Koozali.org: home of the SME Server
Legacy Forums => Suggestions => Topic started by: Muzo on July 12, 2004, 09:30:08 AM
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Hello,
I saw 2 pages : Documentation and Developpement, twice have same kind of informations : HowTo's.
And it's worse in French, nothing in Documentation, too many things in Developpement.
May some clean these page or merge it?
P.S.: Nobody can change this pages, but only people how locked it can!
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Please post links to the pages you're talking about, so we can take a look ;-)
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These pages are :
http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/
http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php/French%20documentation
http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php/Development
http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php/D%E9veloppement
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Sorry, Muzo, but I just can't see what is wrong with the two English pages ( I can't read the French ones)
The Documentation page has sections for beginners, Installation, The manuals, Searching, Contribs, Misc and Wiki, and is focused on end-user/admins. The Development page has Guidlines, Tools, Bugs, Upcoming Releases, and the Manual, and is focused on developers (Core and add-ons)
They both do have links to manuals and Howto and Contribs - this is just a convenience.
Both pages could certainly be improved - for instance, I'd like to see more of a seperation between 'contrib' development and 'core' development on the dev page. I always figured the developers themselves would suggest any changes they felt desireable.
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I also believe that improvements can be made, maybe we need to brainstorm this a bit.
Muzo, do you want to make a suggestion for how it should be organised and then we can go from there to come up with something more consistant and easier to use.
These pages have been growing over time so a fresh look at this may be in order.
Ian
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Ok, i'll post here a suggestion later (not enough time now)
Stay tuned
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Ok, i found 5 minute. I made a merge of all ideas.
Documentation page, it must be same structure for all language.
1- Basic Documentation
- Introduction
- Design Philosophy
- Architecture overview
- KeyConcept
- GPL
Installation
- Getting started
Manuals
- Manuals SME 5.6
- Manuals SME 6.0-contribs
FAQ
- Administration FAQ
- Installation FAQ
- Security FAQ
- Dysfunctions FAQ
Help
- Newsgroups
- Forums
- Irc
- Contribs.org mailing lists
* Subscription
* Devinfo
* Discussion
How To's and Contribs
- HowTo's
- Contribs
- weblinks
2- Linux Documentation
Developpement page, the best one is english one, but i add an introduction (same page as Documentation, to remember SME's architecture)
Introduction
- Design Philosophy
- Architecture overview
- KeyConcept
Development Guidelines
Development Tools
Bugs
Upcoming releases
Manual
Contact
(contact list like devel@contribs, volunteers@contribs, ... )
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OK, I made a temp example of a new documentation page (for discussion) here http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php?pagename=Temp%20Doc
This has some duplication of the nav bar, etc., but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It'll draw people's attention to the highlights.
What this does do, though, is repurpose the page more toward existing users. That's ok too, but I think we should talk about it. For instance existing users need the wiki doc stuff. Also, I think more explanatory text should be added - for instance the devinfo link needs to be carefully handled.
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And A Dev page here:
http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php?pagename=Temp%20Dev
Both follow Muzo's suggestions above.
Suggestion:
Let's talk about what we want these pages to do, and how, here.
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How To's and Contribs
Maybe this should be a link to the ContribsPage (and some explanatory text) rather than the three links.
I would like to see the
New contrib Announcements - Let the community know about your contribs and How Tos!
Near the top of the ContribsPage (as that does seem a more logical place then the DocPage). It could also have a link on the development page if we think of it as 'Current Development' - we don't need to use this name but thinking in this way means that it is relevant for the Dev page.
I think all of the wiki info could go/stay at the bottom.
Most importantly for me are the RecentChanges/Edits links. Maybe we should link to How-to%20Classification%20Admin and make more active use of it (link to it also from the site-work list etc)
I notice that the manuals are referenced from both pages, but the 'new' manual is only on the docs page.
The volunteering page should be linked from the Dev Page.
Some quick thoughts, however I need to think more when I am more awake.
(On the Dev page there should be a link to the DevTools)
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Good thoughts, esp. if you're asleep :-)
Before we get too deep in the details, though, it seems to me some more general ideas are in order
like, who are our users for the doc page? the dev page?
what kinds of things do they need to see for each?
should we try to get detailed links and explanations on each page, or general links to specific topic pages or what?
should we try to align the English and French pages, or not?
etc.
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Before we get too deep in the details, though, it seems to me some more general ideas are in order
Yes - I was unhappy with my post for exactly that reason. Tomorrow I'll think.
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I updated the pages with something like Ian's suggestions above.
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My thoughts:
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Doc page is for SME Server Users who want to find out how to use SME Server. One part missing is how to make use of SME Server - I know that a very long time ago there was the sme_101, 201 idea which would be ideal after the Getting Started.
Doc Page is not for the Doc Team & Volunteers maintaining the documentation, there should be a seperate page for that linked from here.
Doc Page does not need a link to any email lists, there are no lists for 'end-user' support. Instead the forums & on-line help are provided.
The link to contribs is valid as the end-user wants to bolt on another black-box.
I think that this page is mainly used when making use of SME Server. A person does not care how it actually works (just a black box), instead they want to get a job done.
--
Dev Page is for developers of SME Server, either contribs or core developers. It should include information on how to modify or make RPMs, detailed information on how SME Server works, also how SME Server is being developed (Roadmap),and the Bug List. It should include links into the deveopment community, this means that it links to the Volunteering page, the experienced forum, DevInfo & Discussion email lists - but not Doc list.
It has the guidelines on how to build & submit a contrib. Also how to propose changes in the core, either package changes or how to cope with forks.
Personally I would look at this page to find the dev tools, understand how the guts of SME Server work, and how to feed things back to the community.
This page is used when you want to understand how a task is actually carried out so that you can change it.
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Some information will always be a bit of both, but I think that we should try to avoid overlap where possible.
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A minor detail point
To volunteer to help out at Contribs.org, please use the Volunteering page
I think that the text is wrong, it implies that the page is for helping out at contribs.org (the site). Maybe '...at Contribs.org or in developing SME Server, please...'
Ian
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I agree Wellsi.
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should we try to align the English and French pages, or not?
Yes! There is good ideas in both language, for example, the french FAQ. When i'll got enough time, i'll tried to translate it in english.
And we must find same informations, in both languages.
But don't delete french and english pages.
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The positioning is pretty much parallel to what I had in mind. I went ahead and removed all the volunteer stuff from http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php?pagename=Temp%20Doc
and put it on a new page:
http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php?pagename=Giving%20Back
Feedback very welcome.
Also
I think that the text is wrong,
You're probably correct. Right now, I'm not as interested in the exact wording as I am in getting the right stuff on the right page(s).
As for the French docpages, I'd be happy to incorporate any ideas - I'm sure Hervé did a great job. However, I have no idea if anyone is willing or interested in revamping those pages to match these. It sounds like something of an ongoing project to me.[/quote]
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"Giving back" page is a good idea.
Why not putting same link and description in temp Dev? Giving back is usefull for Dev and Doc isn't it?
Yes Hervé done a great job, and i don't want to erase his contribution. I think i'll try a first translation of his FAQ with babelfish, and correct it later.
[edit]Ok, now you may have an idea of the FAQ, i just translate question off french FAQ in temp doc (babelfish translation Errrk!)
Admnistration FAQ translation done. Please correct my spelling! :pint:
http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php/AdministrationFAQ
[/edit]
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Very nice! I'll try to go through and "Englishify" it today (what a word ;-)
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Please do! Because, according to me, it is too frenchify :roll:
I'll translate others faq another day.
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Another FAQ translated :
http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php/InstallationFAQ
[edit]
and http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php/SecurityFAQ
[/edit]
Warning! Frog spelling inside! 8-)
Please, RonM "englishify" it!
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OK, I got to a fairly good place with the Admin FAQ englishification. Sorry it took so long; it was more work than I thought ;-)
If anyone would like to go over them and edit or feedback for clarity or accuracy, etc. it would be appreciated.
http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php?pagename=AdministrationFAQ
I'll start to Englishify the next one tomorrow. These FAQs have a lot of great material - those folks who have been discussing "newbie" questions in the forum might just want to pitch in. "RTFFs" is an easy answer to an oft-repeated question ;-)
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RonM,
If you, or anyone else, have any problem about undertanding my gobledigook english, ask me, i'll try to translate it by myself, not with altavista.
It's a hard work too, to understand altavista english :lol: .
I translated with altavista, because, I was thiking that all this stuff was very important, and must be quickly translated. But quick, dont seems good :roll: .
[edit]
And the last FAQ is translated: http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php/DysfunctionsFAQ
[/edit]
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Hi,
I finished to translate Temp Doc and Temp Dev pages to French.
So i think these pages aren't to be "temp" anymore, are there?
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Ron, Muzo, Ian,
The new work you are doing in the wiki is fabulous! Thanks!
We should seriously contemplate rebuilding the wiki homepage to reflect a more specific table of contents. I would like to see the main menu links for Development, and Contribs disappear and just leave Documentation . Then from the Documentation link, there will be a page that discusses, FAQs, Development, etc.
The remaining Download link would go to the wiki page where we have downloads and contribs and links.
What say you guys?
-jeff
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Hello Jeff,
Why not, tell us what we can do.
But now Documentation and Developement pages are cleaner, and easier to read. Some "chapter" are in both pages (like "manuals").
Perhaps, we can put a linl from Documentation to Developpement.So developement page became a chapter from Documentation.
Ron, Ian, What do you think?
/Muzo
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Hi Muzo - I think the altavista plus rewrite (plus doublecheck) method works pretty well. It's not a problem, it's funny: One can thus easily, the words English, the order French in, see you are talking about just what ;-) English translated into Altavista French is no doubt just as funny/clumsy.
I do have a question about the last entry in the security FAQ:
* #[Windows 9x and passwords security. What can I do?|win9x]
When a user log from a Windows 9x computer , his password is saved locally in a file named "XXXX.pwl" (XXXX being the name of the user). That represents a serious security risk, taking in account low level of encryption of these files which it is easy to break. What can I make? %%%
Yes, makerd passwords can disabled. %%%
The goal of PWL files is to keep in cache passwords. For example, when you acces with a resource requiring a password, such as a Internet connection, it is asked to you whether you want "to record" the password. If you choose to record the password, it is then put in cache with a resource identifier in PWL file, so that the user does not have to provide the password any more in the future. In spite of the interest that represents, it acts of an important risk on the security level. These passwords can easily be found by a badly disposed person, who can then use the captured passwords to compromise your network security. %%%
For more information: [Microsoft|www.microsoft.com]
AFAIK, the only effective remedy is to upgrade from W9x, and it's not SME's problem. Am I missing something?
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Hi Jeff - IMO, we can definitely change the pages around if we want, and now is a great time to do it, since we're working on them anyway.
I do like to have a global vision, understood by all, so we're not working at cross-purposes. We had pictured the user of the documentation page as basically a contribs.org member (registered or potentially so); a SME-Server user/Admin (of any experience level), who might want to:
1) Learn about SME basics (Basic)
2) install SME
3) find an answer to a question (general - Manual; specific - FAQ)
4) Learn about the site (wiki)
5) install a contrib
6) find help
7) contribute something
I was already thinking that this was a bit too much scope for one page. Could we maybe:
1) Learn about SME
2) Installation Instructions
3) Documentation >>>>>>>>>> Link to (new) doc page
4) Add functions >>>>>>>>>> Link to (reworked) Contribs page (install a contrib)
5) Find Help
6) Giving Back >>>>>>>>>>>> Link to Giving back page >>>>>>>>>>>>> Participate in Forums
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Add Howtos or weblinks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wiki info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Volunteer for project
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Announce contrib
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Development pages
7) About Contribs.org
Something like this, not necessarily exactly, but make it basically a nav or sitemap type of page. The question of what links to have in the nav bar is really a separate issue. Any feedback?
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I can see that currently there are a lot of sections in the front page navigation bar. If the front page is changed to a pure html page as discussed a while ago then there should be far fewer sections linked from the front page.
It does make some sense to move the contribs to the download page, but when the download page is re-worked it may be best to ensure that links to HowToClassification, & the Web-links only involve one more click.
The development page could stay as it is but be linked from the new Doc & Giving back pages.
Regarding Ron's post, is the re-worked Controbs page a merge of the current page + downloads page or something else?
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Hi Muzo - I think the altavista plus rewrite (plus doublecheck) method works pretty well. It's not a problem, it's funny: One can thus easily, the words English, the order French in, see you are talking about just what ;-) English translated into Altavista French is no doubt just as funny/clumsy.
Oh funniest thing, if you want really laugh, copy french faq, and paste it in babelfish. You can't understand anything! :hammer:
AFAIK, the only effective remedy is to upgrade from W9x, and it's not SME's problem. Am I missing something?
No, i think it was a warning about using win98 in a network. And yes the best way to preserve security is to upgrade :)
(AFAIK?? what does it means?)
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Juste a question, are we talking about refunding (rewriting) doc and dev pages or about refunding contribs website?
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Hi guys, back from vacation :-)
I finally got the last englishification done. I think they all need one more pass through, which I'll do in a couple weeks if no one beats me to it. I renamed the Dysfunctions FAQ to Troubleshooting FAQ - Disfunctions is not really wrong, but it sounds funny in english.
Muzo - I think we're talking about rewriting the the doc and dev pages. Ian, I believe, was referring to a discussion we had a few months ago about creating a regular web 'front end' for contribs.org. I got as far as creating a proposed framework for it, using the suggestions we all came up with, at http://wiki.contribs.org/docs/rmcnew/prop_cweb/ but the whole thing has been on the back burner ever since, as we have had more important things to do.
AFAIK = email shorthand for As Far As I Know
So, anyway, our detour into the FAQs is over for now. We have had some suggestions for the doc/dev/contribute pages - let's hammer out the structure - what pages link to what pages, etc., and build them! I think we have most of the pieces ready now :-)
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Hi Ron,
Doh! Troubleshooting! It was the name i was searching! Thanks Ron!
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Hi guys, back from vacation :-)
And I'm just off. I wait in anticipation for what I'll find in mid-September.
I think that it is progressing well
Ian
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...
So, anyway, our detour into the FAQs is over for now. We have had some suggestions for the doc/dev/contribute pages - let's hammer out the structure - what pages link to what pages, etc., and build them! I think we have most of the pieces ready now :-)
I have finished converting the Manual to XHTML and sent the files to RequestedDeletion on 12 August. There have been a few changes since then that I sent on the 22nd. The manual is available on-line at http://www.mabit.net/sme/
The complete package of files, including images, can be down loaded in either zip or rar format.
http://www.mabit.net/sme/sme-manual.zip (4.9 MB)
http://www.mabit.net/sme/sme-manual.rar (4.8 MB)
I also did a fully bookmarked and linked PDF version. It is not perfect but is a good start. I haven't had the time to modify a second set of HTML files to create a perfect PDF yet but will get around to that soon.
http://www.mabit.net/sme/sme-manual.pdf (2.9 MB)
Hope this helps with the documentation pages.
BTW what happened to the Doc Team mailing list?
Bob
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BTW what happened to the Doc Team mailing list?
Bob
The last message I received was 27th June.
I sent a mesage on 11th July but no replies.
I don't know if there is a technical issue, or if it has just fallen out of use.
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There appears to be a technical issue :<
I will get on it in the next day or so and we'll bring the list back up.
-jeff
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Hello all,
So everybody's back from vacations?
Ok, so what did we do now with the new Developpement and Documentation pages?
Are there contribs.org approuved? :pint:
Did someone put them online?
Must we change something?
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I sense kind of coordination problem. Maybe we can work together on one road. At the moment everyone is building his/her own road.
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Hi Muzo - Let's see what comes out of this latest call for volunteers... if the forthcoming doc team shares the vision for the documentation pages, we've got most of the pieces all ready to go :-)
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OK, we'll see ... :hammer:
I was afraid that i wasted times in doing this.
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Oh, no. That was a nice job. I've often wondered if something like this would work (if two 'half translators' could add up to one translator, etc. :-). I think they can, and I'm sure the results will end up being useful somehow. Maybe we can do it again, sometime. Thanks for suggesting it!
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:-D
Yeah!! Greet job you did! Understanding my nonsense english! How many headache did you have?
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No headaches - it was pretty easy. Wait 'till I try to translate a page into French!