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Backup Advice Needed

Offline Charles2008

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Backup Advice Needed
« on: February 28, 2013, 02:47:40 PM »
After testing SME8 for a number of months and reading & learning as much as I can from the forum posts (thank you), I am ready to put SMEserver in to production in our start-up micro-business. We are very cost-conscious (read broke) hence my GBP 500 budget:

We currently have 3 users, going up to 5 short term (12-18 months) and perhaps 7-10 in 3 years (by which time I hope to have replaced servers etc).

I have bought the following hardware second-hand:
Server A (SA) - Main server located in office: HP ML115 G5 AMD Opteron Quad-core 2.2 Ghz, 4 Gb RAM + 1x 500GB Samsung HDD (eBay GBP85)
Server B (SB)- Back-up server, located at home: HP ML115 G5 AMD Opteron Dual-core 2.2 Ghz, 2 Gb RAM (eBay GBP40)

My current plan is:
1) to run AFFA (I have no experience with this, just have read v positive comments here) as the back up.
2) After looking at the advice here  -> software RAID-1 + 'hot spare' on both machines
3) to buy 3 new fastish 500 Gb HDD's for SA (500GB 3.5" Western Digital Enterprise RE4 7200rpm 64MB Cache Sata II - GBP 70 x3)
4) to transfer the 500Gb Samsung HDD from SA to SB and buy 2 more 500Gb HDD's second hand off eBay (probably GBP 15 each)

We will run our email, accounts, crm and wiki on here initially. Later perhaps a wholesale website, photo gallery etc

I have a couple of questions :
- if I run server B as a remote AFFA back-up, can I use it as a local server also (at home for personal type things)?
- Am I 'covered' for back-up with this plan, or do I need to do an occasional local backup to external drive and or copy to DVD?

Is this a reasonable set-up?

I would very much appreciate any feedback, negative or positive. I recognise that I am very inexperienced at this (but enthusiastic).
Thanks for any responses.
Charles


« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 03:02:51 PM by Charles2008 »

Offline janet

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Re: Backup Advice Needed
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2013, 04:04:23 PM »
Charles2008

Quote
if I run server B as a remote AFFA back-up, can I use it as a local server also (at home for personal type things)?

Yes, with provisos.
When the need to do a Restore occurs, then just restoring from the backup server to the main server is OK, all local server data & functionality will be retained.
If you ever want to "rise" that backup machine you will wipe out all the local server information. Rise means Affa rise, where the backup data on the backup machine is used to "recreate" a fully functioning copy of the main server, so the backup server can be quickly put into situ to replace the main server, in the event of a catastrophic failure.
I cannot remember exactly now if all local data is retained and can be reused after the risen server is no longer needed, read the Affa wiki to check.

A comment I would add, is that if you have large amounts of changeable data every day, then you can use up lots of data allowance on your office & home ASDL accounts. It can also take a considerable time to perform the rsync backup across the Internet. eg if you add a couple of 1Gb files on a daily basis, then that's a lot of data moving across the net every night. If you know your data will only change by a up to few hundred Mb every day, that that is tolerable, depending of course on the speed of your connections & how much "free or included" data allowance you have in your plans.

Quote
Am I 'covered' for back-up with this plan, or do I need to do an occasional local backup to external drive and or copy to DVD?

It depends on your data security model. In any good backup model, multiple redundant backups is the norm. So minimally I would say, have a local USB drive connected which also performs a monthly, weekly (or even daily if preferred) backup. You might even consider having a second USB backup drive that can be rotated. This may seem redundant if you have a remote Affa server, but more backups is better. If one fails you always have the other. Backups on USB disks can also use Affa & you can retain backup data for a year (depending on data size & disk size etc).
If you need archival backups that may need to be used or referred to in 1 or 2 or 3 years, then disk or DVD copies are also necessary.
Affa on the backup server could potentially retain a few years of data also (depending on data & disk size limits), but that is your only backup copy then, so it all really depends how "sure you want to be".

You will need to carefully think about backup scheduling if you choose to run multiple backups on the main server, so that backup jobs do not run at the same time, and allow for larger unexpected backups that will take longer. A weekly full plus daily incremental is appropriate.

Before going the Affa backup server route, you may even want to just use local USB disk backups for simplicity

Another consideration is ease or speed of restoration of services, and replacement (restore) of individual files. Depending on your situation, that may be easy or hard using a backup server. It is easy technically, but your local conditions and expert user availability etc, may cause difficulties, so maybe a local USB copy could be easier and quicker under certain circumstances.

You know all the variables & criteria of your situation, so you are the one who can best answer these requirements.
Please search before asking, an answer may already exist.
The Search & other links to useful information are at top of Forum.

Offline Charles2008

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Re: Backup Advice Needed
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2013, 04:29:23 PM »
Mary, thank you for such a comprehensive and helpful reply.

" ... but your local conditions and expert user availability " - that's me I'm afraid  :-)

In the UK the legislation about keeping accounting records available for tax authority inspection requires that they be kept for 6 years (and many advise longer). This will require periodic copying to DVD (at 5GB a disc, is this even feasible? 50 GB ok, but 500GB?). This coupled with the fact that I want to move to a far more 'paperless' working environment will mean that I have to be confident about making local DVD copies. This may be easier if I use either the SME built-in back up or BackupPC  and also save to a local external drive (say 1TB)- what would anyone advise.

I am keen on AFFA because I don't have to remember to do it ! (a BIG plus for me) and that it is remote.

I have become aware that in the UK, the theft of invoice records from offices is on the sharp increase. Without your invoice copies, there will be a terrible time with the tax people. IMHO AFFA offers a more secure (short term) business record storage solution than paper. They can steal all the files, and all the computers (even that 1 TB external drive hanging off the ML115), but hopefully I will have it ALL carefully stored at home ready for the insurance cheque.

I suppose that one of the advantages of using BackupPC (of which, I have no experience) is that I could also back-up the office PC's & Mac's, all to one location.

Is there any conflict between using AFFA and BackupPC on the same server box?

Backup is so essential, but doesn't appear simple.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 04:45:16 PM by Charles2008 »

Offline janet

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Re: Backup Advice Needed
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2013, 06:16:26 PM »
Charles2008

Quote
This will require periodic copying to DVD (at 5GB a disc, is this even feasible? 50 GB ok, but 500GB?)

I am involved with public accounting, so understand the critical need for ordinary backups, and archival backups which can be retrieved years later.
I create seperate WinRAR backups of selected critical accounting data & burn those to 3 DVD's every month. These backups are made daily & monthly to a backup ibay on sme server, so they form part of the normal sme server daily backup. I should comment the accounting software & data is on a seperate Windows server due to lack of compatibility with Linux. Manually once a month they get burnt to DVD's. It's a slow process waiting around for the burn to finish, even with modern fast computers and drives.

I do a full backup of the Window server (using Ghost) to the sme server, so it also forms part of the daily sme server backup.
You can see I already have multiple redundant backups happening within the office, and I use Ghost to periodically backup all the workstations to the sme server too. Your comments about BackupPC are similar to what I do.

I have also been using small USB drives just for this purpose as an archival storage media. When the first drive is full put it away for long term storage, buy another mini USB drive and start again. Those drives are relatively cheap nowadays, and there are considerable time savings over burning to DVD (my time is money).
Evidence suggests that long term media storage is more reliable on USB drives compared to DVD media, and is MUCH faster to save & retrieve data.

The above is all seperate to sme backups, which I do to local USB disks on a daily rotating basis using Affa, so I have two backup disks, and even a third one which I occasionally swap in (monthly or 3 monthly). The daily changeable data is too big for reliable and time/cost effective Affa backups to a remote Affa backup server, although I have done it that way, and still do it in some situations.


Quote
I am keen on AFFA because I don't have to remember to do it ! (a BIG plus for me) and that it is remote.

Yes Affa is ideal for those reasons, but there are other ways (ie software tools) to achieve the same.
If you ONLY use a remote Affa backup server, then you are very reliant on one backup point. If your house burns down or the backup server is stolen or damaged etc, then ALL your backups are gone. Think about backing up your Affa backup server & removing those backups off site, preferably not to the office site (will the loop ever end).


Quote
Is there any conflict between using AFFA and BackupPC on the same server box?

I have ran both of them seperately, but not together, so not sure.
I think the main conflict would be scheduling so that backup jobs do not overlap, ie especially in the event that the first job to run takes much longer than normal due to extra data etc, and then crashes into a later time scheduled BackupPC job. I suppose you could script the cron jobs so that the second backup only runs after the first has finished, but it gets more complicated then.

Quote
Backup is so essential, but doesn't appear simple.

I think you are initially trying to bite off too much in one go and come up with all the answers immediately, before the event. That's good planning, but if you have not used these solutions before, then you are planning "in the dark" so to speak.
I suggest you start simple with a local USB or two, then grow from there.
Once that is running add the Affa server. Once that is stable then look at backing up local PC's etc or specialised archival storage answers etc etc.
Please search before asking, an answer may already exist.
The Search & other links to useful information are at top of Forum.

Offline Charles2008

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Re: Backup Advice Needed
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2013, 07:11:50 PM »
Mary, thank you for your 'real world' perspective. That was excellent, a real belter - I feel all backed-up myself now. Back-up's of back-up's and Windows back-up's and more back-up's  ...  I'm going to have to sit down and re-read that a few times.

Well, I was feeling pretty adventurous with my AFFA and even a bit dizzy with the added BackupPC jag  ....  I just gotta take it easy for a bit here  8-)

I am going to re-read that a few times more before I can come back with anything sensible.

BTW - thank you VERY much for taking the time to share that with me (us).
Charles

Offline Charles2008

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Re: Backup Advice Needed
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2013, 10:55:34 PM »
Mary,
One of my issues is, that I want to be able to be away from the office for longish periods of time (week +) and not be worrying about backups. I need backups to be as automatic as possible.

One area that has been nagging away at me is the Cloud and the possibility of backing up to/from it. I suppose the 'large file size' argument works against that, but perhaps no more so than a remote AFFA back-up box.

We do and will continue to have the occasional (once per quarter or half-year) need to archive large files of photographs (perhaps 2GB +/-). This again lends itself to local storage.

Have I understood your (impressive) back-up routine correctly:
1. Accounting data - backed-up (Ghost) to an ibay daily and burnt to 3x DVD's monthly.
2. Workstations - Periodical back-up (Ghost) of all office workstations to ibay on SMEserver.
3. Windows server - daily back-up (Ghost) to ibay and burnt to USB-drive (SME-backup) - (frequency? USB-pendrive or external USB-HDD?). USB-drive archived.
4. SMEserver - LARGE nightly (guessing) back-up to local external USB-HDD using AFFA - rotating 2 ext-USB-HDD's daily (+1 monthly/quarterly). Back-up too big for AFFA remote.

That really is 'belt and braces' enterprise back-up. Are those USB-pendrives in No.3? Also what capacity are the USB-drives?

What sort of 'rule-of-thumb' can one use regarding compression % for back-ups i.e. how many GB is a  back-up of 100GB of data?
I had assumed, BackupPC 10-20%, SME-backup 50%, AFFA - don't know.

Also, I read somewhere that a rough guide for BackupPC is 50% of all storage in the machines on the network being backed up. Does this sound right?

You are right, I am flying in the dark.

Offline piran

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Re: Backup Advice Needed
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2013, 01:21:35 AM »
Charles, you need to get your feet wet.

BackupPC and AFFA are OK together per se... but
there are other gotchas... like multiple network sessions,
overlapping sessions, network inactivity due to excessive
'gap' planning, CPU utilisation, timeouts et al.

BackupPC does its thing to its own drive which therefore
needs to be REALLY big ...yours are apparently not. It's
can be complicated to get 'just right' ...if you've the time.
I've never been quite happy with the way it is scheduled
(or not) and had difficulty then assigning it session slots.

Have never favoured USB drives citing reliability, ID,
needing to be present and heavy use of resources
particularly when writing to them.

AFFA is great but no longer specifically maintained
for SME and now has its own internet site/support.

Sort of similar with BackupPC, I found it complex.

Hook a NAS box or similar on to your intranet in a place
somewhere different and therefore safe for diversity.
I then use http://wiki.contribs.org/DAR2 for simplicity.
It runs unattended and does its thing to the NAS box.
By deliberately using one with a 100Mbit interface this
keeps the resources used on the server very low and
over the network (but can be run any time). The bigger
stuff uses a 1Gbit NAS and is corresponding heavier on
server and network resources.

I duplicate stuff over to windows workstation for some
further diversity. Ditto offline DVDs and a cupboard full
of offline slot-in HDDs on an 'open-toaster-slot' engineering
bench bare HDD box (fast, cheap, cheerful) particularly
for periodic quarterly backups of everything for offline.

Forget compression... at least until you've got your feet
wet and seen just what it does to your server resources.
And tried to keep other stuff from working or using your
server's resources concurrently. The nightly ClamAV and
any backup application using compression and even low
Apache web site serving can bog things down in utils
factors of 5 or a headache inducing 12 ...very quickly;-/

2GB of images? We have to cope with some 5TB which
can change at any time or not at all for maybe a decade.
Planning has to be somewhat elastic to cope.

6 years? I was 'advised' 7+ years for HM Revenue.

Keep it (REALLY) simple, get your feet wet and TEST.

Offline hawk

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Re: Backup Advice Needed
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2013, 04:52:36 AM »
hi a different spin on things, here in south africa theft of computer equipment from offices is a huge problem, also ADSL is not 100% reliable, so on a lot of sites i use a NAS drive. either bolted to the wall, in a safe or a strong room, connected with cable or wireless.  i use the standard workstation backup that comes with sme. I have had several servers stolen and have restored successfully without issue. works great for me and i don't have hdd space problems.
another tip you might find interesting on security most of my site i actually bolt the server to the shelf, desk, cabinet,  thieves don't have time to sit and remove bolts, so if they cant pick it up in a hurry they leave it. also if i don't have safe place for the NAS drive we paint it to look like something else.  i backup each computer on the network to the sme every day when that is finished i run the sme to nas backup all done automatically.

thanks
john

Offline janet

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Re: Backup Advice Needed
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2013, 08:47:09 AM »
Charles2008

Quote
One of my issues is, that I want to be able to be away from the office for longish periods of time (week +) and not be worrying about backups. I need backups to be as automatic as possible.

The built in sme backup to workstation or the DAR2 and Affa contribs, can backup to local USB disk, and they all do a full backup initially then daily incrementals (if set that way, which I recommend). So the daily backups only use a small amount of space depending what files have changed. A large 1.5Tb or 2Tb USB disk could handle maybe 6 months or a years worth of backups, if your server data size is nowhere near the USB disk size and your daily data changes are not great. It all depends on your circumstances. The point is to do daily incremental backups which will typically only use a small amount of space, so you can then retain many backups on the one disk.

The built in backup to workstation requires you to adhere to the disk swap schedule you have nominated eg weekly or daily, it's not so happy if you swap disks at the wrong time (day) in the cycle, and is designed moreso to swap backup disk on a weekly schedule with daily incrementals in between. That means the same disk is onsite for seven days before being removed off site. It's too risky for me to have no current backup off site for that long.
The issue of non sequential daily backups with the built in backup (& daily disk swapping) really hits when you try to do restores, the system cannot find all the daily sequential backups as they are split on two disks. There is a workaround by renumbering all the backup files on the one disk you want to restore from, but that's a pain in difficult circumstances when you are  trying to restore a system quickly from a backup disk.

That model does not suit my backup security needs, so I found the Affa backup to local USB allows me to swap disks on a daily basis without any problem, and I can restore from either disk. Each USB disk is removed off site every day, and cycles between home and office, or a staff members home & office if I am away.

I found I can leave the same USB disk connected for 2 or more days without problem (ie if I or a staff member forget to swap it), then just change it when you remember or when you return to the office after a 3 or 4 day public holiday break.

Quote
One area that has been nagging away at me is the Cloud and the possibility of backing up to/from it. I suppose the 'large file size' argument works against that, but perhaps no more so than a remote AFFA back-up box.

Yes it's the same issue, just a different backup system. Big data changes mean the need for big data pipes to the Internet and they are usually very costly.

Affa will continue a incompleted backup the next day, and the next and the next, until it finally finishes the whole backup, eg say 2 or 3 Gb of data change which is too big to complete in a 24 hour period via the net. It just means it takes a few days to completely backup everything that changes, which may not suit the need to have ALL data backed up off site every night.
For example 2Gb per day is 600Gb per month, so you need a generous data allowance plan also with your ISP, and outgoing data is usually much slower than incoming.

Quote
We do and will continue to have the occasional (once per quarter or half-year) need to archive large files of photographs (perhaps 2GB +/-). This again lends itself to local storage.

Large data backups once every few months is OK via net, but not so practical when happening daily or every few days.

Quote
Have I understood your (impressive) back-up routine correctly:

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes to Windows server - daily back-up (Ghost) to ibay, this is a full backup I think yearly or six monthly and then incrementals every day, scheduled for before the sme backup runs. This allows me to rebuild the Windows server & all configuration quickly in the event of a catastrophic failure and/or retrive individual files.
The burnt to USB-drive (SME-backup) is part of the normal daily sme server backup to local USB (2 x 1.5Tb or 2Tb cannot remember exactly which). These drives keep many months or even a year of data on them (using Affa), so I can rebuild the sme server or the Windows server to any date in that period, or retrieve specific files etc as at a certain date. These USB drives are not meant to be long term archive data drives, although they do partially serve that role. They really serve the role of lots of daily backups.

4. Yes

It has all proven useful on occasion, rarely needed, but a real blessing when a problem occurs.

Quote
Are those USB-pendrives in No.3? Also what capacity are the USB-drives?

I just have a couple of other drives at present (mini 3" USB's ?), a 500Gb & a 1Tb which I just do an occasional WinRAR manual backup to on the Windows server. It allows me to more easily & quickly retrieve files etc on a Windows workstation when I am at other locations, and provide remote support back to the main office, ie find a file and email it to them sort of thing. It's a bit easier than needing a sme server to connect the backup ext3 USB drives to and "read" the backup data by mounting one of the main USB backup drives.
The mini USB's are holding selective sets of 2 year old data, so are starting to serve the role of long term storage, rather than DVD's, although at present I still use DVD's as well for the absolutely critical accounting data. I just have not let go of my old habits just yet. I went to the shop the other day and they carry very limited supplies now of DVD disks, every one has switched to USB sticks & hard drives etc.
I do not trust USB sticks just yet, had too many failures with them, although I think things are getting better, just buy good quality. No reason not to, I'm just a little stuck in my ways.

Re compression, it will vary with the types of files you store, some may already be in a very compressed format, so little gain on backup.
Incremental daily backups is the way to keep backup data to a minimum, for whatever data set you have to backup regularly. Read the Affa wiki article, there is something there about backup size usage.

I suggest yust get 2 USB disks (the largest size possible eg 2Tb) to do local "almost unattended" backup & swap them off site every so often when you remember. Something is better than nothing, less regularly is better than not at all, sort of thing. You can use the built in backup to workstation, or Affa, depending on how frequently & regularly you swap the disks. Affa is more forgiving.

Look at a remote Affa server later if daily data set size change allows it to be used in a practical sense. You could initially setup the Affa server on site on the LAN and see how it goes and how much data is moved every night etc, and then see if suitable for using remotely across the net.
It (Affa) is fairly easy to set up, just watch carefully the settings in the Affa job config file, so from my point of view there is no reason not to setup your home sme server straight away, and then configure a remote Affa job to backup your office server. You will very quickly see how practical it will be, ie speed & data usage limits etc.
Please search before asking, an answer may already exist.
The Search & other links to useful information are at top of Forum.

Offline piran

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Re: Backup Advice Needed
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2013, 02:23:24 PM »
The DAR2 contrib is old but simple. It does not do
incremental or differential backups - only full ones.

I use different JOBs to make up for that functionality.
The JOB for the SME SYSTEM takes only a minute or so.
The JOB for iBay DATA uses DAR2's filters selectively to
keep things manageable. It keeps as many back copies
alive as it is configured for and purges the remainder. By
the use of a SLICE setting of 1920 three such files then
fit exactly onto a DVD-r for further/offline archiving.
 
Manual (monthly/quarterly) runs of either JOB are
run adhoc. Straightforward. Simple. Does the job.

Offline Charles2008

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Re: Backup Advice Needed
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2013, 04:27:12 PM »
Piran
You are right, I have to swim with the sharks and see if I get bitten!
I know that backups are very situation dependant (size of business, different data security threats etc), however, I am very grateful for any advice (before I jump!) from those with experience that might help me avoid any obvious nasties.

I like your advice to keep it REALLY simple. Interesting that, like Hawk, you favour a NAS box. You use DAR2 and he uses SME-backup.

UK business records need to be kept for between 1 and 5 years. UK VAT records kept for 6 years http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/chmanual/CH15400.htm. UK Board minutes must be kept for 10 years ("Companies Act 2006 requires them to be retained for at least 10 years") http://www.out-law.com/page-8201
The above can be kept electronically, however, must be retrievable and printable.
There are business documents that are suggested to have their original document retained (Articles of Association, Loan and Motgage docts, Stock Certs, signed Wills, Power of Attorney, Court Orders - there are more).

Piran, looking at your latest post - your 'simple' might be 'quite tricky' for me.

John,
Thank you for sharing your ingenious server / back-up arrangements. Wow, your 'data protection' issues are of a different magnitude to my own!
I think our landlord would have a fit if I bolted our server to the floor. Yes, it might be worth it just for that :) (actually, we are fortunate. They are good people)
What software do you use to back up all your PC's on the network with?


Mary
Thank you for your detail-packed reply.

AFFA is still sounding good. Perhaps I need to consider your local external-HDD solution more carefully. Maybe incorporate USB-sticks too (that was something I had not even considered - like you, I am a little suspicious of them).

I am fascinated by your (implied) observation that back-up's are moving away from DVD's to USB-sticks (and external-HHD's). Of course HDD capacity is racing ahead of realistic DVD backup capacity. I wonder if they are taking special precautions to store them - steel box, or lead or something? Are USB-sticks really a robust long term data storage option?

I find the prospect of utilising the SME-backup reassuring. After all, the brains behind SMEserver have designed SME-backup exactly for this. I feel that it would be wise to try an incorporate it in any backup / data-protection solution I come up with. Also, it is 'supported' by the community.

Thank you all for your valuable feedback.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 04:30:16 PM by Charles2008 »

Offline janet

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Re: Backup Advice Needed
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2013, 12:42:03 AM »
Charles2008

Pirans observations about DAR2 are correct. I have not used it for a long time & forgot it did not do incremental backups. It can do a number of different backup jobs for different data sets on different schedules (manual, weekly or on specified days) so has versatility in that regard.

The problem with DAR2 and using a number of backup jobs to backup all data periodically, is that when you need to do a restore (usually under a time of duress) it can be complicated to get all your data back as you have to first restore the full backup and then restore the individual backup jobs. I found it too much hassle years ago when I used DAR2, although it was good then because we did not have incremental backups built in to sme server (IIRC) & backup disk sizes were much smaller than are available today, so we could tailor backup jobs to "match" or suit the backup disk size (eg 40, 80, 120Gb).

Re Johns comments re bolting to the floor/desk, I also do similar with great big chains attached to my servers which are bolted or padlocked to something immovable, and this in a air conditioned and burglar alarm protected building. It stops burglary type theft of servers. I am in a relatively safe & civilized big city in Australia, so do not have the lawlessness issues that may prevail elsewhere.

Nonetheless, once theft or data loss happens, you become very cautious and protective, and realise prevention (of theft at least) is just as important as excellent data recovery procedures.

Affa is good because you can have say 1 or 2 years or more of daily data on one big 2Gb backup disk. When it becomes full, just put it in the cupboard for long term archival storage. Nothing more to do, no copying to USB sticks or mini USB drives and no burning to DVD's. The act of an automated daily incremental backup covers both your daily backup neeeds and your archival needs.

Have 2 disks though so that there is always a duplicate backup if one disk should fail (usually a failure will happen at the worst possible time).

Initially do a full backup to both disks of the same data set, or the data set one day apart, then do daily incrementals indefinitely, until the disks are full. At $100 or $150 a disk it is cheap to replace every year or 2 compared to the hours of manual work & effort handling manual backups and copying to other disks or DVDs etc, and there is some cost anyway associated with USB sticks or drives or DVD media.
Gee I think it's time to trash my DVD backup routine totally in favour of big HDD's !

The only issue here is with data retrieval in a year or two or five, as you would need to attach the archival drive to a sme server, mount the drive and read off the data. Not hard to do, but it means a sme (or Linux) server is always needed. The good point about Affa is that the data files are directly readable once mounted, so just copy what you want and all done.

If you can use the sme default backup to workstation (to local USB disk) then that's good, as it is supported, but for me it had some limitations, and those limitations I suspect will also be a problem for you ie erratic or irregular disk swapping etc. The default  backup is focussed on a weekly cycle, so a new full backup is done every week and then daily incrementals for the rest of the week. You can retain those weekly full backups & daily incremental "sets", but they will more quickly fill up the backup USB disk.

Affa does the first full backup and then incrementals every day indefinitely for the specified retention period, which can be a week, a month, a year or two or five, limited only by disk size.
You are reliant on that first full backup, which all the incrementals add to, so if something was corrupted then you may not be able to retrieve anything, but that's why you have a second disk doing a "close to duplicate" backup every alternate day. The data on each disk will be different by one days worth of activity.

Disk corruption is a possibility with any system, it's a hardware issue, so I do not think the chances of failure are any higher with Affa compared to the default smeserver-dar system.

If you want more redundancy then add a third or even fourth USB disk to the backup routine.

PS I should also add, that whatever method you adopt, test it fully for backup and restore.
Prove that a full system restore is possible. It may be awkward to do this and time consuming (as a full restore can take many hours), but you can then be sure your method will work when the critical time arrives one day. Make notes of your procedures for system recovery and file them away somewhere you will remember to look for them when needed. Paper copy is a good idea, as you may not be able to access any electronic files when needed !
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 12:49:35 AM by mary »
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Offline TerryF

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Re: Backup Advice Needed
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2013, 03:50:58 AM »
I am associated with a small NFP community org here that we setup SME server 8.0 as their office system. http://www.bsch.org.au/

Only small, 6 workstations, office is only staffed Monday to Friday.

One workstation has all the financials for the org, most of corress, invoices etc etc, its a state funded body so has to keep records etc with due diligence.

Another workstation has all the attendance records etc and reporting software that is used to provide stats reports to a state gov authority so its stuff is also  a "must".

All users use the server as their default save to for all work, all backups of fin and stats stuff is to the server.

The two windows workstations are fully backed up to the server weekly using a freeware backup app, they are turned on if not on by WOL from the server using a cron job, and they are also backed up adhoc at any time or when thought appropriate.

The server is setup with the default backup to workstation and a 1tb USB drive, it is in a secure office seperate from the server, again WOL is used to turn that PC on if it is not left on. Full backups to occur on Sundays only.

Currently do 3, 6 and 12 months archiving using dar2 and they are stored on external HD.

In the future that will be automated using external HDs etc and cron jobs.

All in all it is simple and "it works" and as $$ are an issue for them its cheap. Have had occasion to retreive files from the backups, was OK.

The office workers have very little to remember, swap external drives when needed and thats about it.

If something happens I get the email and call them, sort it out and away they go again.

Its not a perfect system or even really very professional, but for a not for ptofit that has little $$ and is community based does the job.
--
qui scribit bis legit

Offline hawk

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Re: Backup Advice Needed
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2013, 06:00:42 AM »
ok you guys are going to laugh at me, i still use DOS commands to backup users computers to the SME server. Over the years i have tried many free and purchased backup software programs, and because of reliability keep coming back to DOS
so i have a bat file that i have created and run this with the windows scheduler, you can even display a message on the computer or send an email when finished. this file is either on the desktop or in a folder on the desktop, it can be run manually or auto. i still have PC's i setup 10 years ago with this backup and i can see on the server they are still backing up. in some cases i use this same bat file to backup both to the sme and the nas drive. so every evening the users computer will do a daily backup to sme and then a weekly backup to the NAS. so on the NAS we have a monday, Tuesday etc backup, this is mainly for accounting software so if there is a mistake we only need to restore one day backwards. When this is all finished then the sme does a full backup to the nas say on a saturday and incremental backup every evening.
if you want to use the cleanmgr then you need to run the following command first "cleamgr /sageset :99" but just once and select all the options.

i know a bit of an issue to setup but once setup it works, i have been using this for years and it works with xp, vista, win 7 & 8. One thing that is strange about this batch file it works like a charm with linux but i have all sorts of issues if i want to use it with a windows server.

below is a simple batch file that i call "hddbackup.bat"

@ echo off
cd\
CLS

Echo Your hard drive is being backed up and cleaned of temp files
Echo If have any problems please contact

cleanmgr /sagerun:99


echo    mapping drive L:

echo   connecting to server

echo    removing old map
net use L: /d
net use L: \\yourservername or ip address\username /persistent:yes
echo   Found Server

robocopy "C:\Users\username\Documents\Data 2013" l:\documents\data2013 /e
robocopy "c:\Users\username\Desktop" l:\desktop /e

net use L: /d

exit


hope this helps
thanks
john

Offline Charles2008

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Re: Backup Advice Needed
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2013, 05:26:01 PM »
Mary,
Regarding chaining your servers to something immovable - how do you attach the chain to the servers?
Having owned motorbikes in the distant past, I am aware that to be bolt-cropper proof one needs HUGE links - or are we talking bicycle chain type attachments (deterrent as opp to improbable / 2 mins v's 10 mins delay)?
Thinking further along these 'bolt your server down' lines - a neat way to achieve this might be to use those bolts for alloy wheels (they have a unique-ish wrench attachment) - I have a couple of sets lying around taken from cars sold. One could find the correct nut size and then epoxy the nuts into a wall/floor whilst attached to grease smeared (to release) bolt  ...  mind wandering ... It beats having threaded metal sticking OUT of a wall/floor.
Saying all this though, if someone with an angle grinder wants your server, they're going to get it - although it might take a few noisy minutes.
Now, if you encased it in concrete .....  8)
Quote
Disk corruption is a possibility with any system, it's a hardware issue ...
I have noticed that on my ML115 'destined for production' server that, the RAM is non-ECC. How much does this matter? Is this something I can happily address in 12 months?
In summary, I can see that the solution looks like local NAS / local or remote AFFA / + ext-HDD backups.



TerryF
Thank you for detailing that set-up. The scenario you describe is not far removed from our own.
Quote
The two windows workstations are fully backed up to the server weekly using a freeware backup app,
May I ask which freeware app you are using for workstation backup there?
With other posters recommending a NAS solution, I spent last night reading up on it. I was wondering if perhaps I could load NAS software onto my second server and use some sort of WOL to save on running costs (overall, this might perhaps be a MUCH more cost effective NAS solution than a store bought NAS box). Actually, thinking out loud, I would much prefer to keep to one sort of hardware and one sort of software here (I will already be at the limit of my tech ability). Am I talking nonsense - I should use SMEserver as the backup NAS box - back to where I started, with AFFA perhaps???
Quote
Currently do 3, 6 and 12 months archiving using dar2 and they are stored on external HD.
Is this in addition to the backup-to-workstation / 1TB ext-HDD?  This is another ext-HDD?
Are we at a total of 3x ext-HDD's here (or have I misunderstood)?



Hawk

I bet you nobody is laughing - fascinated more like. If this simple dos system has been so rock-solid over 10+ years and all the various Windows incarnations, I imagine there will be a few impersonators.
It is clear that people are taking extra-special care of accounting data - I can well understand why.
What NAS software/hardware are you using?- we're all on the edge of our seats here  :-)



I remember reading a post by an SME user using FreeNAS nfs and rsnapshot (http://www.rsnapshot.org).
I also read about someone using a NAS setup whereby he shunned raid1 (in the NAS) and instead periodically copied the data from the first NAS HDD to a second internal HDD in the NAS box (this may have been a 'self-build' NAS box). Is this normal NAS practice?


« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 06:17:22 PM by Charles2008 »