that do not need to be stirred. OK a few others may agree with you, but I'm sure many more disagree (as have done).

I for one disagree with the criticisms you have made in your posts and I think you are "out of order" in virtually all cases. I believe many others here would also agree with my opinion.

Just because you do not like the way someone answers a question, does not give you carte blanche to continually deride them.

I suggest you start teaching yourself a bit of humility.

As for your apparent attacks on Charlie, every time you have criticized him, I read his posts and said to myself "What a brilliant answer, Charlie seems to have a great skill at homing in on the answer and giving either a very succinct answer or steers the questioner in the direction they should go or look". When you chatise him, I find myself laughing at the ever so subtle humour and wit he seems (to me) to inject into his replies. I marvel at his technical skills and accuracy in correcting posting errors or incorrect claims that people make. I can only think of a few times where I disagreed with Charlie, and I don't think Charlie was in error at all, but had perhaps misinterpreted the OPs question or situation, something we have all done I think, due perhaps to the many different language groups that users of these forums come from.

Such is human peception that two people (you and me) can see someones posts so differently.

[Paul Howard]

Getting back to Christians initial post. I agree with a sticky post on top of every board with a topic indicating to read this post before posting is a good idea. I must admit I did not spot http://wiki.contribs.org/SME_Server:Community on the wiki.

[cactus]

Getting back to Christians initial post. I agree with a sticky post on top of every board with a topic indicating to read this post before posting is a good idea. I must admit I did not spot http://wiki.contribs.org/SME_Server:Community on the wiki.

It is still a hidden gem as Christian and I worked on it but never 'released' it to the community. If we agree on a sticky on every forum I can do so.

[christian]

It is still a hidden gem as Christian and I worked on it but never 'released' it to the community. If we agree on a sticky on every forum I can do so.

Sorry to disappear; I was traveling again!

Cactus, I believe that was your original suggestion in the bug tracker and I'm fine with this. Per my comment in the bug as well, the way CentOS does it is to have its own category at the top level, as per:
http://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/index.php?cat=3

I'm fine either way you wish to proceed.

[johnp]

Adding a sticky would be a step forward, but I don't know if it will be read. Maybe something that will redirect to such info before asking may be better. If there is a captcha requirement, maybe some sticky or info page sould be too.

[sal1504]

Everyone

I to have used the forum and have received some excellent support and I have received some "rude" remarks. I love SME and have it installed at many clients. I try to answer questions as I can, typically on hardware compatibilty. The reason I post on the forum before posting on the bugtracker is because I am not sure whether my problem is a user error or an sme error. So far they have all been user error or compatibility issues with hardware. I research my issues both on this forum and many other linux forums (centos, redhat, ubuntu, etc.) before posting on the web. The statement made about newbies NEVER reading is just Stefano being Stefano. Here is something we should all consider. SME Server survives on donations. The more people you piss off with rude remarks the less chance of getting donations from Newbies, myself included. Even though I have donated before I probably would donate more if there wasn't the fear of being yelled at because I wasn't sure if my question belongs in a bugtracker or not. I think that a friendlier forum would help support SME better.

Sal

[Stefano]

The statement made about newbies NEVER reading is just Stefano being Stefano

please define, preferably via PM, thank you

[christian]

Hi Sal,
While I'm sure you want to make a point, I would appreciate it if you didn't hi-jack this thread to do so. It is not good etiquette. This thread is focused on a defining a constructive solution. Comments in that vein are welcome.
Christian

[CharlieBrady]

SME Server survives on donations.

That is not true. The contribs.org website stays on-line due to donations. SME Server survives (barely) due to unpaid labour by a small pool of regular contributors.

[sal1504]

Charlie and Christian

I am trying to offer a constructive observation, that in order to grow it is better not offend your users with kurt conversation and rude remarks. I have owned my consulting firm for 20 years, if I was asked a technical question by one of my customers and I told him to read the manual or post his question on a bug tracker he would laugh in my face and get some other company to do his work. So goes it with SME. Although SME is, in my opinion one of the best Distro for my customers, it is not the only one. If i am looking for a software to use for my customers one of the first things I look for is how easy is it for me to get support and answers to my questions. If I see submit this to the bug tracker or read the manual, or remarks like the one Stefano makes ( on a regular basis). I will look for something else. When I first started using SME this forum was one of the best on the net. Unfortunately it has gone down in quality. I am recommending that the tone of this forum becomes more friendly. You will find an increase in donations both in the form of money and people willing to contribute time to help. Charlie when I said "survived on donations" i meant both money and labour. Stefano I once before told you were rude. That is what I meant when I said that's Stefano being Stefano.


I hope what i am saying will be taken  constructively.


Sal

[CharlieBrady]

I have owned my consulting firm for 20 years, if I was asked a technical question by one of my customers and I told him to read the manual or post his question on a bug tracker he would laugh in my face and get some other company to do his work.

What if you were asked the technical question by a passer-by on the street? The difference here is that you are not my customer. If you were my customer, I might respond to your questions differently.

Please think about it. They way that your business works is not a perfect analogy.

If you wish to answer technical questions without referring people to read the manual or to post bug reports to the bug tracker, then you are welcome to.

[sal1504]

Charlie

We do offer free 5 minute technical support to people who are not our customers. Because we do this we have landed some of our largest clients. I answered a networking question to this guy at a party and he was the CEO of a medical clinic that is now a $125000 a year plus hardware client. They have purchased 13 servers and 250 windows workstations from me since I took the time to answer a question two years ago. I quess what I am trying to say is it is just as easy to be nice as it is to be rude and has a better out come everytime. Also like I said I try to answer questions if I have the answer and I would like to think that other users of this forum would do the same. If you don't want to answer the questions then just ignore them, it would be a more positive response then some of the crap that is posted.

Stefano, I have said this on this forum before and will say it one more time,  you are without a doubt one of the rudest people on this forum and  if you did not respond to any of the questions this forum would be 100% better.

I have now said my piece and will end with, SME is without a doubt a great product and I hope that this negative attitude on the forum does not kill the product but if it does oh well there are other products.

Sal

[cactus]

Stefano, I have said this on this forum before and will say it one more time,  you are without a doubt one of the rudest people on this forum and  if you did not respond to any of the questions this forum would be 100% better.

Please,refrain from this behavior yourself. Making accusations like that is not helping either and counter-intuitive to your plea IMHO.[/quote]

You will find an increase in donations both in the form of money and people willing to contribute time to help.

I think you are making wrong assumptions here. The last year more people have stepped up to do development and more people have taken the effort to do verification on bugs, despite the so called less friendly attitude. I think the community is changing as well, since more and more smaller users are coming into the SME Server community. Their background is different, knowledge is lower, or not up to par and I think a lot, amongst which I am as well, think that you need to some work yourself. Studying the documentation is one of them.

It is not a problem that you do not know everything, no one does, it is a problem that you do not want to learn anything by investing yourself. I tend to think there are people on these forums who think it is way easier to just shoot out a question and wait for the answers.
My time is precious and can only be spent once, if I know the answer and it is already been documented I feel no lust to rewrite it again, so I try and provide a link to the documentation accompanied by an encouragement to read it, at least twice.

[sal1504]

cactus

you are right i should NOT belittle myself by stooping to the level of others. Sorry but I was trying to make a point of how it feels to be treated rudely by some on this forum. There are several people on this forum that have the right attitude, you, mary, charlie are a few. Instead of just throwing out a comment a about how lazy some people are you take the time to point us to an article or a document with a possible fix. I am glad that there is more involvement I was responding to apparently inaccurate information posted by Charlie (The contribs.org website stays on-line due to donations. SME Server survives (barely) due to unpaid labour by a small pool of regular contributors). I do my research before posting. I limit myself to two days to research then if I do not have an anwer I post it. One of the things I find distracting in researching problems on SME is the format of the bug tracker. I can not be specific about what is wrong I just find it hard to use and time consuming. I guess I don't feel it is organized very well, this is just my opinion.

Sal

[Stefano]

Sal, I just took some time to think how to answer you..

as you (maybe) know I'm not a english mothertongue, so, maybe, some time I write simply translating my italian thoughts into english.. the words I choose could be correct.. but there's no intention to offend no-one

anyway, each time I answer here I try to do my best.. as you can see from my profile I did start only a few topics (i.e. few questions).. and I can't really think I wrote more than 3 thousands messages of crap

you said:

I have owned my consulting firm for 20 years, if I was asked a technical question by one of my customers and I told him to read the manual or post his question on a bug tracker he would laugh in my face and get some other company to do his work

well, first of all this is a forum, a free forum, not an helpdesk.. if I am a customer of yours I expect you to know how to help me.. then I pay you.. anyway, sometime it's necessary to tell your customers to read the documentation, so I did with mine.. and no one of them left me; the problem seems to be on your side

anyway, in this forum there are people from everywhere (from italy and mexico AFAIR, but for sure from other countries) that had free consultancy from me to rebuild their servers after big issues (try to remove smeserver-clamav with yum and give Y and then you know what I'm talking about).. hours of work simply to help someone.. and to improve my skills and my troubleshooting ability

then, am I rude? sorry, I'm sorry.. but you are not better than me.. I asked you to contact me (I have public email/site), you prefer to continue here..

you hide yourself behind a coward nickname, I use my real name, my real email.. if you search a little with google you can easily find my address, my surname..

if you are not satisfied with this support, you can always start to pay for it (contact me in private), start making donation to the project or simply return the money you have spent and leave..

you use words like "crap, rude" referring to me and my posts.. I expect some clarification from you via PM, skype or msn.. but, since I do the effort to write in english, I ask you to do in italian, to make you understand the difficulty.
I hope your italian is as good as my english is.

finally about

I am trying to offer a constructive observation..
..
I hope what i am saying will be taken  constructively.

I think this has nothing constructive; it seems to be a simple flame bite..

please, seriously, take this out of the forums..

Stefano

p.s. after the "rude moderators" 3ad, Mjohnson contacted  me on skype.. some well spent time clarifying ourselves, no problem.

[sal1504]

Sorry to all i have offended. I now see the complications for running a forum with multi-country affiliation. What I was trying to point out, if you can't offer a civil suggestion than don't post. End of conversation.

Sal

[CharlieBrady]

What I was trying to point out, if you can't offer a civil suggestion than don't post.

I think the only one I have seen here being uncivil is you Sal. I have also reviewed your posts, and you have asked for voluminous help, and offered very little in return. If you wish to help our here, then please do, but please refrain from criticising those who do the heavy lifting here on a regular basis.

Stefano, please keep up the good work. And I'm sorry that you had to waste your time defending yourself.

[johnp]

In an attempt to get this back on topic Besides dealing with others from foreign lands, you are also dealing with people with technical background's.

If you don't know the tone of technical writing, it tends to be terse. So the response may be similar.

To pimp a brother like you did sal1504 just ain't right


JHMO