Topic: Backup Hardware

[Paperguides]

I have been successfully using Iomega REV drives for backup at some of my customers but recently Iomega have discontinued the drives.    Media (Disks) is still available but for how long?

Can anyone suggest a suitable replacement for REV Drives? e.g. an internal drive that uses small robust removalable media

Tony

[Stefano]

the one and only media to backup to is..

T A P E

buy an used lto drive, a scsi card, some tape cartridge and you'll discover a new world

my 2€c

[philbrearley]

I would use external USB hard Drives.
These are quite cheap nowadays.  Have quite hight capacity. They are reliable.
250GB being common, at least in England. They don't require any hardware to be replaced, and..
The in-built backup routine can schedule an overnight backup to them.
I personnally use Toshiba 250GB

Phil.

[jester]

Tape drives are the best but also quite expensive (on the other hand, the tapes are inexpensive).

Lately RDX drives have been popping up. They are more or less the same thing as REV but with bigger cartridges and more storage capacity. Never used them though, but i guess SME will see them as RRD drives as well.... you might have to add a custom file to have it mount as an usbdisk (see: http://bugs.contribs.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2972) to be able use them as backup device.

[mercyh]

the one and only media to backup to is..

T A P E

How about a friendly discussion on this one?

What happens when the server is blown away in the wind, tape drive and all? You have that tape at home but nothing to access it with.........

[Stefano]

Tape drives are the best but also quite expensive (on the other hand, the tapes are inexpensive).

Lately RDX drives have been popping up. They are more or less the same thing as REV but with bigger cartridges and more storage capacity. Never used them though, but i guess SME will see them as RRD drives as well.... you might have to add a custom file to have it mount as an usbdisk (see: http://bugs.contribs.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2972) to be able use them as backup device.

the main issue is that it is a proprietary tech.. let's say you choose REV in the past.. now Iomega have discontinued, exactly like zip and jaz.. and what about RDX?

when you have to choose the way to backup your data, you should look for something that is a standard..

[Stefano]

How about a friendly discussion on this one?

here I am

What happens when the server is blown away in the wind, tape drive and all? You have that tape at home but nothing to access it with.........

well, you buy another tape drive and restore your data.. that's all..
what about fried hd? or.. "ops, it's doing a strange 'clikety clickety' noise?"

tape cartridge is the best plave where store your data.. it can hit the ground and nothing happen.. try to do it with your hd

on the other side, tape drives are quite expensive.. well, ebay is right here

at home I'm using  adlt scsi 15/30 Gb since.... 2005.. on the same tapes.. not a problem

[mercyh]

well, you buy another tape drive and restore your data.. that's all..

If you are really lucky you may get it overnight... otherwise 3 days.

I think there is a place for tape, but when looking at disaster recovery, you may need something else also if you need to get back in business in less then 72hrs...

[Stefano]

If you are really lucky you may get it overnight... otherwise 3 days.

yes, but how do you get your new server in few hours?

[mercyh]

Ahhh....
and there is the beauty of SME, You restore it on an old workstation until the new server comes in.

It is perhaps a little slower then the old production machine but give me 2 hrs with a "working"  harddrive based backup and I am back in business.  (I have tested it and I know it can be done)

[Stefano]

ok, I know what you mean..

[mercyh]

what about fried hd? or.. "ops, it's doing a strange 'clikety clickety' noise?"

That's why backup is not a "set it up and forget it" operation.

The built in backup will send an email every single day that tells if the operation was successful or not.
 

[mercyh]

Actually, I like to prolong these types of threads a bit as the more times people read the word BACKUP, maybe the higher possibility that they will actually do it.... 

[Stefano]

That's why backup is not a "set it up and forget it" operation.

sure, you are right

The built in backup will send an email every single day that tells if the operation was successful or not.
 

I know, I use it on almost each server (almost, because in some case I use a custom script)

but hds are fragile.. there are mechanical and electrical parts.. a little shock and.. it's gone

so, if you want really backup your data, you use something different.. all IMVHO

[janet]

Dear All

Backup methods depend on the users requirements.

Other than tape consider these.

Very popular with support people these days are the small size (desktop) USB drives, they are relatively robust compared to earlier models ie they are meant to be portable, so do have a high degree of built in shock tolerance eg from poor handling & dropping, although of course it's better not to drop them.

They are also reasonably cost effective, so you would buy 2 at minimum and swap them each day, or eg buy four disks, one disk for each week, and rotate them weekly over a 4 week period.
The exact cycling depends on your backup needs. If the data must be removed off site every night and retained for a week, then you need five USB drives, and cycle them again next week.

Also not yet mentioned in this thread is Affa. You create a offsite backup server using SME, install and configure Affa, see the Contribs wiki article, and you backup daily (or more often) via Internet connection. It runs unattended (which is a great plus), and you can keep many backups eg for as long as a year (depending on disk size), and restore from whichever date you want to, including single file restores done remotely if required.

The initial full backup is best done onsite, due to the long time it will take if there is a large amount of data on the live server, and then move the backup server offsite & reconfigure accordingly. It is fairly easy to setup. Then affa does daily (or more often if specified) incremental backups of data that has changed.

To do a restore in the event of a major server failure, you deliver or have couriered the server from the offsite location, and "rise" Affa so that the backup server becomes the live server.
Alternatively restore from the Affa server backup to a newly built live server via LAN connection.
Obviously obtaining and building a new server hardware takes time, so the Affa "rise" feature is great for quickly getting a production server running again using the same backup server hardware, until more time can be spent obtaining new live system hardware etc. A typical rise takes about 20 minutes as very little data is copied.
If your remote server is located in the same city then it's only an hour or two to get the backup server couriered to the live site, and 20 more minutes to have it up and running.

It's also good to have multiple backups in case something goes wrong with one backup method in the event of a server crash & critical data loss eg onsite USB drive or two, plus offsite affa unattended backup.

For archiving backups, copy data to DVD's or maybe blue rays disks, there is nothing else really suitable that is cheap except tapes (but the tape hardware is more costly to start with).

Your requirements will for sure vary and the justification for implementing different methods will also vary.

Check the Contribs & Howtos Backup category for other methods too.

I also backup to a removeable hard disk in a workstation, and rotate the disks daily.

[Paperguides]

My thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread.

It has given me several things to think about.

1) I need to phase out backup systems using the Iomega drives fairly soon.  The major concerns for my customers are theft of equipment and/or fire.  In both cases the device to restore the data has gone and no new devices are available. I know I can probably get one on ebay but how quickly?

2) The point about proprietary hardware is very relevant. In general I will be thinking very carefully before specifying any backup solution in the future.

3) I looked at ebay and the price of tape hardware is relatively high.  e.g. the backup device is as expensive as the basic server. Is it better to buy new or are these devices reliable enough to go 2nd user?

I already use on-site "off-site" backup i.e. installing a NAS device in another office on the trading estate maybe I should be looking to do this more.

Thanks again for the comments.

Tony

[elmarconi]

My (2 x) 2 cents:

- Use RAID. Might save you from harddisk failures.
- Use multiple portable USB disks. Remember, one backup disk is no backup. Rotate!
- Use both on-site and off-site NAS.
- Use AFFA. Very flexible. Snapshots are essential. Users delete files, and after a month or so they ask...
- Test the disaster recovery once and a while and make perfect notes of it as you tend to forget the little tweaks...

Last: If both the server + buildings with backup NAS and your home with rotated USB disks have all gone up in flames, you probably have something else to worry about... 

[StuC]

I too tend to think in locations, media types (spindles) and recovery time.
Look to increase the first two and reduce the last.
If location 1 media type 1 has flood/fire/theft it should be inconvenient not dramatic, same with location 2 or media type 2.

If your storage needs are not too excessive Affa is just fantastic and having a simple SME install as a virtual machine dedicated to that task it can take little CPU resources until needed.
I'm definitely not saying use that as first line backup but in the event of local hardware failure to keep everyone working it's brilliant.
It can replace the original server after failure in minutes (affa-rise) then you can concentrate on recovering hardware or pulling other backups from off-site storage. Then just use affa to migrate again to the new rebuilt hardware.

Throw a hypothetical meteor at each of your storage locations and then think how long it would take to recover.

[piran]

The major concerns for my customers are theft of equipment and/or fire. In both
cases the device to restore the data has gone and no new devices are available.

Offsite. Any method, any transport, any mechanism... just offsite.

2) The point about proprietary hardware is very relevant. In general I will
be thinking very carefully before specifying any backup solution in the future.

Not just proprietary hardware but technical obsolescence - particularly in the
long term. My magneto-optical (MO) discs were superb. However I burnt out
half a dozen drives (the electronics, nothing mechanical) in fewer years.
Shelves full of (probably) perfect MO discs here ~ nothing to run 'em in.
Pick something VERY "broad". My ancient CDRs are still readable, peer
CDRWs rather less so. Ditto DVDRs even the early 2x iterations read.
A few years back I'd put my expectation into Blu-ray (BD), particularly
the 50GB stuff, but I'm still waiting as BD just not taking off in the
right way. In a decade the current flavours of USB connections may
not be favoured or even technically supported, so consider expected
lifetimes of the actual technology! For massive backups, my usual kind,
I'm considering a shelf full of redundant arrays of inexpensive drives.
No, not RAID, but actual shelves of drives each used like books and
slotted into a workshop bare drive toaster-like slot device. Choosing
the formatted OS is going to be tricky.

3) I looked at ebay and the price of tape hardware is relatively high. 
e.g. the backup device is as expensive as the basic server. Is it better
to buy new or are these devices reliable enough to go 2nd user?

Tape is for corporates ie those who can afford them and for those to whom
that feature set is appropriate. Tape transports are intricate, heads wear out,
tape has all sorts of intrinsic issues. Having said that I used to use tapes in
the last millennium and relied utterly on their effectiveness. Various issues
became insurmountable (cost, data transfer rate, media supply) and that
technology was regretfully dropped. Still have two transports, one from the
early 90s but driver card, supported bus technology and fashion has moved on...

I already use on-site "off-site" backup i.e. installing a NAS device in another office on
the trading estate maybe I should be looking to do this more.

Yes, offsite, with multiple iterations of NAS.

AFFA is excellent, I used to use it intensely, but is it still being maintained?

[mercyh]

I think we need to separate Data Archiving and Data Backup for the purpose of this discussion. If backup jobs are MONITORED EVERY SINGLE DAY, I don't see that backup hard drive failure is such an issue. The failure should be caught on the very first day that it happens. At the moment when this is discovered, you have no backup from the last day but the server is still working fine. The odds that the server"s hard drive will fail on the same day that the backup hard drive fails is long indeed. If this should actually happen and you are rotating drives, you still have yesterdays backup. (add in the odds of this third hard drive failing on the same day as the others and you have a risk level I can live with  )

[piran]

Good point. Some of my backup activity is at the extreme end.
For instance I 'can' generate 25GB (images) in a day's shoot.
Those backups almost inevitably become de facto archives.
Thus backing up almost blurs into archiving. Yes, I would find
and fix a drive issue when found recently ie 'doing backups'.
But searching for an album set a few years later and that drive
issue (if unfound back then etc) in the 'archive' might get serious.
Hiving out, say 25GB 'massive' backup runs, on rotating sets
encompassing an eventual archive gets to be seriously tedious.
So, here, backup logistics must fulfil or appease archive criteria.
The server and workstations get conventional daily 'backups',
with my sort of storage bins it's only a relatively low capacity.
The photographic library stuff gets massive backup/archive runs.

Another part of the discussion probably should include logistics
covering the disposal of that backup/archive hardware's media.
I'm still finding and feeding my old floppy discs through a
heavy duty double action shredder. Sony have announced
they will now stop production ~ so that's it then. Same
shredder does the CDR and DVDr stuff ~ despite the din.
Disposing of the tapes is quite easy but cartridges do
contain an utterly surprising physical unwrapped volume
of tape. I doubt the environmentalists out there would
approve of the eventual disposal procedure but it involves
my enclosed log burning stove... Hard drives have to await
a stoic afternoon's worth of angle grinding manic madness.

[robwellesley]

AFFA is excellent, I used to use it intensely, but is it still being maintained?

We've tested it with Sme 8 and it works, since the samba issue below was 'fixed'

http://bugs.contribs.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5851

[piran]

We've tested it with Sme 8 and it works, since the samba issue below was 'fixed'

http://bugs.contribs.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5851

That "it works" does not properly answer "Is it still being maintained?",
so putting it another way " Who is actively maintaining AFFA nowadays?".

[janet]

piran

Plead read available published information,
http://wiki.contribs.org/Affa
Both questions answered on line 1 & 2

> Is it still being maintained?
> Who is actively maintaining AFFA

[piran]

piran

Plead read available published information,
http://wiki.contribs.org/Affa
Both questions answered on line 1 & 2

> Is it still being maintained?
> Who is actively maintaining AFFA

"...actively..."
Please read the history tab.
http://wiki.contribs.org/index.php?title=Affa&action=history

[Stefano]

"...actively..."
Please read the history tab.
http://wiki.contribs.org/index.php?title=Affa&action=history

please explain.. thank you

[piran]

please explain.. thank you

What is it you wish explained?

[Stefano]

What is it you wish explained?

the meaning of you previous post, for example..

IIUC you are saying that affa is not actively maintained.. why?

[piran]

the meaning of you previous post, for example..

IIUC you are saying that affa is not actively maintained.. why?

People, including you, are putting this as my words.
I have asked if AFFA is being actively maintained,
I have not said that is not being maintained.
* I see no activity in the history tab of the wiki.
* Development seems to have stopped at rc4.
* I've had no responses from AFFA's Michael.
Hence my query whether AFFA is actively maintained.
AFFA is EXCELLENT. I used to use it for much work
but have moved my stuff away from relying on it.
Inactive maintenance is not the best news for backups
but is potentially bad for long term archives... backup
methodology being this thread's core discussion topic.