Koozali.org: home of the SME Server

Foundation - the future of SME.....

Offline ReetP

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Foundation - the future of SME.....
« on: May 01, 2013, 11:54:37 PM »
You know I love to paraphrase :-)

Friends, Romans, countrymen, coders, integrators, lurkers, hackers, fiddlers and sysadmins, lend me your ears :-)

Sorry, but this is long. And I hope I won't have to do it again :-) However, a lot has happened, and we need to explain the story so far.

4 months ago SME was at a crossroads. We had a simple choice.

Integrate, or disintegrate.

Get our act together, or the last person to leave would have to turn off the lights.

As you are aware I have been trying to form the basis for the future of the distribution. For a variety of reasons which I will explain, this has been no simple task. I for one do not know all the answers for the future. My talents are limited. But there are plenty of people out there who have great ideas. My job is to find them, bring them together, and get the best out of them.

So, after a lot of work from a lot of extremely dedicated people, we believe we have in place the first brick(s) in the road to a new future.

A bit of background to start with. Following my original doc on the Future of SME it seemed to be agreed that we would pursue two immediate paths, one being to update SME to CentOS 6.x and the second to try and form a Not-for-Profit 'Inc' as the basis for a proper organisation on which foundation we could build a solid future.

As you probably know, v9 is progressing at a pace and we believe it is near Beta, which is a fantastic achievement in such a short time. It still needs a huge amount of work, and if you want to see it on your machines you HAVE to get involved in the process somehow. ANYONE can test. It just isn't that hard. So please jump in. Go find your own bug :-)

You can start here : http://wiki.contribs.org/SME_Server_9.0_Development

Regarding a formal organisation I decided that I would go out and contact various people to try and form a 'Board' for an Inc.

I wanted to try and get a good cross section of community members. Old, and new, programmers and business people, English and non native English speakers, geographically diverse.

You may be surprised at the list. A number of people you may possibly have expected to see here were contacted, but for various good reasons they were unable to join in. However I can assure you that they are fully behind us.

So welcome to the new 'Board' :

Main Officers :

President : John Crisp
Secretary : Tony Keane
Treasurer : Greg Zartman

Board members :

Daniel Berteaud
Stephane de Labrusse
Shad Lords
Hsing Foo Wang
Stefano Zamboni
Ian Wells



OK - at this point take a deep breath...... get a beer or a coffee, pull up a chair, relax...... If you have a copy of the Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy, grab your towel. The words 'Don't Panic' will shortly reveal their true importance....


One point that came up literally just a few days ago, (and I am sure it will overshadow all the nitty gritty) is the name.

After some research it would appear that legally we cannot easily use SME Server Inc. We need a name we can control exclusively, and can use globally. We could probably get around that, but then we would still have an issue with domain names, and that really is the clincher. sme domain names are all over the place and mainly out of our control.

Try www.smeserver.com to see what I mean....

That got us thinking and Greg suggested that maybe we do something completely different and look at another name entirely.

Originally I thought it might be better with a re-branding and launch of SME at say v10 (if we ever get that far) but, if it had to be now, then so be it, and maybe in some respects it is no bad thing. It is an opportunity to put the past behind, and move on.

Greg suggested some names and we liked the look of "Koozali"

As Greg said :

"Kuzaliwa is Welsh/Swahili for reborn or re-birth.  This name has a real ring to it and some very relevant meaning behind it. I checked and the following domain names are open:  koozali.com, koozali.net, and koozali.org are open domains."

So we decided on Koozali Foundation Inc

Rather than just changing the name completely it was felt that we should also try and retain the SME part of the current distro and it was felt that the distro itself should be called Koozali SME Server. We then have the option of say producing 'Koozali SME Server for Home' or 'Koozali SME Server for Business' (say with different contribs installed by default) or whatever else we fancy. Most importantly WE make those decisions.

We grasped the nettle and have registered the above domains, and a lot more, in case anyone else likes it - we don't want them squatted on. They will all be passed to the Foundation.

Domain name registration details are here :

http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation_Domains

From a branding point of view it is a good name as it has two 'low frequency' letter with K and Z which makes it more 'eyecatching'

There was some debate between Board members about whether to ask the community to debate the name, or take an executive decision and get on with it. Last time round the name was a stumbling block so we made the decision to get on with it and protect the name, and we have therefore registered a new Inc in the name of :

Koozali Foundation Inc

You can see that it is registered here :

http://egov.sos.state.or.us/br/pkg_web_name_srch_inq.show_detl?p_be_rsn=1637166&p_srce=BR_INQ&p_print=FALSE

The By Laws and Articles are here - a lot of this is couched in legalese :

Articles of Incorporation:
http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation_Articles_of_Incorporation

Bylaws:
http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation_By_Laws

Minutes from inaugural meeting:
http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation_Inaugural_Minutes

I will try and get these on the wiki soonest.

We decided to make the initial term for The Board as 18 months with annual elections thereafter - otherwise we would have only had 6 months before trying to run elections and we really need to concentrate on other things right now. If the community feels that there should be changes to any of these documents then please let us know and we will review them accordingly.

We have kept it simple for now and not worried about Constitutions, Mission Statements and such like. They can wait for another day.

Our suggestion would be to use the new name and domains as the new 'face' of SME with a new and trendier website, whilst maintaining contribs.org as the documentation resource and engine room of the system. We can move everything to the domain name in the fullness of time. Once we have a logo and branding we can look at the web site in detail.

We have some designers looking at new logos and we will post them as soon as we can. You can look at some of the design 'brief' that we are looking at here :

http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation_Design_Brief

Suggestions are welcome.

We have resurrected the Board mailing list and we have been using this as an easy communication channel between the Board members. We intend to keep this as a 'by invitation only' group for posting, but the archives for reading should be available in due course. We want things to be as open and transparent as possible.

We know that we have taken a while to get here, but it was important to get some things straight. We have worked really hard at reconciliation where we can, and tried to quell dissenting voices as much as possible, and will continue to do so. We need a united front from top to bottom. Now is not the time for arguments and trying to settle old scores. We need to be positive and work together. If you feel something needs changing, come up with a workable alternative. Don't just say 'no'.

We believe that you will like the name, or at least feel you can work with it. We also hope that the community is happy with the Inc.

Our next immediate target is to get v9 to at least Beta as soon as we can. We need to focus on that, and need all hands to the pumps. There is still a lot of work to do. If you haven't done anything, then do it now. Don't say you are too busy. We all have jobs too.......

In the meantime we intend to set up two main working groups (if we have volunteers then maybe we can break this down further) to look at the future of the distro from two points of view - code development and business development. We will post more details on this soon, and hope that more of the community will become involved. But bear in mind that we must not loose sight of v9 - if we all go and play with new toys and great ideas, the platform to mount them on will never be launched. So we need to be careful with our priorities.

The last point is cash. Let us be blunt about this. SME as it stands runs on a few generous donations which in no way cover the current running costs of the hardware. Shad funds a large chunk this out of his own pocket. The new domains, and company registration have been paid for personally by members of the Board. If we were a business we would have been bankrupt a long time ago.

This CANNOT continue. There has been too much 'take', and not enough 'give'. We have to change this. The only question will be 'how'.

I personally have heard people say that they are too busy with installs to have the time to pay back to SME. But I bet they get their invoices out to their clients on time.

If we raised USD 1 per server per year we would have USD 30,000 a year for servers and whatever else we want to do. USD 5 = USD 150,000

The maths is very easy. We have to make paying a little towards it easy as well. This is not a discussion for right now, but it will be one we have to have in the near future, and we have to start thinking of 'chipping in' a little money. Remember too that the Foundation is a charitable Not For Profit organisation. But it isn't a charity per se ! We cannot continue on thin air and good wishes. To thrive we need some hard cash.

In ending I can honestly say this has been one of the hardest and yet most rewarding times of my life. I have had moments of despair, and of elation. Some of the kind words that people have said have been wonderful, and I want to thank every single person involved in things to date. People have picked me up when I have been down, and for that I can't thank them enough. I have made some new friendships which I am sure will endure for the rest of my life.

It's been a fraught few months (my wife thinks I might actually have left home, or even the planet, as she has seen so little of me) for all concerned in this process. A lot of people have worked extremely hard 24/7 to make all this happen.

The members of the Board have been quite simply phenomenal, and both a privilege and a pleasure to work with. They are consummate committed professionals in every sense. We have had our differences, and undoubtedly will continue to do so ! But there is a spirit of camaraderie and compromise, and always with the future of the distro at the core of all the debates and decisions. The future of Koozali SME Server will be safe in their hands.

I know that there is a lot to take in, and I am sure there will be many questions, but I trust that the community will feel that we have done the right thing, and support the new Koozali Foundation wholeheartedly.

Right, enough of me. It's over to you guys now.....

B. Rgds
John

Donation Link
http://wiki.contribs.org/Donate

Mailing lists - Subscribe to discussions and devinfo :
http://lists.contribs.org/mailman/listinfo/

Please keep discussions on the Koozali and the future on the discussions list, NOT on the devinfo list.

IRC Freenode #SME_Server or #sme-fr
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 11:23:39 PM by ReetP »
...
1. Read the Manual
2. Read the Wiki
3. Don't ask for support on Unsupported versions of software
4. I have a job, wife, and kids and do this in my spare time. If you want something fixed, please help.

Bugs are easier than you think: http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help

If you love SME and don't want to lose it, join in: http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation

Online TerryF

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2013, 04:32:13 AM »
Love the egg :-)

Onward and upward, thank you to everyones efforts..
--
qui scribit bis legit

Offline nicolatiana

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2013, 09:39:47 AM »
I agree completely  8) .
 
Let'go on !!!
 
Nicola
Consulente di Smeserver.it -  Soluzioni e supporto su Sme server in Italia.

Offline larieu

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2013, 11:12:14 AM »
Great

It feels like we start to have a compass , we need the maps and we are not lost any more  :grin:

lets find the maps
if everybody's life around you is better, probably yours will be better
just try to improve their life

Offline ReetP

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2013, 12:59:06 PM »
Just updated links for the Documentation to the wiki pages

Enjoy :-)
...
1. Read the Manual
2. Read the Wiki
3. Don't ask for support on Unsupported versions of software
4. I have a job, wife, and kids and do this in my spare time. If you want something fixed, please help.

Bugs are easier than you think: http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help

If you love SME and don't want to lose it, join in: http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation

Offline stephdl

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2013, 05:24:31 PM »
Great

It feels like we start to have a compass , we need the maps and we are not lost any more  :grin:

lets find the maps
It is exactly why i have accepted to be in the adventure, this act is the start of a  future for the Koozali SME Server community.
You have said that so well larieu
See http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation
irc : Freenode #sme_server #sme-fr

!!! Please write your knowledge to the Wiki !!!

Offline johnp

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2013, 06:15:52 AM »
Not that I like the name change, but I see your point. As some may know, I install a lot of the Mitel MSL products and I still call them SME. I do like the move forward and transparity.  :)

Offline ReetP

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2013, 07:16:35 PM »
Not that I like the name change, but I see your point. As some may know, I install a lot of the Mitel MSL products and I still call them SME. I do like the move forward and transparity.  :)

We understand it may not be to everyone’s taste. There is no one size to fit all. But we as a community needed proper control of a name. We couldn't with SME, particularly with domain names.

So we had to do something. At the end of the day the software will still have 'SME Server' in the name though I guess it will be shortened to Koozali in time.

As I explained, we didn't want to put it out publicly for fear of name squatters et al, so we took a flyer. At the end of the day it is a name - we have to make it a brand and sell it accordingly. Fortunately we can build on great software and a long history, so that is good news :-)

We do want to try and make everything as open as possible and will continue in this vein.

What we want most is for people to voice their opinions, join in the discussions, and help more :-) No help, no v9, whatever the name is !

So test it, verify it, or donate towards it.............

B. Rgds
John
...
1. Read the Manual
2. Read the Wiki
3. Don't ask for support on Unsupported versions of software
4. I have a job, wife, and kids and do this in my spare time. If you want something fixed, please help.

Bugs are easier than you think: http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help

If you love SME and don't want to lose it, join in: http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation

Offline christian

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2013, 02:55:35 PM »
John,
totally fine with the new name. But I'm curious what was the issue with the old name?
SME since 2003

Offline nicolatiana

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2013, 07:26:12 PM »
I think the domain was already registered in USA (http://whois.net/whois/smeserver.com) and usually registering a domain is connected to a registered trade mark or similar; so I think we had to pay cash to get the brand from the owner.
I think the brand-new name is a good "rebirth" solution

Nicola


Consulente di Smeserver.it -  Soluzioni e supporto su Sme server in Italia.

Offline christian

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2013, 12:30:37 AM »
I think the domain was already registered in USA
I think that is only an issue if you did not register the mark before hand. SME Server is certainly registered as a trade mark by someone in Utah which I believe is actually someone associated with contribs.org. If the mark exists before the domain then you can certainly issue a cease and desist. Even if the mark didn't exist but the registrant of the domain name was well aware that the brand was being used then you can still file a complaint with the UDRP.
SME since 2003

Offline ReetP

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2013, 12:42:58 AM »
I think that is only an issue if you did not register the mark before hand. SME Server is certainly registered as a trade mark by someone in Utah which I believe is actually someone associated with contribs.org. If the mark exists before the domain then you can certainly issue a cease and desist. Even if the mark didn't exist but the registrant of the domain name was well aware that the brand was being used then you can still file a complaint with the UDRP.

Christian, I understand your concerns.

We purposefully didn't want to get in to discussing the full legal situation here. Simple speaking the logo is trademarked by another company and not contribs.org . That could potentially be worked around somewhat. The biggest factor that overrode that was that the domain names are all over the place and there is no consistency. As I mentioned before, try smeserver.com  This was all attempted to be resolved before and it was complicated then.

Once we realised the position it made a lot more sense to cut loose and use a new name. Quicker, easier, and less mess. We also have full control of all the important domain names.

And on top of that, it gives a new start, and should give us some press when we launch properly

B. Rgds
John
...
1. Read the Manual
2. Read the Wiki
3. Don't ask for support on Unsupported versions of software
4. I have a job, wife, and kids and do this in my spare time. If you want something fixed, please help.

Bugs are easier than you think: http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help

If you love SME and don't want to lose it, join in: http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation

Offline christian

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2013, 01:01:19 AM »
Quicker, easier, and less mess. We also have full control of all the important domain names.
John,

thanks for clarifying and understood. It is rather upsetting to see that someone else trade marked SME server (complete with the contribs.org logo). It was so spot on that I assumed it had to be one of the contribs.org team and that I believe one of the core team is based in Utah (where the registrant lives).

In any event, even with the new name, the team will have to be vigilant as others will try and use it and you could easily run into the same kinds of issues. In the company I work for we have to fire off cease and desists quite regularly.

Many thanks to you and the rest of the contribs.org leadership for the big push to SME9 and improving the structure. I certainly appreciate the effort.
SME since 2003

Offline ReetP

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2013, 12:03:05 PM »
John,

thanks for clarifying and understood. It is rather upsetting to see that someone else trade marked SME server (complete with the contribs.org logo). It was so spot on that I assumed it had to be one of the contribs.org team and that I believe one of the core team is based in Utah (where the registrant lives).

In any event, even with the new name, the team will have to be vigilant as others will try and use it and you could easily run into the same kinds of issues. In the company I work for we have to fire off cease and desists quite regularly.

Many thanks to you and the rest of the contribs.org leadership for the big push to SME9 and improving the structure. I certainly appreciate the effort.

No worries.

It's a bit more complex than that :-) However, we didn't wish to delve into the legalities or start mudslinging. There were perfectly acceptable reasons, but it made life a bit awkward, and a clean start was the better and easier option. As I mentioned, the logo was one small part, but the domain names were actually a bigger issue.

We need to go forwards and not backwards now. The time for acrimony et al needs to be put behind us and we need to work on a future, and not dwell on the past.

Thanks for the support ! Keep pushing.

B. Rgds
John
...
1. Read the Manual
2. Read the Wiki
3. Don't ask for support on Unsupported versions of software
4. I have a job, wife, and kids and do this in my spare time. If you want something fixed, please help.

Bugs are easier than you think: http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help

If you love SME and don't want to lose it, join in: http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation

Offline purvis

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2013, 06:40:20 PM »
I read the name last week cannot even remember it now. I starts with a z and I think it has two o's in it. I think a name should be remember able and spell able easily. If you say the name to somebody, you should not get them saying "spell that", "say that again", "what". It is very clear to me if a name has anything to with success. You should call this new os Titantic because at least it would be a named remembered. It is also clear although there may be some smart people on the team. They know nothing about marketing.  That was intended to be an insult. If that is what it takes to rattle them into reality. 

Offline purvis

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2013, 07:02:36 PM »
A name more easier to remember and say is a much better choice.
An example might be PowerServer, NoIronServer, MyOwnServer, ServMyself, SeverItToMe, MoreNowServer, LittleBigTimeServer. 
 Of course I would not vote on most of these names. But all them are better than z whatever it's called now.

Offline ReetP

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2013, 07:11:01 PM »
I read the name last week cannot even remember it now. I starts with a z and I think it has two o's in it. I think a name should be remember able and spell able easily. If you say the name to somebody, you should not get them saying "spell that", "say that again", "what". It is very clear to me if a name has anything to with success. You should call this new os Titantic because at least it would be a named remembered.

Clearly having seen it barely mentioned, you seemed to have got a handle on it already :-)

Quote
It is also clear although there may be some smart people on the team. They know nothing about marketing.  That was intended to be an insult. If that is what it takes to rattle them into reality.

Personally I take issue with that - for a start my wife and I work in promotional marketing - and I really don't think insulting people is going to do anything positive is it ? You are going back to the same old same old and that is what nearly destroyed SME the last time round. As I said, positive and constructive discussion is good. Being rude doesn't help anyone.

I purposely tried to ensure that a lot of the 'Board' were from business backgrounds, and I have tried to make sure that there is a balance between developer and business as I know that is the way we have to go. Beyond that we have a lot of others we can turn to for advice and we have spoken to people in PR as well.

We have kept the whole thing low key at the minute on  purpose  - the name is no good without a logo to reinforce it. We are visually stimulated beasts. Anyone who the basics knows that. Names themselves don't mean a lot without some form of visual reinforcement. We would have preferred to have announced the two hand in hand (e.g. name and a logo), but wanted to let people know what was happening.

If you want to get your own way and have a voice, then get involved, but don't just sit and snipe on the sidelines please.

You can find my email address anywhere around if you want to contact me and volunteer for a job. There is plenty to do.

B. Rgds
John
...
1. Read the Manual
2. Read the Wiki
3. Don't ask for support on Unsupported versions of software
4. I have a job, wife, and kids and do this in my spare time. If you want something fixed, please help.

Bugs are easier than you think: http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help

If you love SME and don't want to lose it, join in: http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation

Offline ReetP

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2013, 07:14:40 PM »
A name more easier to remember and say is a much better choice.
An example might be PowerServer, NoIronServer, MyOwnServer, ServMyself, SeverItToMe, MoreNowServer, LittleBigTimeServer. 
 Of course I would not vote on most of these names. But all them are better than z whatever it's called now.

If you want you can have Koozali IronManServer or whatever else you want. There are no limits to what it could be called, and that is the point - in time we may want Koozali SME Business Server, Koozali SME Home Server or whatever else you can come up with.

The point is we have as much flexibility as we want now.

B. Rgds
John
...
1. Read the Manual
2. Read the Wiki
3. Don't ask for support on Unsupported versions of software
4. I have a job, wife, and kids and do this in my spare time. If you want something fixed, please help.

Bugs are easier than you think: http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help

If you love SME and don't want to lose it, join in: http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation

Offline piran

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2013, 07:21:56 PM »
...the name is no good without a logo to reinforce it. We are visually stimulated beasts. Anyone who the basics knows that. Names themselves don't mean a lot without some form of visual reinforcement. We would have preferred to have announced the two hand in hand (e.g. name and a logo), but wanted to let people know what was happening.
The logo/logoform is now... what/where?

Offline janet

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2013, 07:23:46 PM »
purvis

Quote
I read the name last week cannot even remember it now. I starts with a z and I think it has two o's in it.

Perhaps you need to go back to school for some reading lessons, or maybe you are just getting old & senile & forgetful. It starts with a k.

Quote
I think a name should be remember able and spell able easily.

Yes with spelling abilities like that you definitely need some more english lessons.

Quote
If you say the name to somebody, you should not get them saying "spell that", "say that again", "what". It is very clear to me if a name has anything to with success. You should call this new os Titantic because at least it would be a named remembered.

That is a reasonable opinion but not an ultimate blocker. I have to spell my own business name many times purely because it is based on my natural given surname, which some people spell one way & others spell another way, but my business is still successful. In these days of written communication, email addresses & web sites etc, the new name will be easily discernible.
I know you did not mean it to be used, but Titanic SME could be seen as being an immediate disaster of an OS !!!
So koozali, while unusual & different, implies & means a beginning & a start & something new to look forward to. Reasonably optimistic to me.

Quote
It is also clear although there may be some smart people on the team. They know nothing about marketing.  That was intended to be an insult. If that is what it takes to rattle them into reality.

So where were you when the call was made for people to come forward & be involved in setting up the new SME server structure. The call was made in early January 2013 & volunteers & those seriously committed to keeping SME server alive, stepped forward & offered their services, their names are at the start of this thread. They worked through the "issues" & they made the call, & therefore they are quite entitled to come up with a name & a organisational structure they think is suitable.
If you are really concerned about helping & marketing the new Koozali SME Server, then offer your services if you are an expert at product marketing etc. I'm sure your claimed skills would be appreciated.

Please do not start insulting (to use your words) people in these forums, at a time when your comment is more or less irrelevant as it is a done deal now & a commitment has been made to the koozali name.

I would also ask others not to respond to such insults, as in the words of purvis, it is just designed to "rattle them into reality", & I think such discussions will just be a waste of everybodies valuable time. If purvis wants to be serious about assisting, then he can give positive input & help to the Koozali Foundation team. It is still the SME server as we know it today, just taking on a new name, so there is no valid reason to suddenly not support Koozali SME Server just because you do not personally like or are critical of the new name.
Please search before asking, an answer may already exist.
The Search & other links to useful information are at top of Forum.

Offline ReetP

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2013, 07:30:56 PM »
The logo/logoform is now... what/where?

We are looking at some professional designs at the minute which one of the Board members has paid for personally out of his own pocket (not forgetting also the domains that were purchased for the Foundation personally by Board members)

Once we have narrowed down a few designs we'll post for comments.

In the meantime, anybody who isn't helping with code can always make a donation :-) All will be gratefully received....

B. Rgds
John
...
1. Read the Manual
2. Read the Wiki
3. Don't ask for support on Unsupported versions of software
4. I have a job, wife, and kids and do this in my spare time. If you want something fixed, please help.

Bugs are easier than you think: http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help

If you love SME and don't want to lose it, join in: http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation

Offline piran

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2013, 07:33:18 PM »
Is the Koozali Foundation already 'twinned' with the similarly
named town/city of Koozali in the Golestan province of Iran?
http://www.irangpsmap.com/ShowCity.asp?id=29136&GM=0&lang=1

Offline purvis

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2013, 08:30:58 PM »
Where was I in January 2013. Working my butt off to provide more information to the  social direction the US Government is headed because of another "smart" person.

A name should not require a logo. Only a bad name requires a logo. Oriental people in America   named their children American names for a good reason. Linux os names do not have to be exotic names.

Offline piran

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2013, 08:32:53 PM »
Any branding is better defended with a recognisable logoform.

Offline piran

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2013, 08:34:33 PM »
Into the ideas mix for our new collective logoform,
with reference to rebirth, how about visual mitosis?
K00ZALI
eg negatively tracking together the two 'O' characters
here using their '0' counterparts for additional emphasis.
I cannot make the forum reply function perform negative
tracking and manual kerning - you'll have to imagine;-)
Less graphic design speak... squish the two '00' chars
together with a little bit of contact deformation.

Advantage of a logoform (using your protected domain
name) is that there is probably less likelyhood of there
being another pre-existing (eg contended) design out there.

Offline ReetP

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2013, 09:43:42 PM »
Into the ideas mix for our new collective logoform,
with reference to rebirth, how about visual mitosis?

LOL. Wait til you see some of the designs proposed. You are not a million miles off ;-) Hope to show you all some ideas soon.

B. Rgds
John
...
1. Read the Manual
2. Read the Wiki
3. Don't ask for support on Unsupported versions of software
4. I have a job, wife, and kids and do this in my spare time. If you want something fixed, please help.

Bugs are easier than you think: http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help

If you love SME and don't want to lose it, join in: http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation

Offline stephdl

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2013, 09:56:15 PM »
A name should not require a logo. Only a bad name requires a logo. Oriental people in America   named their children American names for a good reason. Linux os names do not have to be exotic names.
Mageia, Ubuntu, Slackware, Centos, Debian, puppy linux and so all....this is what i qualify of exotic name :p

They mean nothing except they affirm their brand.

The purpose is not to get a war against users, just to make a new sustainable way to our community linux distro....So i'm convinced that everybody have his place in the future of Koozali SME Server.
I do not want to see some fear, or  worried....SME Server will still free and open-source.....but don't forget to give a little bit of money every month... it is quite easy and we need it.

This is a new start for a new Hope.
See http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation
irc : Freenode #sme_server #sme-fr

!!! Please write your knowledge to the Wiki !!!

Offline janet

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2013, 10:24:36 PM »
purvis

Quote
Where was I in January 2013. Working my butt off to provide more information to the  social direction the US Government is headed because of another "smart" person.

So that just confirms you did not want to personally get involved, the reason being you felt you were too busy, so therefore any role you desired to have in choosing a new name or structure, was delegated to others, & they went ahead & got busy & chose a name etc.

I think you would be better off to stop wasting your time criticising & use that same time to get involved & help the project with your stated talents.
The forums is not the place to help with negative comments etc, so please contact one of the directors of the foundation directly.
If you do not wish to help, then that's OK also, but please do not criticise those who are doing something positive.
Please search before asking, an answer may already exist.
The Search & other links to useful information are at top of Forum.

Offline ReetP

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2013, 11:48:48 PM »
Is the Koozali Foundation already 'twinned' with the similarly
named town/city of Koozali in the Golestan province of Iran?
http://www.irangpsmap.com/ShowCity.asp?id=29136&GM=0&lang=1

As I assume you are joking, ROFLMAO.....

Class :-)

Any one like to volunteer for the position of Global Twinning Coordinator ?

LOL

B. Rgds
John
...
1. Read the Manual
2. Read the Wiki
3. Don't ask for support on Unsupported versions of software
4. I have a job, wife, and kids and do this in my spare time. If you want something fixed, please help.

Bugs are easier than you think: http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help

If you love SME and don't want to lose it, join in: http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation

Offline gzartman

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2013, 12:23:07 AM »
Is the Koozali Foundation already 'twinned' with the similarly
named town/city of Koozali in the Golestan province of Iran?
http://www.irangpsmap.com/ShowCity.asp?id=29136&GM=0&lang=1

Mis-translation of the actual name of that town.

----
Greg J. Zartman
LEI Engineering & Surveying

SME user and community member since 2000.

Offline gzartman

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2013, 12:27:11 AM »
Any branding is better defended with a recognisable logoform.

Patience everyone....   It's not even been a week since we made the update about the Foundation. 

We've been given some concepts by a graphic designer.  As soon as we refine the search a bit, we'll put some options up for everyone to look at and comment on.  No point in putting up a bunch of designs that don't remotely meet our needs.

Greg
----
Greg J. Zartman
LEI Engineering & Surveying

SME user and community member since 2000.

Offline purvis

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2013, 08:11:19 AM »
I believe a name for the server should be something that server does well at.
A lot of work(TIME) and money goes in making of the server. From the past experience I have had with the server. I can really say there has been few software that has been as dependable and packaged  with more than basic needs of most servers than SME provides. It is a linux server with the work attitude of a mule.
I would think that idea, a stable, not much nonsense to operate, reliable, hard to break server is what SME is and a name should be given it that resembles what SME brings to the needs of it's users.
I want SME to continue and succeed. That is in my own best interest to be selfish about it.

I think the best way to get others on board with a SME server is for new comers to take it as serious work mule of a server.
Maybe even Besty, similar to Betsy(a common name for a mule) might be good.  I am pulling your leg. And an actual real mule did break my arm when I was a young.

I still think a memorable, easy  and sayableJ name would work better if it closely matches what the product actual is and also a name that would be worthy of the hard dedicated work put into it. Just as people associate cost with quality. They associate frilly names with non quality and short term usage(things that do not last). Anybody know a Tina.

« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 08:20:30 AM by purvis »

Offline Stefano

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2013, 09:40:44 AM »
Purvis

I'm a SME user since it was E-smith and site (and forums) was on e-smith.org..

when it changed the name I was very disappointed with it but..

people follow the product, not the name

now you have, as usual, 2 possibilities:
- be part of the game
- go away

I can't see any kind of "[silver|gold|platinum] supporter" on your profile.. does it mean you are not donating anything?

Offline ReetP

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2013, 11:49:35 AM »
I believe a name for the server should be something that server does well at.

So how does that figure with names like Windows (which is anything but reliable half the time) or say Apple and Mac - what do THEY say about the product ? You do not NEED to make the name anything to do with the product to make it successful. Anyone for a Snickers ? What is a Ford Escort anyway ? What on earth IS a Boeing 747 ? Sexy name isn't it ? Not. You only know it is a car or a plane or a chocolate bar because the advertising, branding and marketing TELLS you that. I am sure we could produce a million example of this.

Quote
A lot of work(TIME) and money goes in making of the server.

Yes, we are working hard. What about you ?

Quote
From the past experience I have had with the server. I can really say there has been few software that has been as dependable and packaged  with more than basic needs of most servers than SME provides. It is a linux server with the work attitude of a mule.

We know.

Quote
I would think that idea, a stable, not much nonsense to operate, reliable, hard to break server is what SME is and a name should be given it that resembles what SME brings to the needs of it's users.

See above. It isn't NECESSARY. And as I said before, you can have Koozali SME server (not that SME server says everything there is to say in any event)

Quote
I want SME to continue and succeed. That is in my own best interest to be selfish about it.

Oh I am sure of that.

You (and unfortunately a lot of others) WANT a lot, but probably aren't contributing ANYTHING, apart from criticism on a subject which you clearly don't understand.

We have 30,000 or installations out there. But a few hundred subscribe to the lists, probably similar in the forums. Where are the other few thousand admins who make money from the installation and service ? If they aren't prepared to either help, or donate sensibly then those who ARE doing the work can make whatever decisions they feel is best for the system.

Remember - our current income is a few hundred dollars a month which is pathetic and doesn't cover the costs of the hardware.

If we can't up the voluntary contributions I can tell you NOW that we will have no choice but to look at other ways to raise revenue. Now whether that is by sponsorship, or charging for commercial use or whatever, it HAS to happen for this place to survive.

So, the upshot is get involved, do something, pay something, and be involved in the planning and future.

Quote
I think the best way to get others on board with a SME server is for new comers to take it as serious work mule of a server.

To do that we have to market and sell it correctly. As above, the name is completely irrelevant.

Quote
Maybe even Besty, similar to Betsy(a common name for a mule) might be good.  I am pulling your leg. And an actual real mule did break my arm when I was a young.

Now you really ARE taking a flight of fantasy....

Quote
I still think a memorable, easy  and sayableJ name would work better if it closely matches what the product actual is and also a name that would be worthy of the hard dedicated work put into it. Just as people associate cost with quality. They associate frilly names with non quality and short term usage(things that do not last). Anybody know a Tina.

You still clearly know nothing about the power of branding and marketing. Rolls Royce ?? Brand and quality ??? They were two brothers. Does the name tell you they make quality products ? Only NOW, because you know. They BUILT the brand from nothing.

You are looking at it from the perspective of one who is SOLD TO, not the one doing the selling. Please go and have a good read around on the whole subject, educate yourself, and rethink things.

B. Rgds
John
« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 03:02:00 PM by ReetP »
...
1. Read the Manual
2. Read the Wiki
3. Don't ask for support on Unsupported versions of software
4. I have a job, wife, and kids and do this in my spare time. If you want something fixed, please help.

Bugs are easier than you think: http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help

If you love SME and don't want to lose it, join in: http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation

Offline janet

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2013, 12:57:35 PM »
purvis

Quote
......a name should be given it that resembles what SME brings to the needs of it's users.
I still think a memorable, easy  and sayableJ name would work better if it closely matches what the product actual is and also a name that would be worthy of the hard dedicated work put into it. ...... Anybody know a Tina.

Really your comments about the name are too late, the decision has already been made & I'm sure it will not be changed. You had a chance 4 months ago to get involved & you did not take up that opportunity, so you forfeited your chance to get involved in creating the new name.

Please end this topic.
 
....and yes I do know a Tina, a very clever sharp minded lady who runs her own business. If you are suggesting all Tinas are automatically of less intelligence, then you are very wrong & perhaps even a male chauvinist pig I'd say.
Please search before asking, an answer may already exist.
The Search & other links to useful information are at top of Forum.

Offline piran

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2013, 02:39:21 PM »
See above. It isn't NECESSARY. And as I said before, you can have Koozali
I have stopped short of quoting your typo on our brand name so
that the search engines do not maintain that typo via the quote.
Please edit your post to keep branding references consistent.

Offline ReetP

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2013, 03:05:57 PM »
I have stopped short of quoting your typo on our brand name so
that the search engines do not maintain that typo via the quote.
Please edit your post to keep branding references consistent.

:shock:


Ooops :-) I seemed to have misspelled Koozali. I have corrected it....

Thank you VERY much for being so observant and for picking that up.

I should know better ;-) I'll go outside and flog myself now.

Many thanks.

B. Rgds
John
...
1. Read the Manual
2. Read the Wiki
3. Don't ask for support on Unsupported versions of software
4. I have a job, wife, and kids and do this in my spare time. If you want something fixed, please help.

Bugs are easier than you think: http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help

If you love SME and don't want to lose it, join in: http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation

Offline piran

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2013, 03:07:56 PM »
Don't flog too hard ;-)

Offline purvis

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2013, 09:01:34 PM »
I have had my say anout what i thought would help the new SME to suceed  and tried to make a point from learned experiences.

I do not think most non profit organizations advertise their name or branding in a big way unless they are marketing towards a large group to ask for donation from them, say like  United Way, Red Cross, etc. International and national companies spend a large percentage of their cost on advertising to get the name in front of potential buyers.

My neighbor use to say "The best lessons are the ones you have to pay for as long as you don't have to pay too much".  She was referring mostly not to money but to all things of life in general.

On another  note.
Everybody on earth has childhood issues. Everyone of us including me. Yes you too. Even Jesus had childhood issues. But there are different levels of it and many times these issues can keep a person from having a happy life. The happy life most people dream of. To overcome these kinds of issues requires one to forgive and go through the issue. You cannot go around. You have to go through it. This hopefully creates a resolution to the issue and gives peace to the individual. Like I said. All people have issues. If one can find the resolution and many times not on their own. Life will be much happier.

Offline ReetP

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2013, 10:46:34 AM »
I have had my say anout what i thought would help the new SME to suceed  and tried to make a point from learned experiences.


Unfortunately however well meant your comments are, you are talking to people who have quite a lot of experience in this field :-) Not ALL of us are coders/devs..... I think you may be surprised when you see things come together a bit more. Just give it a chance. As I mentioned, I would have liked to have launched everything together, but equally wanted people to know what was going on.

The best thing you can do right now to help is either donate, or get involved with v9.

Quote
I do not think most non profit organizations advertise their name or branding in a big way unless they are marketing towards a large group to ask for donation from them, say like  United Way, Red Cross, etc. International and national companies spend a large percentage of their cost on advertising to get the name in front of potential buyers.

Don't get mixed up between 'Not for Profit' and 'Doing it for Free'. As a NfP we could have a turnover of a million dollars, just so long as we don't make a profit. We need cash to operate. End of story.

If this place was a business it would have been bankrupt a long time ago. We run at a loss. This HAS to change.

The simple truth is that the system here cannot run on thin air. Unfortunately, many people think they can just take and get it all for free and nothing has to be paid for, but they forget there are costs in all the infrastructure that have to be paid for. This just hasn't really been discussed or publicised much before and is a situation we have to change.

We therefore have to tackle two problems :

1. Raise sufficient funds to maintain the current infrastructure.

2. If people want new developments, and want them in a hurry, then we need to raise funds to aid future development be it employ a developer to work on specific items or whatever.


If we can't raise funds for No 1 voluntarily then we will have to look at other sources of revenue, be that sponsorship, advertising, subscription or whatever.

Yes, that sounds painful, but it has to be done. It wouldn't change the Open Source status of the basic software. But we have to do something, somehow, as we cannot run at personal loss forever.

No 2 is something that I am sure many would like to see, but we need to seriously up our game to make it happen. That means everyone has to contribute in some way, shape or form.

Onwards & upwards :-)

B. Rgds
John
...
1. Read the Manual
2. Read the Wiki
3. Don't ask for support on Unsupported versions of software
4. I have a job, wife, and kids and do this in my spare time. If you want something fixed, please help.

Bugs are easier than you think: http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help

If you love SME and don't want to lose it, join in: http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation

Offline mikedawson

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2013, 01:36:54 PM »
Hi,

I've been using SME Server and have developed some mods that I'm putting up on sourceforge.net shortly - mostly around bandwidth management.  I love the development model of SME server, and I don't like the way other similar projects try and get the intellectual property rights for any add on, plug-in etc.

I run an IT company in Afghanistan (www.paiwastoon.net); as well now as a company in Dubai Internet City.  We did the One Laptop Per Child pilot there, and I've been working on putting per user bandwidth management into SME server.  I have a small business appliance system in the works for people on the other side of the digital/bandwidth divide.  We have literally battle tested SME Server :) .  It's our Net Speed Manager server that is based on SME Server.  Right now it's running about 8 Internet connections in Kabul as a test.

I'd be interested to know:

1. How much infrastructure cost are we talking here?  I read over the forums and a few posts - I didn't see what the numbers look like.  Is this mostly hosting the downloads?

2. I went over some numbers looking at how we're going to launch our magic black box appliance - there are definitely places that could be monetized.  Moodle has an interesting partner model for service providers - flat yearly fee plus a percentage of Moodle revenue to be given to the moodle foundation.  Is something like that up for consideration? 

Then all those folks looking to cash in on SME server can get some marketing;  those looking for help can find solution providers, and the foundation itself can get some money in.

Regards,

-Mike

Offline stephdl

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2013, 09:51:33 PM »
Hi,

I've been using SME Server and have developed some mods that I'm putting up on sourceforge.net shortly - mostly around bandwidth management.  I love the development model of SME server, and I don't like the way other similar projects try and get the intellectual property rights for any add on, plug-in etc.

I'm very curious to see your sme mod as i have seen the short video of presentation, can we test  ourself your work. it needs a wiki page and a link to binaries, eventually the src.rpm could be nice to look on the way you do this contrib.

Quote
I run an IT company in Afghanistan (www.paiwastoon.net); as well now as a company in Dubai Internet City.  We did the One Laptop Per Child pilot there, and I've been working on putting per user bandwidth management into SME server.  I have a small business appliance system in the works for people on the other side of the digital/bandwidth divide.  We have literally battle tested SME Server :) .  It's our Net Speed Manager server that is based on SME Server.  Right now it's running about 8 Internet connections in Kabul as a test.

Nice website :p

Quote
I'd be interested to know:

1. How much infrastructure cost are we talking here?  I read over the forums and a few posts - I didn't see what the numbers look like.  Is this mostly hosting the downloads?
Contribs.org is hosting by Shad on his own server farm, repositories are shared by people over the world to help the project (i own aubrac-medical.fr)....we can say right now that there is no business plan, and less money in pockets. Simply i hope that in few time "Things they are changing"

hum it was a song no ?

Quote
2. I went over some numbers looking at how we're going to launch our magic black box appliance - there are definitely places that could be monetized.  Moodle has an interesting partner model for service providers - flat yearly fee plus a percentage of Moodle revenue to be given to the moodle foundation.  Is something like that up for consideration? 

Then all those folks looking to cash in on SME server can get some marketing;  those looking for help can find solution providers, and the foundation itself can get some money in.

Every ideas are good and especially when we speak about money raising :p

But there are many kind of ways to help the project, effectively you can make a monthly donation and you may as you were saying give some percentage of your customer bill to the contribs.org. All doors are open in this case.
Don't forget that money is really important but people working in bugzilla, or editing documentations are completely necessary. Ideally If we are aware of the contribs health we have to do both, a financial donation and we must give some times to work together on the project.

Quote
Regards,

-Mike

Nice to see you, may you subscribe on mailling list, notably the discussion list which is more appropriate to discuss of these purposes.
See http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation
irc : Freenode #sme_server #sme-fr

!!! Please write your knowledge to the Wiki !!!

Offline gzartman

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2013, 07:10:15 PM »
Hi,

1. How much infrastructure cost are we talking here?  I read over the forums and a few posts - I didn't see what the numbers look like.  Is this mostly hosting the downloads?

Our current, BAREBONES, running costs right now are about $31,000 per year.   This includes only the hard costs of hardware, utilities, and ISP to provide the contribs.org community services (e.g., forums, mailing lists, wiki, etc) and the buildsys (i.e., the system that automates much of the building of the distro rpms).   There are NO allowances here for any compensation to individuals who run and maintain all of these services.

Our current revenue (via donations) is $5,000-$6,000 per year.  So, we are $25,000 per year in the red.   This deficit is made up by the generosity of 1-2 individuals.  Without this, SME Server as a project would have been dead a long time ago. This HAS to change. 

I'm one of the board members of Koozali Foundation, Inc, the new foundation started recently to manage the community assets.  We are working to put together a proper budget and develop ways to increase revenue for maintaining the community and disto.   As soon as we have something, we'll post it for all to see and comment.

Greg
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 07:30:00 PM by gzartman »
----
Greg J. Zartman
LEI Engineering & Surveying

SME user and community member since 2000.

Offline mikedawson

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2013, 06:08:14 PM »
Hi,

Sorry for the delayed response - was travelling.  Wow - that's a shortfall of $2K/month.  That is rather a lot of generosity and and unfortunately an unsustainable proposition.

I was planning anyway on putting a portion of SME related sales into donations - that likely take a couple months before we launch..  Re the contrib plugin that I made - the code and binary rpms going up is a work in progress, I'm planning to have that done around mid June.  That will include the .src.rpm, and I'll put the project on sf.net (which also nicely saves on hosting bandwidth costs...)

I was reading re. the Koozali foundation and I'll look forward to seeing the proposed revenue streams.  I spent quite a bit of time going through revenue models that I saw around the bandwidth systems and appliances.  I think a lot of people; as is rightly so with open source software, have got revenue streams around SME services (running, maintenance, hosting VPNs, etc).  But enough has to come back.  I have done coding for around 12 years now; but it was business school that I dropped out of.

What is frustrating about SME server competitors is that one company is attempting to monopolize all the revenue opportunities around it (e.g. ClearOS, Zentyal, etc) as opposed to having a marketplace with a variety of providers.  I also suspect customers prefer the latter - so they know they have somewhere else to turn if required.

Sure some of this already occurred to you guys...

Paying to get into a service provider's directory or sponsorship would have appeal to a lot of service providers I would hope (I can say it holds so for me).    Do you have download stats on how many people are downloading SME Server and traffic to the website? 

Paying to be an official training partner - though one of the great things about SME server is how little training is needed to take care of it.

Perhaps even more interesting and helpful would be to throw up a quick survey on the homepage and ask for those who are providing services around SME Server to at least answer a few questions about what they would pay for....

But in the meantime I look forward to seeing the budget/revenue generating ideas and comment when that comes out.  Moodle, OpenERP, and the like spring to mind following similar business models.  I'm happy to help both with input/review and most importantly likely with participating thereafter.

Regards,

-Mike

Offline RvLardin

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Re: Foundation - the future of SME.....
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2013, 04:19:41 PM »
Hi all,

I represent one of the (so many ?) compagnies who make their business on top of SME-server.
I'm very attached of working on a "community-driven" distro either than a one with a commercial editor behind.  This makes a lot of meanings for me, and I hope things will go in this way, even if lot of people need to have a "structure" to better understand the whole project. There is not so much distro in our world who still exist in such a "community" organization and i'm very attached to it.

Regarding the name changing, i'm as lot of us a bit despite but we have kown the transformation from E-SMITH to SME a few years ago and it was a hard change. So, i think we can deal with that.
We also experienced a very painfull rebirth once, when we were to deal with SME 6, appart from Mittel. I think we got the power (and the glory ?) to win this new challenge.

My hope will be that the new organization can find a good balance between money contributions and other ways of contributing. For me there is not a so big difference between a contributor who test and feed the wiki or the bug-tracker, some-one who reply to posts in the forums, some-one who just write an how-to and those who are involved in core-dev. My feeling is that contribution is made on a volontary basis, whatever it could be. Most of people, in the first times, don't contribute so much : everything is open, it's not a problem.

For us, we contribute as we can. Sometimes by creating some usefull contribs and sometimes by money donation. It seems to me important to find a good way to balance every contributions, allways on an unconstrained volonte.

Long life to the new e-smith organization and many thanks to those who are doing the hard job for that !
:)

RV.
----
"Those who are willing to lose some of their essential liberties in favour of security deserve neither and will lose both."
- Thomas Jefferson .