Topic: Sme is dead

[salatar]

With SME going to a fully open community source I have some questions,
before I scrap 7 boxs running SME.

Who is in control of DEV right now?
Who has the source and is activly working on it(security bugfixs etc)
Will any of the Mitel team be helping out at all?
Have you put out a call for Developers on sourceforge or the like?



Please make me feel warm and fuzzy about the security of the boxs

[Boris]

>>Who is in control of DEV right now?

-YOU are if you want to be


>>Who has the source and is activly working on it(security bugfixs etc)

source is available for everyone interested as a free download.

>>Will any of the Mitel team be helping out at all?
-Mitel is not curently interested in the development of this product, but some former members of the "e-smith team" may help in the development as a private parties.


>>Have you put out a call for Developers on sourceforge or the like?

-not yet on the sourceforge. Its a bit premature to call for help until where is todo list. If you willing to help, send e-mail to staff@contribs.org, or simple wait until todo list published and see if any parts of it YOU are willing to take.

[Mike]

SME is being killed off and going open source? I didn't know that.

salatar wrote:

> With SME going to a fully open community source I have some
> questions,
> before I scrap 7 boxs running SME.
>
> Who is in control of DEV right now?
> Who has the source and is activly working on it(security
> bugfixs etc)
> Will any of the Mitel team be helping out at all?
> Have you put out a call for Developers on sourceforge or the
> like?
>
>
>
> Please make me feel warm and fuzzy about the security of the
> boxs

[Arne]

Is there avaivable any system documentation for the sme/e-smith. The User manual and the system administrator manual says allmost nothing about the real buildup of the sme/e-smith server.

If anybody should take over anything, I believe one major thing would be som more explanations of the things that makes the e-smith to be a e-smith. Theese things are not so easy to find out about by just reading the scripts and source code.

If there were some more detailed explanations about how things really works, lets say these perl scripts that are making the configuration files, tose smart scripts that are managing things in runlevel 7, not to mention this wery smart thing that can make backup to the desctop.

Is there available some kind of modular or system level discriptions of how things really work ? What about a detailed explanation of each step of the startup prosess in runlevel 7, does something like that exist, and is it available ??

I have seen the descriptions on the e-smith page:
http://www.e-smith.org/architecture/

I believe this is a little bit to little. Does anybody know if there is available some more and "deeper" documentation ??

By the way .. Is it anybody who knows why Mitel is closing down the e-smith project, is it because the commersial variant can not be sold, or is it because it can be sold to well so they don't want the "competition" from a free variant ?? (I guess this question might have something to say for how easy it is to optain the system documentation.)

[Graham]

Is that what happens when it comes down to money ?

If everyone who had a SME CD in their case (and admitted
that it helped them make some cash) owned up and was
perpared to pay a 'subscription' would that have helped ?

Mandrake seem to be keeping their head above water.

I think its  a shame that Mitel didnt at least put this
forward as an option ?

Or am I being completely naive here.

SME at the end of the day is a free (as in free beer)
distro that is exceptionally good at what it does and was
designed for.

As soon as there is hard cash involved people will start
to look at the next free solutiuon that does something similar
for no money.

I for one would have paid a 'fair price' if it was released
as a commercial product (with discount for members:)

Kyzo charge 100 GBP for their server solutions and seem to
have succeeded (altho I think its a touch expensive and
does not have as many features as SME)

Would you pay for your copy of SME ???

[Nathan Fowler]

SME/E-Smith is based off the RedHat distribution, it's safe to assume that the recent changes to RedHat and Fedora have prompted this response from Mitel/SME.

It would be pretty hard to generate a stable server line when the base OS's product life is around three months.

[Mark]

Why wouldn't SME just switch to a base model of Fedora?  Then they are back in the same situation as before.  

I think the bottom line is maintaing the SME for Mitel costs more money (and lost sales) than the benifit received from releasing it to developers.

[%sig%]

[Arne]

Yes, I would pay if the price vere reasonable, and I would also try to sell it to more customers.

By the way, as I understand it is not for sale, I will rather try to find out how it work so I (if possible) will be able to find or in one or the other way modify a Linux dstribution that will be able to do some of the same functions as the E-smith.

http://forums.contribs.org/index.php?topic=19214.msg76003#msg76003

[Charlie]

Nathan Fowler wrote:

> SME/E-Smith is based off the RedHat distribution, it's safe
> to assume that the recent changes to RedHat and Fedora have
> prompted this response from Mitel/SME.
>
> It would be pretty hard to generate a stable server line when
> the base OS's product life is around three months.

I've read in a Red Hat newsgroup about installing yum or apt and getting updates for RH8, RH9, or Fedora Core 1. If you can get updates for several versions back wouldn't the life of the product be much longer than 3 months?

[Paul]

Charlie,

Redhat has announced that versions of RH up to 8 have and end of life date of 12/31/03 and RH 9 is 4/30/04.

What this means is that RH will no longer take security problems (in any package or application within RH), find a solution or utilize an existing fix and then put out some sort update or upgrade.  RH, up to this point,  has done this in a manner that was easy and readily available.

Redhat knew exactly how their packages and applications are changed, re-written, compiled, etc.  When a problem arose, RH knew exactly how to tackle the problem and come up with the proper solution.

One answer for the future is that the community will address a problem, find an answer and then release some sort of "fix".

Will a fix assembled by the community really fix the "problem" on a RH system?  Who knows, some RH fixes have had to be modified to be applied to SME.

Will there be multiple fixes?

Will Fedora continue to try to release security and bug fixes for older RH versions?

Way too many questions and absolutly no answers.

You can't continue to market one of the most simple, stable and secure system and still base it on a distro that will become more complicated, unstable and insecure.  IT JUST MAKE NO SENSE!

As for Fedora.  I admire the spirit in those with the desire to continue developing a RH offspring and bring it into it's next generation.  This distro will be cutting edge and no doubt full of problems.  Fedora will not mantain updates for legacy products like RH always has (up until now anyway).  Check out their "Legacy Policy"

Quote from Fedora:

Fedora Legacy
"Fedora Legacy" refers to package fixes submitted for old versions of core packages or old releases (releases that have been superceded by a newer release more than 2-3 months before) of Fedora Core by people on an adhoc basis.

Packages in Fedora Legacy are controlled by their respective package maintainers and are subject to the acceptable use policies of the project. Packages in Fedora Legacy can be maintained by anyone who agrees to the project's policies and procedures. The steering committee can be asked to provide guidance, but has no power to remove legacy packages or material within legacy packages. However, legal issues or not following project guidelines may cause packages to lose their "Fedora Legacy" status.

Packages in Fedora Legacy must be built entirely from software meeting the open source guidelines and must be signed with the package's key rather than the Fedora key. RHN will not carry Fedora Legacy content.

Red Hat will provide CVS repositories, ftp and minimal web services, and possibly other facilities needed by the Fedora Legacy packages.

End Quote.

As I read this, Fedora will mantain updates and fixes for maybe 6 months.  Fedora will become a great resource for new technology but should not be used to build a distro like SME on.

I ramble too much!!

Paul

[Arno]

I would pay too.

Thnx 2 SME i know some more things about linux.
so.. i would donate some money. i guess.
anyway i still give them a big hand

[Jason Judge]

>> Would you pay for your copy of SME ???

Of course. When Mitel had control of the product, they made it very difficult for the small-volume user or trader to contribute financially.

To be a reseller you had to be committed to pushing large numbers of boxes to new clients. That is a model that simply does not work for many small companies and individuals making a small or modest amount of money from the distro.

I have seen that happen with other free applications that get taken over by commercial companies - they just charge too much and drive away the very people who got the thing built in the first place.

I would be most happy to contribute a modest amount for every e-smith box I manage to sell.

-- JJ

[J]

First off, respect to SME, Respect to E-Smith.

Am a newbie to Linux/SME, but found this to be a quality product, and pretty easy to use (theres plenty of help available).  If this had been "trial" software I would have *def* paid the upgrade fee.

Perhaps this would be an option?  I hate time bombs and crippleware, but constant nagging reminder screeens a la Winzip (bought, then got XP!) bug me enough to buy.

J.

[steve]

Only ever used it as a hobbyist and yes always happy to pay say 30 UKP for it.

[Tony Howden]

Hi All

Well, I can only say I tried.

Spent hours chasing the Mitel people here in Oz. Finally after three interstate phone calls, I tracked down a sales guy who appeared to at least know that Mitel had a thing called SME.

He tells me that I need to sign an NDA for dealer type papers to be given to me so that I can pay for the products and sell them on to my clients. They'll be faxed to me soon.

A week later, another phone call, and again the papers will be faxed. This time they arrive. I fill them out and fax them back the same afternoon.

A week later I call, and they cannot find my papers.

Faxed them again.

Ring to confirm that he has my papers. He's left for the day (within 5 minutes of my call).

A week later they can't find my papers.

I gave up.

I have 15 SME servers V5.5 and 3 very stable 6.0b3, 2 of them are my test and play boxes, the rest are commercial in use. All told 15 servers is not going to make a huge difference to the income stream for Mitel, but you gotta start somewhere.

I really did want to pay money for this server software. If they do not want our money then what am I meant to do ?

SME is dead. Long Live SME.

cheers
Tony

[Jason Judge]

I think Mitel have just one business model: you become a fully trained, paid-up member of their sales team and sell the units full time. That is the only way they will accept your money (in the UK, at least) or supply their services to you.

It is a very hands-off approach, and not a model that makes any sense to a small consultancy business who sell the occasional units to clients as part of a broader service.

If Mitel had been a bit more flexible, and not just tried to push high-volume sales, they may have had much more support from their users. Now, Mitel have certainly given a lot to the project - so I am not bitter or complaining - just disappointed that they didn't listen to the smaller company, because it is Mitel who have now lost out.

-- JJ

[Arne]

I wonder what does this "death" of the sme server really meen ? Will it be dead as a open source project and then live on bether than ever as a business project, or will it be dead both as business project and open source project. "Something" tells me that it will not be dead at all, and that it will live on more and bether than ever as a business project while the open souce project will be "dead".  Is it like that ? Anybody who knows ?

[Mats Karlsson]

Funny I had exactly the same experience and my bussiness idea was keept "On hold".

So I had signed up to contribute to the development and are looking forward to a prosperous Open Source project that will match and succsed the RedHat EmailServer Project at sourceforge.


Lets rock.

Mats

[christian burnat]

How do we contribute to the new project,   and how do we support the folks willing to make it happening for us?

For one, I would have no hesitations putting my hand in my pocket for the few boxes I have deployed so far...  And the boxes I hope to deploy in the future -if updates keep rolling out, and things remain stable and secure.

Lets face it, a Win2k server's licence costs $AU1,000+ (Australian dollars) for a few users.  E-smith leaves it for dead anytimes, and cost "nothing" so to speak - except a few dollars here and there to Dungog (how lucky we are really) and a fast learning curve.... And above all,  Its intuitive, reliable, ethical to boot, and great fun as a bonus!.

The bottom of the line is, it was too good to be true.  Similar considerations apply to RH when I think of it.  Here I am with a fully supported version 9 box, complete with updates 2 or 3 times a week, for the cost of a few dollars.   Compare this to what MS would charge for what turns out an inferior product...

It is high time we face the music, and explore how we can salvage this little gem.  E-Smith cannot die. There has to be a middle ground between the price asked by Mitel for the full supported version and the cost of a hand written CD at your local Linux shop.  

How do we go about it?
What is a fair contribution?

cb

[%sig%]

[Jason]

I also tried to purchase a SME server from Mitel.  I went to their site and was directed to a reseller in NC.

After several attempts, the reseller eventually called me back.  I told him what I was looking for and he said he'd never heard of SME or MAS6000 or anything involving a Mitel mail/gateway/workgroup server.  He said he would look it up and call me back.

When he called again, he told me that he found out what the product was, but that he would not be carrying it.  The Mitel site offered no other vendors in my area to provide their products.

We are a large business with over 4000 total employees, of which perhaps only 200 would need/want email, but we could have afforded several thousand dollars for a server.  Instead, we simply deployed SME 5.5 and RAV which has served our purposes beautifully.

I suspect it's quite hard for Mitel to make money on SME when they don't provide a way for people to buy their products or services.