Topic: EspoCRM vs e.g. VTiger

[guest22]

I did not want to hijack or disturb the other technical post/discussion about EspoCRM.

@Charles2008,

May I ask what your considerations are/were to try EspoCRM opposed to other solutions like VTiger6 please? I took a quick look at EspoCRM and I could not find any reporting tools? Which in my opinion are very important with any data being collected.

Just curious.

Thanks,
guest

edit: typo

[Charles2008]

HI HF,

Very happy to discuss this.

I have looked at vTiger and Dolibarr as a CRM and I haven't felt 100% 'comfortable' with them.

vTiger - https://demo.vtiger.com/ - it was too comprehensive - to my mind it had lost focus on a lean, mean CRM. It had decided to incorporate quotes, invoices etc etc - too complex IMHO - this should be handled in a proper ERP where the Quote -> Sale -> Invoice belongs. Also it wasn't intuitive (some might say simple enough) for me. To my mind, too much time inputting info and not enough banging the phone and emails. Any CRM has to be 'temp friendly'.

Dolibarr - http://demo.dolibarr.org/public/demo/index.php - not as slick as vTiger, but I liked it better. But again they have had a go at accounting also - it's not double-entry, so IMHO is weak. They have taken their eye off CRM as a consequence IMHO. Some really good ideas but usability could be improved IMO.

EpesiBIM - http://epe.si/live-demo - A nice looking bit of software but it had a touch of the vTiger about it. Also, it was too slow for me - would have driven me mad.

EspoCRM - http://demo.espocrm.de/basic/ - I am always on the lookout for a good simple, quick CRM. It's very early days. I was intrigued by it's seeming flexibility and it is quite simple. If it works (I really haven't properly tested it yet) it may be the tool I am looking for.

Reporting tools - Are you talking about things like:
- numbers of new leads
- conversion rate
- Ratio's of leads at various stages of development   by salesman, by sales team etc etc   

...   yes I agree weak on this. But I am looking for a simple CRM that works operationally like Freddy Flintstones club, I want it to replace the old, traditional boxes of dog-eared, grubby contact cards. I don't think that I need the frills   ...   yet.

Also, and this is a big deal to me - it isn't 'Hotel California' software  (you can adopt it, but leaving is a terribly disruptive pain). The exit door is open - is that honestly true of vTiger? (as an aside, that was one of my concerns with eGroupware).

Is there anything in particular you are looking for Reporting-wise? You have awakened my interest 

What I am already disappointed by is the inability to sort Customers (Customer groups and Opportunity status groups ) by 'last contact date'. I need to examine further how it copes with sales-teams and individual sales-people. No mobile connectivity etc (Freddy wouldn't mind this though). Also the one page of Account info could be more comprehensive.

Jury is still out my end. But the devs seem responsive and, as I said, it is early days.

I would be v interested in your opinion, as I know that you have an interest in this sort of thing.

BTW, I am very grateful to mmccarn for his inquisitive help. That ibay install could have seriously damaged my marriage 

EDIT: Other FOSS CRM's that are 'worth a look' IMHO:
FatFreeCRM  - http://demo.fatfreecrm.com/login   (demo, demo)   ...   Ruby on Rails
civiCRM   -  https://civicrm.org/go/demo   (Drupal)   ...  specialist charity app. Excellent Social Media capability and e-integration.
XRMS  -  http://360team.ca/demo/xrms/login.php?target=%2Fdemo%2Fxrms%2Fprivate%2Fhome.php   (user1, user1)   ...   a bit outdated/outclassed now.

[guest22]

Hi Charles,

fair enough. Just to make sure, you did take a look at VTiger 6.0? (not 5.4, that's old)

Both products look very similar re logging data regarding contacts, companies, relations and contact moments. And yes, VTiger has additional (accounting related) modules turned on by default, and they can easily be disabled by the admin, or some of them. (So you stop at the quote stage, won/lost) That would make it a fair comparison functionality wise. What's left is reporting, queries, filters etc etc, based pre-defined queries of custom queries, on any (custom) fields you want. I believe that since we are collecting data and logging events, we might as well as much of the to be able to do some analysis on them in time of need, to improve (marketing/sales) efforts or to adjust processes.

And automatic workflows:
"If promised to call, put it in the agenda as a reminder and send me a reminer mail at this and that date" . Very powerful.

Anyway, I like VTiger 6.x and was curious what business judgments you' ve made, and you made that clear

I've got VTiger 6.x running on both SME 8 and 9, so that is no problem.

Thanks for sharing,
guest

[Charles2008]

I think that EspoCRM is v young. But looks promising.

Collecting data, logging events + custom fields -> analysis   ...   agree totally. Perhaps a tool like Reportico might be helpful here.

Yes, as I recall, I got vTiger 6 working - really lovely looking - looked slick.

[Charles2008]

In the past I have installed on SMEserver - vTiger, Dolibarr, EpesiBIM, XRMS and, of course (with mmccarn's help) EspoCRM.

I haven't installed FatFreeCRM on SME, but although I think that it is in general a very good CRM for a micro/small business (it has good workflow), I have been put off by the speed of the demo. I have assumed that this was due to it being a Ruby on Rails app - could this be correct, or would this make no difference if hosted locally?

[Bud]

Charles2008

Please can you explain how you managed to get vtiger 6 installed on sme 8.1.

I have successfully installed 5.4 and version 6 however in version 6 i cannot get the mail manager to work as it keeps showing a revolving circle and does not give me the option to " create " a user mail account in vtiger 6

Any help greatly appreciated 

[Charles2008]

@Bud

It was SME8 and > 8 months ago and VTiger 6 beta.
I don't recall anything out of the ordinary. However, I didn't configure the mail manager.

RequestedDeletion is more knowledgeable about vTiger than myself.

[ReetP]

FWIW....

Another suggestion to look at is the egroupware fork http://www.tine20.org though I haven't tried it in ages since it was very early alpha. Did look quite nice.

We use vTiger 5.4 here though my biggest gripe is with the vTiger team who don't seem to be interested in backporting fixes so you have to use svn if you want to keep on top etc. Always 'upgrade' which I don't always want to do. It's all a bit messy quite honestly. v6 is a big leap from 5.x and not a simple jump.

The vTiger devs don't tend to listen much to their open source devs, and it is often a revolving door with good devs coming in with bright ideas, and lots of good patches, who are ignored and then leave again. vTiger have their own agenda and I don't believe are really interested in the Open Source part beyond the badge. Of course that is their perogative, but it may influence those who use it.

One of the long time OS devs has recently forked 5.4 and is developing it himself as a result - see http://corebos.org/

He decided that he didn't want the pain of moving a lot of clients to a platform that didn't offer the client significantly more than the previous version. Yes the 6 framework may well be better, but it's a lot of upheaval.

Saying all that, I believe it is pretty easy to disable modules, and from what I understand v6 is fundamentally a much better platform to develop on.

We have found vTiger to be very stable, quick and reliable, though it pays to have yourself a decent dev about if you want it tweaked a bit.

B. Rgds
John

[Bud]

RequestedDeletion please can you help me.

I have an SME 8 32Bit server with vTiger 5.40 and a lot of data. All works fine.

I have built a new SME 8.1 64Bit server and have created the same vtiger database as the SME 8 32Bit server vtiger installation.

I imported the database from the old SME 8 32Bit server vtiger installation using " phpmyadmin " on to the New SME 8.1 64Bit server

I then " copied " all the Files and Folders from the old SME 8 32Bit server vtiger installation to the New SME 8.1 64Bit server.

When i go to " http://new64bitsmeip/myvtiger/ " i get the following message " Migration Incompleted "

Any ideas what i can look for to get vtiger going on my New SME 8.1 64Bit server or must i do a new vtiger install then import the database from the SME 8 32Bit server? If i do that what do i do about all the Douments, Notes etc. from the Old SME 8 32Bit server?

Any help greatly appreciated 

[Stefano]

The error message should be self explanatory
Did You search on vtiger site / documentation?

[ReetP]

Have a look here for starters :

https://wiki.vtiger.com/index.php/Migration

Not sure what steps you took and where it failed so can't help that much.

You may get more help in the vtiger forums or dev list as it is a vTiger rather than SME issue.

B. Rgds
John

[Charles2008]

@Bud

What was the outcome of your installation issues regarding VTiger 6.0?

If it was solved in a vTiger forum etc, can you post a link please.

[Bud]

Charles2008

sorry for the delay guys

i have decided to build a new sme 9 server and then try vtiger 6

i will revert on my findings

[Charles2008]

@Bud - any update on your CRM / vTiger?

[ReetP]

@Bud - any update on your CRM / vTiger?

Are you stuck on something ? vtiger should install quite easily - RequestedDeletion has it running. I have an older 5.4 which runs on v8 as I am not sure whether to upgrade or move to something else at the minute.

There used to be an old vtiger contrib about that helped with some settings and I think it installed in /opt but vtiger will happily run in an ibay with the right settings.

Let us know if we can help.

B. Rgds
John

[Charles2008]

Apologies for the tardy reply - I must have missed the alert email.

I know that I have to implement a CRM system (and I have been avoiding it).

It is such a simple requirement at it's most basic level (well suited to FOSS) - just a list to replace a box of dog-eared contact cards. However, all the current offerings have embraced complexity and have tried to offer 'all things to all men' becoming unfocussed and needlessly complex.

Amoungst the more promising candidates seem to be - Dolibarr, EspoCRM and vTiger   ...   but I haven't had time to re-test the latest incarnations - hence the query to Bud.

[guest22]

It is such a simple requirement at it's most basic level (well suited to FOSS) - just a list to replace a box of dog-eared contact cards. However, all the current offerings have embraced complexity and have tried to offer 'all things to all men' becoming unfocussed and needlessly complex.

How about sharing a contact list via your existing groupware? (Zarafa or SoGO)

[Stefano]

maybe using this approach:

http://forums.contribs.org/index.php/topic,51975.0.html

[Charles2008]

@HFW
At the MOST basic level that would suffice (and thanks for the suggestion BTW - it is a good one). However, perhaps I should have been a little more detailed in my requirement - which I am sure is very similar to most small businesses:

Off the top of my head:

BASIC REQUIREMENTS:
- Details of customer, address, tel number, contacts
- Last contact date, next contact date
- Notes (in date order and easily understandable - where Dolibarr is weak IMHO)
- Being able to search and order all above i.e. all 'Next Contacts' that fall within the next 7 days

HIGHER LEVEL REQUIREMENT:
- Being able to synch 'Next Contacts' into a central calendar or To-Do list (Tasks list)
- 'One-click' telephoning of customer (needs headset) - Dolibarr has this
- Geo-locate - e.g. if I have a business meeting in Birmingham, who is nearby or on-route that I can have a quick meeting with /  invite to a little seminar / have a beer with etc.
- Marketing  - ability to do targeted mailshot with relevant info / offer - quite a few CRM's offer this

FEATURES NOT NEEDED:
- linking CRM and orders - vTiger can do this


This list is very cusory.

@Stefano - just seen your post. Thank you for the link - I will have a look.

[ReetP]

Charles,

On one hand you say...

It is such a simple requirement at it's most basic level (well suited to FOSS) - just a list to replace a box of dog-eared contact cards. However, all the current offerings have embraced complexity and have tried to offer 'all things to all men' becoming unfocussed and needlessly complex.

And on the other :

BASIC REQUIREMENTS:
Blah....

HIGHER LEVEL REQUIREMENT:
- Being able to synch 'Next Contacts' into a central calendar or To-Do list (Tasks list)
- 'One-click' telephoning of customer (needs headset) - Dolibarr has this
- Geo-locate - e.g. if I have a business meeting in Birmingham, who is nearby or on-route that I can have a quick meeting with /  invite to a little seminar / have a beer with etc.
- Marketing  - ability to do targeted mailshot with relevant info / offer - quite a few CRM's offer this

Some things often sound so simple (geo-locate etc), but take a much higher level of complexity to implement, and your requirements aren't necessarily that simple !

Your Higher Level requirements are completely at odds with your KISS thoughts.

I think you are either going to have to keep it simple and forego a lot on your wish list, or bite the bullet and go for something much more complex - not that it will make any great difference in use to your server if there is only the odd user on it.

vTiger is a good product - just a shame their attitude on 'Open Source' sucks ! YetiForce is a fork of vTiger 6.x with quite a few improvements, but despite promising a brave new world, they are as bad as vTiger IMHO.

Another thing you may consider looking at is another vTiger fork called CoreBos - this is primarily based on maintaining and improving the solid vTiger 5.4 - the boss of the company that run it is a very nice guy called Joe Bordes. He can help you with customisations etc.

So in short, it's make your mind up time. KISS or all in

B. Rgds
John

[Charles2008]

John,

Totally agree. I would be happy to run with a CRM that did the basic very well and wasn't 'Hotel California software' - difficult to leave and import data into a new CRM solution.

The 'Higher Level Requirements' would just make me even happier.

[Xavier.A]

@Charles2008,

I'm working with my students on this.
For the moment it's not easy to implement for end-user. You really need to be confortable with gradle and java development but it's worth it !

You will find the code here and documentation there.

Feel free to participate with Axelor, a dynamic and friendly french SME !

A+

PS: If you tried Odoo (ex OpenERP/ ex TinyERP) then you already know Axelor

[Stefano]

@Charles2008,

I'm working with my students on this.
For the moment it's not easy to implement for end-user. You really need to be confortable with gradle and java development but it's worth it !

You will find the code here and documentation there.

Feel free to participate with Axelor, a dynamic and friendly french SME !

A+

PS: If you tried Odoo (ex OpenERP/ ex TinyERP) then you already know Axelor

Xavier.. is it anything that can be easily installed on SME?

if so, please give us details and an howto
if not, please don't make self advertising, thank you

[Xavier.A]

Xavier.. is it anything that can be easily installed on SME?

if so, please give us details and an howto
if not, please don't make self advertising, thank you

http://www.axelor.com/docs/adk/quickstart/index.html

[Stefano]

http://www.axelor.com/docs/adk/quickstart/index.html

so nothing easy to install on SME, no centOS howto, packages from github.

[Charles2008]

If anyone is interested to have a look at the FatFreeCRM demo, they have changed the password (and i can no longer amend my original post) - it is now in small letters beneath the large 'LAUNCH DEMO' button on the Home page (took me ages to see it - obvious, of course, now).

http://fatfreecrm.com/

Thanks to John's 'gentle encouragement' I have had another look at FatFreeCRM. It looks good.

[ReetP]

Thanks to John's 'gentle encouragement' I have had another look at FatFreeCRM. It looks good.

 

I'm just in charge of "Stating the Bleedin Obvious" Department



Sometimes there's TOO much choice. Never easy.

B. Rgds
John

[Charles2008]

@XavierA

I have taken a look at your Alexor.com demo and it reminds me of EspoCRM. It is a pity that I couldn't change it from French to English, however, that is a small issue as it is still in development.

I confess that when I saw the ERP alongside it, my heart sank. I believe that to get a CRM 'right' is a demanding task in itself and to get an ERP right - well, I haven't found one that is 'right' to date (particularly if one is looking to manage inventory)!

[warren]

....

Another thing you may consider looking at is another vTiger fork called CoreBos - this is primarily based on maintaining and improving the solid vTiger 5.4 - the boss of the company that run it is a very nice guy called Joe Bordes. He can help you with customisations etc.

So in short, it's make your mind up time. KISS or all in

B. Rgds
John

I did a quick test install of coreBos ( into an Ibay and it seems to install ok .
Followed install Instructions for ( coreBOS5.5.0 )
http://corebos.tsolucio.com/documentation/doku.php?id=en:install550

[guest22]

Warren, good thing. Can you add your experience to the wiki please?


TIA!


guest