Koozali.org: home of the SME Server
Legacy Forums => General Discussion (Legacy) => Topic started by: MarsWalker on May 11, 2005, 05:58:36 PM
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Hi,
I just found the SME Server branded. :-o
http://www.kirux.net/images/stories/kuadra-features.pdf.
Just my $0.2.
MarsWalker - Very Newbie (almost unborned) Linux User.
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Hi,
I just found the SME Server branded. :-o
http://www.kirux.net/images/stories/kuadra-features.pdf.
Just my $0.2.
MarsWalker - Very Newbie (almost unborned) Linux User.
Hi All,
I just had a look at the pdf, and some of the screenshots look alot like the contribs SME server.
well that is my 2 cents worth too
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Hi there,
This, from the looks of things, does not hide the fact that it is indeed SME Server but a rather heavily customised version included as a whole package along with hardware.
The fact that they have copyrighted the server manager is a bit over the top in my opinion.
What do others think?
Arthur
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The fact that they have copyrighted the server manager is a bit over the top in my opinion.
Not just over the top, but in fact illegal.
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I thought so but wasn't sure so didn't want to say outright.
Out of curiosity, what course of action can be taken against these people to enforce your own copyrights?
Arthur
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Arthur,
This is sad. I just gave it a careful look and the guy hs done extensive work to improve the the functionality. But he is not sharing:
* SATA Drives
* Enhanced Monitoring (graphs)
* CRM System
* Instant Messaging
* Etc...
Two things torqe me.
1. They have removed the copyright notices.
No Redhat, no Mitel, nothing.
2. They've done some good work enhancing functionality,
but they do not share it.
Look... if you want to resell Open Source (GPL) software you can do it... and you can brand it, but you need to follow the laws. Give people credit. What a jerk. :-x
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Hi All
The contact email address for this domain is:
modria_99@yahoo.com
So you can direct you're complaints directly to them.
The sata drive I don't believe is running on stable SME more probably on 6.5RC or SME7 Alpha.x but I could be wrong. Charlie Brady would know how feasible this would be eg recompliled kernal?.
But the main crime here is the removal of copyright notices. As far as I know you can rebrand SME but you must leave any copyright notices and acknowledgments intact and leave the end user a copy of the installed system.
Regards,
Jack.
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whois for domain-kirux.net:
Kirux Technology Solutions Inc.
Lonnie Johnson
18484 Preston Rd
Dallas, TX 75252
US
Phone: +1.4698280616
Fax..: +1.9728019534
Email: Info@kirux.net
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I have just posted on the 'problems forum' over there asking whether his product is GPL software:
http://www.kirux.net/index.php?option=com_simpleboard&Itemid=57&func=view&id=3&catid=4
The text is reproduced below 'in case something happens to break the link':
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Is the Kuadra SME Server GPL software? - 2005/05/16 19:52
Hi there,
There has been much discussion about the Kuadra SME Server over at http://www.contribs.org
The consensus seems to be that you have broken the terms of the GPL by removing copyright notices and by failing to publish the source code for the changes you have made.
Is this true, and if so, what are you going to do about it?
There have been many companies that have chosen to break the GPL and then forced to settle and comply by the legal action taken by http://www.gpl-violations.org and others.
It does sound to many of us from contribs (although I don't pretend to be here on their behalf) that many of the improvements you have made would greatly benefit the community release of SME Server - and under the GPL, surely these need to be published back to the community as sourcecode?
I'm sure that it has not been your intention to break the terms of the GPL and put yourself in the legal firing line and feel that there is an opportunity here for you to turn this situation around to the benefit of all.
Perhaps you would care to comment on these matters, either publicly here or in the general discussion forum over at http://www.contribs.org
Regards
David Hardy.
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Will I get a worthwhile response?
David.
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David,
I hope you get a response. Your tone was reasonable.
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You misunderstand the GPL. He is only required to provide source to those whom he provides his modified version of the software. If you do not enter into an agreement with him whereby you obtain his system with his mods, then he is under no obligation to provide source to you.
Stripping legitimate copyrights and claiming his own copyright for code he did not write, now that is indeed illegal.
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Hi folks,
I'm new and am enjoying sme server as a learning tool.
While I was researching a linux email server solution I
found these folks.
http://www.linuxon.com
It appears to me that they too are selling sme server repackaged.
Travisty..
ontargetbill
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I guess,
IANAL - I'm just trying to engage the guy in debate and see what shakes out, without using the blunt tactic of grabbing him by the nuts first (to be sure I get his attention)
Who knows, he may reply with a good reason why there are no copyrights attributed to Mitel and elsewhere in 'his' stuff and not be interested in being part of this community - he's more likely to be interested in us if we are approachable than if we yell and point excitedly.
Besides, the only other comment in his forums was a 'spoiler' pointing back here.
But, getting back to the point, does he have to release his GPL source to the public? I'm not sure I agree with you having read this:
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLRequireSourcePostedPublic
But if you release the modified version to the public in some way, the GPL requires you to make the modified source code available to the program's users, under the GPL.
I think its a little ambiguous either way, I still find myself erring on the side of, yes I think he does rather than no, only to the people who bought it from him.
As before, IANAL, and the copyright issue does seem altogether more clear cut .... I'm interested in seeing whether he replies and how he views his position re the GPL and copyrights.
As for the Linuxon guys, I don't know - they seem to have done less customisation, although the copyrights seemed not to be visible in the screen shots (although the GPL was).
Regards
David.
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If you do not enter into an agreement with him whereby you obtain his system with his mods, then he is under no obligation to provide source to you.
I dont think so. Have a look at:
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLRequireSourcePostedPublic
...Selling it surely constitutes "release the modified version to the public in some way".
I emailed the company as well and suggested the developer contribute to SME rather than their own version. Illegal copyright removal aside, it looks like they've integrated some good features.
I'm sure Mitel will take care of the legal issues, since they are the copyright holder, it is solely their right to make it an issue:
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#WhoHasThePower
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If you do not enter into an agreement with him whereby you obtain his system with his mods, then he is under no obligation to provide source to you.
I dont think so. Have a look at:
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLRequireSourcePostedPublic
...Selling it surely constitutes "release the modified version to the public in some way".
Yeah, I've been through all of this, multiple times. IANAL either, but I do work with several very good ones who do nothing but deal with these issues. When you deal with Linux servers in the tens of thousands, you have to have a good legal team that is well versed in the GPL.
The point is, he's not making his modifications publically available. They are not posted for download by anyone and everyone. Rather, he is offering them for sale (which the GPL allows.) As the GPL requires only that you offer to make source available to those to whom you make your modifications available, then it is only his paying customers to whom he has an obligation.
He might not even be in trouble on the copyright issue, provided the source copyrights remain in place. He cannot claim a copyright on the original work, but he can certainly claim a copyright on his own modifications. On that question even the attorneys I know are divided at first glance.
Anyway, if he (whomever "he" is, probably someone reading this <grin>) declines to participate here and the people here think his work is good enough to use, then all you have to do is buy a system, request the source, and work the mods back into the SME Server distro. Perfectly legal.
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Kirux Kuadra ES Community Edition. Please follow the link.
http://www.kirux.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=102
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Kirux Kuadra ES Community Edition. Please follow the link.
http://www.kirux.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=102
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Ok guys what is next. How I can help. Greg Swallow: Thank you for your email.
Moses Odria
modria@kirux.net
You're welcome. I'm sorry you didn't get a reply before. I'm not sure who you sent your email to, but Contribs.org staff is not in charge of development. There are renewed efforts now in developing SME but discussion is on Sourceforge - please join the mailing list here and re-post your suggestions or intended contributions: http://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=96750 - You can download the latest alpha versions of SME7 (which is based on Centos 3.4) here: http://ftp.nluug.nl/os/Linux/distr/e-smith/devel/isos/ (there are other mirrors too).
Charlie Brady is the one building the ISO's and there are handful of other developers contributing.
I can't speak for all, but personally I will trust that it was your intention to legally modify/sell your version of SME.
And I do hope you will join the development of SME7 and discuss the inclusion of your suggested additions into the base distribution. That can only be good for both products. Welcome!
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I think we would all welcome additional input to any of the three (6.01+ , 6.5 and 7) forward directions on SME
Is the Kuadra SME Server a Contribs 6/6.5 base with tweaks or an SME7 base?
Is it using the templating system?
And thanks for coming to talk to us!
Regards
David.
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Kirux Kuadra ES Community Edition. Please follow the link.
http://www.kirux.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=102
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The point is, he's not making his modifications publically available. They are not posted for download by anyone and everyone. Rather, he is offering them for sale (which the GPL allows.) As the GPL requires only that you offer to make source available to those to whom you make your modifications available, then it is only his paying customers to whom he has an obligation.
No, that's not accurate. He has to *actually* provide the source to his customers, or he has to offer it to the customers, as well as offer it to "any third party".
Any of his customers can post the source publicly or distribute it in any other way, including give it to a third party.
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The Kuadra uses kernel 2.6.10 (with updated kernel requirements), cyrus imap server, postfix mta, samba 3, samba vscan (virus detection on ibays), amavis-new, spamassasin, squid, squid-guard, openvpn, horde 3, mambo cms, etc. Most packages compiled from source.
Moses, you may have found already that SME7 includes Samba 3, Horde 3 and Spamassasin.
From what I've quickly read amavis-new can be integrated with clamd (which is what is in sme7), and improves the speed of virus scanning. So if you'd like to help with SME7, that may be a contribution you could offer to develop.
There is already an option I think in the latest SME7 Alphas to scan ibays, I don't think its samba-vscan, but likely accomplishes the same thing.
Regarding cyrus/postfix vs dovecot/qmail - I think it would take a lot of convincing for the developers to change that - they've just spent quite a bit of time better integrating qmail and improving its features. You may like what you see in SME7.
I am not really familiar with ACL - There was some discussion here a while ago about using Cyrus - http://forums.contribs.org/index.php?topic=25261.0. For some it was an issue of needing shared mail folders. There is a feature in dovecot that is currently unused in SME I think, but it might be what you are looking for: http://dovecot.org/pipermail/dovecot/2003-October/002497.html - I bet that could be integrated somehow in the server-manager of SME7
There is also an effort to create an Open-xchange add-on for SME7 - http://forums.contribs.org/index.php?topic=26873.0
Regarding shared calendars - the Horde application Kronolith now does that - I am planning on packaging that into an rpm for SME7 soon.
Openvpn would also make an interesting addition to SME7 - There is a howto for openvpn on 6.x which you have likely seen:
http://sme.swerts-knudsen.com/howtos/howto_30.htm
- but it is not neatly integrated or packaged in an rpm.
Anyways, we're getting a bit off-topic for this thread - hope to see you on the Sourceforge mailing list and we can discuss any of this more.
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Kirux Kuadra ES Community Edition. Please follow the link.
http://www.kirux.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=102
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I think at this time, may be the community could suggest some need to have packages to be included as the base system for the version 7.
I have my own opinion which is reflected in the Kuadra Server, but additional input to add or remove functionality would be great.
Hi there Moses!
I think your questions are best discussed on the Sourceforge list. IMO web forums really suck for discussion. See you on the sourceforge list!
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I was just going to say the same thing - to post, just send an email to smeserver-developer@lists.sourceforge.net :-)
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Although I have been a simple consumer of the site,
I have been installing several sme servers and certainly would like to have postfix instead of qmail.
I am not a developer, so I can´t force the opinion of the sme dev team. :(
Anyway I would like to follow this discussion in sourceforge, can somebody post the Url for subscription?
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Kirux Kuadra ES Community Edition. Please follow the link.
http://www.kirux.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=102
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Your opinions and suggestions are more than Welcome
As are yours, Moses. Unfortunately my reply mail to you bounced ('User unknown in local recipient table'). Please check your mail log files, and correct the problem. Talk to you soon.
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Kirux Kuadra ES Community Edition. Please follow the link.
http://www.kirux.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=102
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We had a little storm here in Texas and we lose power (extremely rare) for a while. It is normal now.
I know that Texas is an "unusual" place, but storms and lost power will not cause mail to bounce. You have (or had) a configuration error. Please check your mail logs.
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I am going to make a little history. A few months ago I send few messages to contribs.org offering my expertise to enhance the SME Server.
I don't know where you sent your offer, but it did not come to me. I'd be absolutely delighted to work with you to enhance the SME Server.
At that time I only request some documentation, the Mitel site and the contribs.org only offer some vague information about how the system works.
If you'd asked any of your questions on the devinfo list (which was established nearly six years ago for exactly such questions) then I would have tried to help you with your understanding.
In my humble opinion SME should be a business server with all the modern tools available in the Open Source community.
The main thing we need to achieve that is to have a sufficient number of developers working together towards that aim.
We need to keep in my that the SME Server or any other Linux Server are in competition with the Windows Servers, and we need to provide quality and easy to handle tools to entice users to migrate to Linux. In the end everybody will benefit.
Indeed. Each of us working alone, however, has no chance of making any significant dent in Microsoft's dominant position. We don't need lots of little vendors with "their" SME Server distribution, each with their own advantages and flaws, we need one polished and constantly improving offering.
First:
All the copyrights are intact. I did not remove any copyrights from no one.
The server manager screenshots contained in user-kuadra-features.pdf show "Copyright Kirux Technology Solutions, inc", where my Mitel SME server shows a Mitel Copyright assertion. I presume that that is what people are talking about.
Second:
I provide all the source code with my modifications to kirux customers. As obligated by the GPL license.
Third:
Under GPL Licence I am not obligated to publish all my work to the general public, only to the recipients of the work.
Although you correctly quote the *minimum* requirements of the GPL, it's worth noting that none of the software components which have allowed you to build your server appliance have been distributed under those conditions. The source code to all of them is freely published for all to use. Let's just list a tiny subset of those components:
- the linux kernel
- GNU libraries and utilities
- the RedHat installer anaconda
- the Apache web server
- perl
- samba
- postfix
- cyrus-imap
- clamav
- php
- imp, horde, turba
- mambo
- CM Simple
- Sugar CRM
- Mitel SME Server
What would you be offering your customers if all of these projects were hidden from public view?
If you go to the kirux site it is a FREE Software section for Windows users. That shows my willingness to contribute to the community.
I don't see any contributions from you there. All I see are you redistributing the work of others.
Ok guys what is next. How I can help. Greg Swallow: Thank you for your email.
The next step is for you to actively participate with the developers on the sourceforge mailing list.
You've raised some questions here as to what you feel are essential changes, e.g. replace qmail with postfix. Let's discuss the pros and cons of making that change.
Share your code with us, as we have shared our code with you. Allow others to improve your work, as you have improved on the work of others.
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I have just posted on the 'problems forum' over there asking whether his product is GPL software:
http://www.kirux.net/index.php?option=com_simpleboard&Itemid=57&func=view&id=3&catid=4
I cannot register to that forum...
Did they reply?
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The forums were open to all over there when I posted.
I think gregswallow emailed kiruxadmin on the 16th May which probably prompted him (kiruxadmin) to look at the forums on his site and review the ease with which anonymous posts could be made - the post above mine was a 'yah boo hiss get it for free somewhere else' spoiler type of thing.
I would imagine that access to the forums there is only open to those that register direct with the admin of that site.
What were you going to say that you can't say here?
David.
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What were you going to say that you can't say here?
David.
I have nothing to say...
I'd like to see their response.
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Hey guys, check this out..
Kirux has registered SME server as his own project on freshmeat.net. That is not the worst part, the worst part is the license he registered it under: [License] Other/Proprietary License
Haw can he take GPL product and register it under proprietary license? Check it out..
http://freshmeat.net/projects/kuadrasmeserver/
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I think his logo (http://kirux.net/images/stories/serverpro.png ) says it all ... familiar?
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I have been following this thread since it started and I think that we are beginning to lose sight of what is important for SME Server.
I think we would all agree that Kiruxadmin has made some good improvements to an already very stable and very robust product (I don't know what is in the pipeline for v7.0 as have not tried it yet) and that the next logical step would be for him to get actively involved in the further development of SME server as Charlie mentioned above.
I also agree with Charlie that the way forward is not to develop lots of tiny distros that all have their pros and cons but to combine these into a larger distro with almost none of those cons, something that will really have an impact on the IT market.
I think that one of the greatest benefits of Linux is the diversity of distros and configurations that are out there but I also think that this may ultimately be it's downfall or at least be a major factor in holding it back from the general public, as there are so many people forking off into their own version of Linux.
It all begs me to ask the question though, how many others have followed the same route as Kiruxadmin and improved on SME server that we do not have onboard?
These are just my opinions and are not in any way intended as a direct attack at anyone here. Long live SME :-D
Arthur
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Haw can he take GPL product and register it under proprietary license?
Quite simply, he can't. The only person who can set license conditions for software is the copyright holder of the software.
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I think we would all agree that Kiruxadmin has made some good improvements to an already very stable and very robust product
Good post Arthur. Stability is I think why we all love SME. Uptime's of over a year are not uncommon. The thing here is no one but Moses and his customers know how stable his "improvements" are. We tried to get him to discuss changes with the developers, but I guess he is not interested. That's fine, but I wouldn't spend money to be a beta tester of his product, and I doubt many people would.
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Moses, you may think combining the latest kernel with this and that provides stability, but I don't. That's why Redhat doesn't market Fedora Core 4 for servers. Around 360 out of 400MB of SME7 comes from Centos 4.1 (Redhat Enterprise Linux 4.1). Redhat has far more people working on stability than you do (and will provide bug fixes until 2012 I believe) and the SME community is over 6000 users with who knows how many servers out there.
Really, you didn't try very hard if you actually wanted to contribute to SME, you offered a couple ideas, but there are plenty of those. If you think cyrus and postfix are better, then share your srpms for us to try. You have taken everone else's code (and purported it to be yours), but wont share your own. All I can see that you have offered is marketing hype about your product, and this website is not the place for that.
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I am willing to contribute only to create a better product.
Moses,
I have a very simple request - share your GPL derived code. This is code which I, and many others, have written.
Share so we can see, incorporate, and build a better server for all. Nothing more is asked of you.
If your code is an improvement, it's quite likely to be included as development moves forward.
Thanks,
Gordon
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This topic is pretty interesting.
I think one of the flaws of the GPL license is that there is no way really to enforce it.
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OK I am starting to lose the thread of what we are trying to achive here?
My understanding of the GPL licence is that you have to make available to the comunity the source for the GPL software along with any modifications to the GPL code. I don't remember anything about making additional programmes etc available, otherwise people like oracle would need to GPL any software that runs on linux.
Assuming that Moses allows people access to any modifications/ bugfixes within the code supplied within SME Server then that is all he has to do. although if the code os based on alternative versions of things like qmail then the modifications are going to be pointless.
Adding additional modules as far as I can tell would not conflict with the terms of the GPL, nor would they have to be released under the same licence as long as the GPL parts are.
There does however seem to be both an issue with the copyright notices and the crediting of both mitel and contribs.org. Come on moses if you product is what everyone wants why not post a link to contribs.org and give Credit where it's due man, It's bad PR to be seen to be ripping of the OS community even if thats not your intention appearance is everything.
With regards to the direction of this project it seems to me that there are three diferent types of server being developed within one product. This system is trying to be both a internet facing web/main server, a work group server and a firewall. These three functions require very different resources and priorities, maybe there needs to be a decision what type of server you are trying to create or maybe you need two or three versions.
This all reminds me of Smoothwall and the problems with IPCorp amoung others. Smoothwalls system was simular to this one, but that didn't stop Smoothwall themselves producing a both a free and a commercial extended version of the product. If fact that's the business model I'm hoping to use for a system I'm developing.
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I think one of the flaws of the GPL license is that there is no way really to enforce it.
It's as enforecable as any other license.
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Hi
I’ve been following these posts on the subject of O.S., thievery, these are my thoughts and I apologize in advance if I offend anyone with my choice of words.
My thoughts are as follows. Is there any reason that a class action suit could not be brought against the people/companies that blatantly use O.S., purport it as their own, and sell it? It would seem to me that if there was a profit from this that the copy write holder could bring suit against those parties, and then contribute the funds recovered to the O.S community to pay for bandwidth and other expenses.
The majority of Contribs members seem to be for the betterment of the end product, to me in my simple mind seems to be for the betterment of the majority. Perhaps those that use the O.S. in their development of commercial programs would contribute voluntarily a percentage of the profit say 15% back to the community that has voluntarily provided the means for them to produce a product that is being sold for profit.
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I don’t believe that I used the word “Clone” in my statement nor was any mention made of the Kirux distribution Kuadra Enterprise Server in my post. I am sorry that it was felt that I was pointing a finger so to speak at your product. I have this to say.
However in your last post you did mention and I quote “Also, the Mitel copyrights and some other branding, that some people are mentioned were removed by the development team with the release 6.5 in order to make the SME generic.”
That really confuses me because if the Kirux distribution Kuadra Enterprise Server was never remotely connected with SME then why would you have to remove anything in the 1st place?
My question is would your product even exist if it were not for O.S. and the folks that have worked so hard to have developed the SME platform?
I do not plan on adding to this particular post again as I do not wish to have a case of alligator mouth and hummingbird butt.
I hope that everyone can reach a satisfactory solution to the issue and go on with the development of the SME server which has helped so many people and non profits that cannot afford to buy hardware no mater how cheap or have decided to recycle old machines and give them new purpose.
Everyone have a blessed day and remember “Keep your words soft and sweet as you may have to eat them later.”
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I believe that the administrator of Contribs will tell me when I have made such an error. :-D I also believe that I live in the U.S.A and I can state my thoughts as long as I do no harm. I do not wish to get into a arguement over something that was never said.
I wish you well, and hope that you get this resolved.
Good luck and have a wonderful blessed day.
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Please stop the accusations. The Kirux distribution Kuadra Enterprise Server is NOT a clone of the SME Server.
It is, however, a derivative work, as defined by copyright law. You may only distribute such derivative work in compliance with the license you have been granted.
In the case of the GPL, this means at least that you must provide source code to your customers, who may then share it freely. Most GPL developers short circuit this process, and demonstrate their good faith, by making source code publicly available.
Also, the Mitel copyrights and some other branding, that some people are mentioned were removed by the development team with the release 6.5 in order to make the SME generic.
Have you sought advice about the legality of removing or altering copyright notices on code to which you do not hold the copyright? It's certainly extremely impolite, and I expect it is also illegal.
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The Kirux Kuadra ES is an independent distribution with its own features and capabilities.
Blah blah blah. We don't care Moses. Go advertise your commercial product elsewhere. I think you've been asked a few times to stop that. If you want to write up how your product is different form SME server, do it on your own website.
I'm sure you are concerned with this thread because if you search for kirux server on google, this thread comes up #5 & #6. Well, too bad. You'll have to live with the bad publicity you're getting here - it is your own doing.
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ALL the copyrights of the software included in the Kirux Kuadra ES distribution are intact. Kirux Technology Solutions are in full compliance with ALL the licenses of the sofware included in the distribution.
Well, this is not strictly true. If you take a look at page 8 of you "user-kuadra-features.pdf" document, you'll find that this is indeed the SME server panel but customised to suit your needs. I do not see any reference to Mitel, SME or contribs on that screenshot yet you say copyrights are intact?
This thread is getting tiresome now as I'm sure many of you will agree. Moses, all that is being asked of you is that you join in the development of SME or at least make the code that you've developed available to them.
It is very apparent that you did not develop this product from the ground up and it's an expansion and redevelopment of the SME server provided here at Contribs. You can dress it up how you like by changing the installer, mail server and other bits but without the original SME Server you would indeed not have a product at all short of actually building a new one.
Please, I point no fingers and please excuse my rants but all I see here is a separated Linux community and this is, in my opinion, the main weakness of Linux as has been mentioned on this thread before. You display talent in the customisation of SME server and the guys here at Contribs are doing great work. Join together to create something strong enough to rival commercial solutions out there.
Arthur
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I think one of the flaws of the GPL license is that there is no way really to enforce it.
It's as enforecable as any other license.
Commercial license, well, lawsuits and lawsuits.
GPL license, well, forums ?
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ALL the copyrights of the software included in the Kirux Kuadra ES distribution are intact. Kirux Technology Solutions are in full compliance with ALL the licenses of the sofware included in the distribution.
Hmm....I believe that you did not build the software from ground up, did you ?
One of the most obvious, is the ClamAV antivirus module, It is indeed open source. http://www.clamav.net/
So is Postfix MTA. http://www.postfix.org/
So is Amavis New. http://www.ijs.si/software/amavisd/
So is SpamAssassin. http://spamassassin.apache.org/
So is Squid. http://www.squid-cache.org/ and SquidGuard Content Filter. http://www.squidguard.org/copyright/
So is Apache. http://www.apache.org/licenses/
So is MySQL. http://www.mysql.com/
So is the Linux Kernel.
No offense, but how is Kirux ES in full compliance with ALL the licenses ?
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Please stop the accusations. The Kirux distribution Kuadra Enterprise Server is NOT a clone of the SME Server. A clone is an exact copy. The Kuadra ES may share the same look and feel but all the major components are completely different.
Did you code all the major components yourself or are they works or reworks of others ?
The Kuadra ES uses different Installer, Operating System, Mail Server, Mail MTA, Virus Scanner among other major components that are not found in any SME Server version.
Assuming that what you are saying is true, then is the different Installer, Operating System, Mail Server, Mail MTA, Virus Scanner among other major components that are not found in any SME Server version all writen completely by you or your staff or are they works/reworks of others ?
The Kuadra ES uses different directory structure and is NOT compatible with any version of the SME Server.We use some GPL contribs, that we modified to suit our need and we keep their copyrigth notices.
Some or most ?
If you understood the GPL License, it just dont mean "keeping their copyright notices"....if it was that way, then all GPL code could easily be made commerical.
Seriously, Moses, I really think that you should reconsider your stance on this. I am no expert on GPL licenses and such, perhaps someone with more experience could enlighten us on GPL and it's oddities.
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I have been watching this thread since it's start. We can all do something about this and I will tell you how.
As soon as his website is back up, go there and look for as many GPL and/or copyright violations etc. that you can find.
I have found several just in his pdf flier that he is always posting as some of it's content was taken from Mitel's copyrighted manual. He also uses the copyrighted names "i-bay" and "information bay", I'm sure Mitel would be quite interested in this.
Next thing is to email the respective companies/organizations and point out the possible violations and let him fight it over with them. There are a few big (and some comercial) ones out there like Mitel, KDE, iFax/hylafax, etc that will be interested in what they discover.
Quit argueing with him about it. He thinks he is in the right and we can't change him. Let the big boys tell him where the bear does his business.
We embrace our open source community and try to protect the GPL ourselves but sometimes we just have to call in the heavy weights (they have lawyers too).
JMHO.
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I have been watching this thread since it's start. We can all do something about this and I will tell you how.
As soon as his website is back up, go there and look for as many GPL and/or copyright violations etc. that you can find.
JMHO.
Perhaps the reason his website is down is to make time for him to remove all GPL/Open Source references in the Kirux ES ? Just a guess. Let's wait and see.
It was online yesterday when I was checking out the Features of his Kirux ES and Firewall.
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Just a newbie comment, but I'll go ahead anyway:
I think Moses made some questionable decisions regarding licensing and legalities, but recognize he's going to defend his time and money investment in his business both from competitors and from other threats.
Direct application of a stick will probably only involve loss of time and/or money all around. Laying out the option of carrots for discussion again shouldn't hurt (however i haven't followed the off-board discussion(s), so maybe it will be somewhat painful?)
Suggestions of some things for both sides:
1) Restoration of original SME/Mitel on-screen copyrights, alongside Kirux copyrights for new/significantly updated code. This would reduce the copyright display issue in the long term to "no harm/no foul", I would think.
2) Public availability of "minimal" Kirux release that includes all GPL-controlled modules, most "open source license" controlled modules (that require it), and a minimal set of "Kirux copyright" controlled modules (e.g. installer). The source to everything but the "Kirux copyright" controlled modules would be available as well. Alternately, this could be a source-only release, except for the "Kirux copyright" binaries, which would be less work for them.
3) Allowing them some time to clean up any issues they have with code they don't want to release that might be mixed in with code that would perhaps force them to release it. A temporary repreive, if you will.
4) Re-attempting to bring Moses and his folks in on some parts of the SME Server development process, at least in areas that aren't significantly forked. If possible.
Again, Moses & company are presumably concerned about giving away the farm in terms of sales and consulting, and the contribs people's concerns of unfair re-use of their works is important as well.
I think the Kirux folks have the most work to do to build the bridge, but if there's some more effort shown, that might (and should) reduce tempers on the contribs.org side a bit.
-brendan
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....
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brendan:
Excellent Post. You are right. Kirux concern, among others, is to provide a system where resellers, not the community, will benefit from something that they do not put any time, effort or money. These resellers just download the software and provide "support". Or from other resellers that change some logos and start selling it as their own.
Ahem, your comments errrr boogles the mind.......it's the same problem the developers of SME Server is facing.
Open to suggestions ?
You complain thru this forum then.
brendan all your points are very valid. We are currently working to implement some methods that will help the community and protect our efforts, including the formation of a non-profit organization (100% supported by kirux) were the kirux software among others will be available for the community to download.
Excellent. We thank you.
Also, the Mitel copyright screen, everybody is taking about it. Where it is? You can check the link of the contribs Screenshots SME Server Release 6.5:
http://no.longer.valid/xoopsgallery/view_photo.php?xoops_imageid=496&set_albumName=album01&id=users_res800
So now you are admitting that you had used SME Server as your base for your KES ?
Not trying to belittle your work, but give some credit to others, thanks.
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Come on guys just take one look at it and it's a complete rip of SME. why on earth he wouldn't give kudos to SME is beyond me. He even has Mitlel and SME listed as competitors.. lmfao
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I don't know how this guy thinks?! Please see the logo he is using in this page for example:
http://www.kirux.net/index.php?option=com_contact&Itemid=3
What do you think? Yes, it is mambo, mamboserver.com !!
Can somebody just stop this guy?!
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"Somebody"? I don't think that some hypothetical "GPLMan" is going to swoop down and make a smoking crater in Dallas where the Kirux offices used to be.
However, now the folks behind Kirux know that the SME community is aware of the situation. Are there GPL violations or not? I'm not qualified to decide. But if there are, then the Kirux enterprise is rotten at the core and will eventually founder, as you cannot build a strong and healthy software company that does not have clear rights to its intellectual property and whose business plan rests on violation of established software practices and licenses.
So ... if Kirux is in violation of the GPL it will most likely implode at some point as the corner-cutting mounts up. If Kirux is not, or in the future is not because the company changes its path, then the SME community will be enriched by the contribution of Kirux' programming. Either way, the situation will work out without "somebody" intervening.
Incidentally, in the age of Google it doesn't take much for anyone who is considering purchasing a Kirux product to discover this GPL controversy ...
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Errr....so Moses may I know when this community edition of the KES will be available and what features will be cripped ?
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ok, update on the KES "saga".
http://www.kirux.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=102
"We are in the process to release the Community Edition of the Kuadra Enterprise Server. The Kuadra ES Community Edition will be a free download for personal use, but without the support provided by Kirux Technology Solutions Inc or its worldwide network of Resellers. The support, comments or suggestions for the Kuadra ES Community Edition will be provided by its users via forum.
The Kuadra ES Community Edition offers the same functionality of the Kuadra ES supported version, but is restricted to one domain and 25 users. Also, you can freely share this version, but you can not sell it.
We are securing our mirrors sites and we are targeting the release of the Kuadra ES for early August."
how about the source code, moses ? will it be available as well ?
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After reading this stuff, i checked www.kirux.net again. And i was smashed by the number of licence violations, that are happening there.
That guy even offers WHFC for download and names it "KudraES Fax Client Client for Windows". WHFC by Uli Eckhardt ist under GPL. The "Kirux-Man"
a) does not even mention that. He trys to express, that "his" client is freeware, which it is not.
b) does not provide the GPL, as he is supposed to, when distributing that prog
c) does not provide sourcecode.
The GPL (as e.g. Uli Eckhard provides it) is quite clear about that:
1. You may copy and distribute verbatim copies of the Program's
source code as you receive it, in any medium, provided that you
conspicuously and appropriately publish on each copy an appropriate
copyright notice and disclaimer of warranty; keep intact all the
notices that refer to this License and to the absence of any warranty;
and give any other recipients of the Program a copy of this License
along with the Program.
and:
4. You may not copy, modify, sublicense, or distribute the Program
except as expressly provided under this License. Any attempt
otherwise to copy, modify, sublicense or distribute the Program is
void, and will automatically terminate your rights under this License.
However, parties who have received copies, or rights, from you under
this License will not have their licenses terminated so long as such
parties remain in full compliance.
Someone should sue this little company and its owner at once. Uli Eckhard for shure can not afford an manage that from germany. But perhaps the FreeSoftFoundation could and i would contribute 100 EUR for every reasonable effort to do that.
Come on, guys and gals. Anyone knows a foundation, company or starving lawyer willing to do that. I mean, Dallas/Texas is not Malaysia or Shanghai, where copyrights can not be sued!
Or someone should do a little reverse engineering on his stuff and reuse it into SME, if that is somehow allowed by GPL.
Or just sue him to donate all the source code of his evil work back to FSF or Contribs.org.
What that guy does (not once, but dozen times) is pure copyright violation. Just ugly in my opinion.
Sorry for getting impolite here. But i do not like to stay polite with persons, that explicitely violate law and even seem to be proud of it.
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Just an observation .....
I notice that nearly all his products start with a capital 'K'. Now, I wonder what KDE would think of that? ......
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What do you guys think of this SME Server "lookalike" ?
http://www.linuxon.com/panel.htm
Dont seem to be able to find any source code or a "comunity" edition for download?
Ironically, I got this from Kirux's Competitor link.
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Hey guys, check this out..
Kirux has registered SME server as his own project on freshmeat.net. That is not the worst part, the worst part is the license he registered it under: [License] Other/Proprietary License
Haw can he take GPL product and register it under proprietary license? Check it out..
http://freshmeat.net/projects/kuadrasmeserver/
That link does not work anymore as he has changed his project name away from a title that includes "sme" to
http://freshmeat.net/projects/kuadraes/
Same project and description just a different project name and still regestered under a proprietary license.
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What do you guys think of this SME Server "lookalike" ?
http://www.linuxon.com/panel.htm
Dont seem to be able to find any source code or a "comunity" edition for download?
Ironically, I got this from Kirux's Competitor link.
Quote from their site:
With the help of the open source community, Linuxon has designed a simple yet powerful and secure web and mail server,
From the demo server-manager the only change is logo on the header :-)
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From the demo server-manager the only change is logo on the header :-)
Ugly, ugly, ugly - but as long as nobody tries the "jackson-trick" with these folks, which is "blame them, sue them, ruin them" many linux-newbies will even buy that kind of pirate-crap. :-x
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Ok, i would contribute another 100 EUR for every reasonable effort to sue Moses and his Kirux stuff.
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Quote from their site:
With the help of the open source community, Linuxon has designed a simple yet powerful and secure web and mail server,
From the demo server-manager the only change is logo on the header :-)
It would seem that there are even more of such "rip-offs" than most of us expect.
Can they really be stopped at all ?
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That link does not work anymore as he has changed his project name away from a title that includes "sme" to
http://freshmeat.net/projects/kuadraes/
Same project and description just a different project name and still regestered under a proprietary license.
Smart move on his part, he wants to keep all references to the SME Server as far away as possible from KES.
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We are looking into these issues and trying to decide how best to move forward.
Thanks
Garret
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Ok, i would contribute another 100 EUR for every reasonable effort to sue Moses and his Kirux stuff.
Count me in for another 100 EUR.
This is so upsetting considering the amount of time and energy the developers of SME and the Contribs go through, all for no monetary gain.
Geoffrey
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We are looking into these issues and trying to decide how best to move forward.
Thanks
Garret
Hi,
so how is it coming about ?
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It is a very slow process, we are dealing with copy rights here.
But we are moving forward.
Garret
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Ok, thanks.
Was just wondering.
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Also, the Mitel copyrights and some other branding, that some people are mentioned were removed by the development team with the release 6.5 in order to make the SME generic.
As THE developer for 6.5 that you refer to, I have something to say regarding this. First off I did contact members from mitel and ask their permission/opinion on the best way present a generic manager and still give credit where it was due. I also didn't EVER claim that I was the author of it. None of the copyrights in the code were removed. The way they were displayed in the manager footer was the only thing that changed. All of the code that Mitel has written very clearly states at the top of each file that they are the author and copyright holder.
-Shad
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....
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Kurixadmin,
Please check your facts before you post.
1-Mitel themselves released 6.0 (and previous versions) to the public (including source code) and left their Mitel Logo in tact for everyone to see. It was released as a "Unsupported Developer Release" and it was their option to do so. This was the last version that Mitel released.
2-Mitel gave permission to others to continue development and released it's code and it finally rested at contribs.org. Mitel gave permission for the mitel logo to be removed but the copyrights were all left in tact as required. The source code is still available and 6.0.1 was born. 6.0.1 is almost identical to 6.0 and is now branded by contribs.org. This current contribs.org release DOES NOT have the Mitel banner.
3-Shad Lords changed some of the copyright wording but only AFTER consulting with the proper persons and getting permission. The copyrights are still there but just worded differently. He developed 6.5 and released it.
Neither contribs.org or Shad have ever stated anywhere that this entire distribution is copyrighted by them. They give credit where credit is due.
All of these things were done under the GPL (and other licenses) in the true spirit of the GPL and with Mitel's permission.
Your accusations that others are violating Mitels rights are just not true at all. If they were, Mitel would not have allowed contribs.org to continue and this site would not exist. Mitel has plenty of money and would sue everyone involved if they thought there were un-resolved problems.
P.S. You can answer me here. My full name and email address are none of your business.
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....
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Where is the account no? I need to deposit my 100 EUR. :-x
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If documentation is needed for a legitimate reason, I'm absolutely sure it will surface. Your request to see it is far from a legitimate reason.
You should not concern yourself with what others have and concern yourself with what you NEED, your OWN documentation.
Mitel did in fact PUBLICALY announce the "turning over" of the GPL portion of their code in December 2003. They made certain "rules" and contribs.org obliged. Every thing that has happened here at contribs.org is above board. Any "paperwork" involved was between the parties involved. If you want to see it, call Mitel and ask them for it, I'm sure they will tell you where to go as well.
Your attempts at TRYING to find problems with copyrighted material HERE will not net you anything. You must look elsewhere to find that.
I do not post my personal information anywhere for anyone and I will not start posting it here for you, you are not that important so stop asking for it.
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...
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I am no expert in legal matters, but do have some observations to offer.
First - looking at your Kuadra ES Server features, it looks identical to the SME Server that has been produced by Mitel and Contribs.org. The main difference between what has been branded Kuadra and others that use the SME Server appears to be that most users have not changed the Copyright information on the Server Manager home page, as you have done.
Second - You appear to have utilized contributions by the open source comunity, including the ClamAV panel and the Squid Panel. It would follow that if you have made changes to the Core product, that you would make it available to the Open Source comunity. Have you done this? Have you informed the original developer of these products you are using of any changes that may benefit the product or the comunity? I can not speak for the majority of the users here, but when I deploy a SME Server, I don't take any credit for the system, The credit is flowed back to the original developers of the product or the contributions. In fact any SME Server I have deployed, there has been no charge for the software, only the hardware. If the end user expresses an interest in paying for the software, they are pointed to this site and encourouge to donate. Can you say the same? You are charging for a product, that you have rightfully modified, but are not giving back to the developers that created the basis of your product.
But, what if Mitel decide tommorow to sue all the SME users for patent violations or decide to charge a fee for its use? Remember SCO.
Following this logic, what if Red Hat decided to go after every other distrobution that was spawned for their efforts? This would include all the Fedora code as well. These companies have realized that there is value in allowing modifications to their products by others. These companies even benefit, including Mitel. I seriously doubt that Mitel would take this approach. Also, comparing Mitel to SCO is a bit of a reach don't you think?
From my perspective, all the Contribs users and owners are asking is for changed that you have made be flowed back into the community that initially spawned your product.
my 2 cents, for what it is worth,
Darin MacLachlan
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Kirux Kuadra ES Community Edition. Please follow the link.
http://www.kirux.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=102
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Keep in mind that the Kuadra ES is a complete distribution. The Kuadra ES was not designed to be an add on. You can not take portions and installed into existing SME installations. The Kuadra ES is not compatible with any version of the SME, present or future. They do not share most of the mayor components and their directory structure are different. May be the Kuadra ES community edition is the answer. I do not know. Thank you for your comments.
Well there have been some improvement sure...
What is the work done on Kuadra ES based on?
Let me guess: SME?
And you have deleted all developers credit! Even for contribs you have used (ex: proxy pannel)!
What a shame!
Anychange you do on any program, you must display credit for the original author. If you have done too many modifications on the program, ask the author if he is OK for you to remove its name.
PS ask befor removing original copyright :hammer:
It is not GPL it is just logic. ;-)
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Totally different product.
Totally? It is a joke isn't it?
The same is with the Kuadra ES. All the credits and copyrights notices are intact.
According to screenshot of some server-manager pannel you have stollen, credits do not appear!
Keep in mind that the Kuadra ES is a complete distribution. The Kuadra ES was not designed to be an add on. You can not take portions and installed into existing SME installations. The Kuadra ES is not compatible with any version of the SME, present or future. They do not share most of the mayor components and their directory structure are different. May be the Kuadra ES community edition is the answer. I do not know. Thank you for your comments.
"The Kuadra ES Community Edition offers the same functionality of the Kuadra ES supported version, but is restricted to one domain and 25 users."
Pasted from http://www.kirux.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=55&Itemid=103
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The Kuadra SME Server is based on the 6.5 version with custom modifications and updated packages. It uses the templating system.
The Kuadra uses kernel 2.6.10 (with updated kernel requirements), cyrus imap server, postfix mta, samba 3, samba vscan (virus detection on ibays), amavis-new, spamassasin, squid, squid-guard, openvpn, horde 3, mambo cms, etc. Most packages compiled from source.
Moses
The answer to whether the KES is based on SME Server has already been answered by Moses himself. I got this from Page 2 of this thread.
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I want to point that the only copyrights violations are found on the actual SME users and its resellers, because they are using a branded Mitel distribution without any legal document that authorize its user to display Mitel logo, trademark and use the Mitel brand name.
Ok, then Mitel will sue them. Let Mitel deal with these "evil" people.
May be Contribs.org are illegally distributing copyright material. Where is the Mitel permission/authorization allowing contribs.org to distribute the SME server? Even that the banner said Developers Release, it contains the Mitel logo and some resellers are misleading inexperience buyers to believe that they are buying the real Mitel software. Are Mitel upper management aware of the distribution of the SME Server Software with their logo?
These "evil" people will be punished I guess.
Want to help by contributing something ?
Let me elaborate, if you get a copy of Red Hat Enterprise Server and then you sell it or distributed even without monetary gain is an illegal act. You can not sell or distribute copyright material. But if you download the rpms from Red Hat, change the installer, remove all the Red Hat logos and trademarks what do you get? You get Centos, that is legal. If you have the time and some knowledge you also can create your own, legal distribution.
Hmmm.....so where is your KES source code then ? Centos is available to the public, what about yours ?
This forum is clearly intended to tarnish the image of Kirux Technology Solutions the Kuadra ES and myself.
Yes, this forum is created just to tarnish you. Evil. Very evil group.
May be is a group of people that do not like a real SME alternative beyond their control or may be some resellers trying to get free software that they can resell at a handsome profit.
It is the developers of sme server are more pissed at you than others, so I doubt they are after profit.
And if KES is the real SME alternative, then you will be in control, not others. Anyone using the KES will be bound under GPL too.
Also, this forum is a distraction from the real issues, like the SME 6.5 is buggy and unfinished, that the SME 7 is months away from completion. But even if the release of the 6.5 or 7.0 is done tomorrow, those releases will only provide the basic system. The users need to include the needed contribs, then the forums will begin to fill again with questions, where the usual response “The SME do not include that feature, check the installed contribs” or “Before you post, check the manual” - Take the time and check the forums todays and you will find that most of the cases are inexperience users looking for answers to the same problems, over and over.
Wow, where did that come from ? No offense, but that's pretty childish.
Furthermore, as clearly stated in the contrib.org FAQ and the Donations page, contribs.org is a private organization and is not a charitable institution. Means that contribs.org is a for profit entity, taking money in form of donations from the public. Do you know how much donation money is coming, do you know where the donation money is going. I believe that the community must know.
You are part of the community now? Did you donate ?
Do you know who are principals in the contribs.org?, do you know who sign the checks and allocate the money?, do you know how the profits are generated?
Nope and I dont really care. Why should u ? And why are you so interested in the profits of contribs ?
They provide the SME Server freely to the public, and if you don't want, you can don't donate at all.
AGAIN: The Kuadra ES is not a clone of the SME Server, it is a different distribution, with different components, with some GPL software and comply with all the software licenses.
You already stated in an earlier post that the KES is based on SME Server 6.5.
Again, some GPL software ? Nearly all major components are GPL software.
Before someone respond to this posting, perform some research. I know that is going to be some passionated people offended by this posting, the same way that I was offended by other postings in this forum.
An advice to SME users, get legal counsel about using Mitel logos and trademarks without written permission. Yo may be liable of copyright violation.
If you are going to post a reply, do not hide, sign the reply with your real name and include your email.
How about this, if you, Moses, want to clear your name, do not hide the source code, make the source code of the KES available to the public and let them decide whether you are violated any copyrights and see whether KES is a completely different distribution than SME Server.
Thanks for reading.
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Kuadra ES Community Edition - Please follow the link
http://www.kirux.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=102
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.....may take money away from the contribs.org DONATION business.
I don't know if you have noticed, but the donations are not exactly enough to run a business on. I am sure that the bandwidth alone costs more than the $615 shown on the left side. I know, I provide alternative download areas for alot of the software on this site, as well as others on the net. A dedicated 10mb circuit is not cheap. I do it because I want to. It is my way of giving back, besides the donations I have made.
Now, My Rant:
You have come into this community and, like a true salesman, started pitching "your" software package. It would be one thing if you tried to help others in this community or if you provided creative ideas or alternative ways to change things for the better of this community, but you have not. Alot of these people have worked really hard since Mitel handed over the source-code and the entire message board contents to contribs.org. It just really rubs them the wrong way that someone who's ONLY SELFISH goal is to make money off of their hard work. It is not a completely new product, but you then have the audacity to pitch it to the users of this community without even trying to give back to the same community that started "your" software off. That is just ignorance and arrogance that no-one here wants or has to put up with.
Yes, there are resellers here. Show me a linux community that doesn't have resellers on their messege boards; but, these resellers have respect enough NOT pitch their own products. If you take a look, the links to the reseller's sites are provided by happy customers or users that know a specific "contrib" is available for purchase on the seller's site.
You complain about this community, but yet you stay to keep generating "publicity" as the victim in this situation that you keep perpitrating. Oh, yeah, poor you, all you want to do is sell your product. Well, why don't you start your own community and take your "followers" with you. Personally, I haven't seen anyone of these so called "followers" chime in.
In short, if you would like to help, fine. If you want to continue to whine and moan, take it somewhere else.
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...
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Taken from the community edition release.
The Kuadra ES Community Edition can be freely shared, but selling or altering this version for commercial purposes is prohibited. If you agreed with the conditions, you must proceed to download.
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Moses the only one trying to distract anyone is YOU. Classic example of misdirection on your part, I can’t defend my position so let talk about something else.
I wonder, are they trying to distract the community from the real issues or just resellers trying to get some free software?
Like the "free" software that you have based your “business” on? You have taken the hard work of others and used it, but have failed to comply with their wishes, i.e., their chosen terms of licensing. The GPL license for one requires that the source code be released to any third party, without any restrictions other than those of the specific license. You however, want to place restrictions on, at least portions of the software.
“The Kuadra ES Community Edition can be freely shared, but selling or altering this version for commercial purposes is prohibited.
Oh, where can it be downloaded from? Still not available, oh my!
You clearly should have looked into software that is licensed differently for your "business". The work of Shad Lords and all of the others that have contributed before is being greatly disrespected by you, a man apparently with no honor.
I wonder, if these well intended people, that are "defending the community from evil doers" prefer to keep the power, the control and money in contribs.org. Appears that the "defenders of the community" do not like anything thing that could be an alternative to the existing SME server and may take money away from the contribs.org DONATION business.
It is clear that the community has a voice, but a vote?
Lets see, how many from the community have defended you here??? Haven’t seen a one. They can voice their opinions here. As for a vote, start contributing and the people will decide if it is useful. Speak up that’s another way to vote. If enough of the developers and users agree that’s the direction the project will eventually go or it will die due to lack of interest. Change is slow especially in a community like this, but it is possible.
I don’t have any financial interest in contribs, and you still piss me off. I am pretty sure that no one involved with the contribs community is making money, even if you were inconsiderate enough to believe their time has no value.
I for one would never want to enter into a business relationship with someone like you. That would be like buying software from SCO. 8^))
Thanks to all of the hardworking SME developers! Here's to ya! :pint:
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Anyone knows what Moses wrote before he edited them off ?
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Moses, I don't think you have helped your situation by erasing your posts. You've left everyone that reads this with the suspicion you know you have done something illegal and are attemting to cover your tracks.
It is still possible for you to fix this I think:
- Give the deserved credit to SME Server by putting back the copyright notices as you found them in SME 6.5, and on all the GPL contribs in your software.
-Give credit to SME Server on your website instead of passing off the entire product as your work.
- Share your modifications to the existing functionality of the base system freely with the SME developers.
-Keep and sell your addons as proprietary, but I would suggest to keep them compatible with SME - you can then sell them to all SME users (6000+ users)
-And you can still sell systems as you are, pre-configured with all your addons included just as you are now. I think mostly you will end up doing most of your business in the area you live anyways.
I think if you did all this you would not only regain the respect of the SMEServer developers and community, it would be a more profitable situation for you as well.
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I think that he may have erased his post because a google search for Kuadra ES, “his” product puts this forum post as the # 3 result. That’s not good for “his” Kuadra ES business.
The sad part of this is that Moses, of Kuadra ES fame, would most likely not be harmed by complying with the license requirements. Most, not all, people that would be interested in purchasing “his” Kuadra ES product would not be anyone from the contribs community. When I was looking for a server solution, I did look at his site and quickly recognized Kuadra ES for what it was and therefore was not interested. He does list the software that he used for the most part with the exception of the contribs contributions. So if you are familiar with Linux you probably wouldn’t be interested in Kuadra ES.
His should focus on selling services for Kuadra ES. People that would be interested in his product, Kuadra ES, wouldn’t care about getting the source code. They are looking for an end solution, not in tinkering with a Linux distribution. I think he would be more successful with a model of selling his services on an annual basis, and lowering the entry fee to gain customers. I don’t know for sure this is just off the top of my head so you don’t have to spend too much time telling me I am wrong about how Kuadra ES could make money. 8^)
I understand he spent time tweaking SME to get to Kuadra ES, but clearly he would have had to spend an enormous amount of time, developing Kuadra ES, if he didn’t have all the hard work of the previous developers to start from.
Thanks to all of the hardworking SME developers!
:hammer: Oh and its Kuadra ES we are talking about here right. 8^) Think I got Kuadra ES into my post enough? :hammer: 8^)
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Hmm....looks like our dear Moses have decided not to release the KES Community Edition anymore.
He removed it from his website.
http://www.kirux.net/
:-(
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Greg:
Could you be so kind to email me your email address. Possible solution.
Moses
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Helpful tip to Moses:
In my professional life I am the type of person your company would speak to about buying your software. Companies nowadays don't care who builds what, or who develops what. All they want to know is:
Is the product supportable?
Is there an upgrade path? In other words, if the product is from a company, then is the company solvent? And if the product is based off of O.S. code, then is there any risk to being sued (e.g. SCO).
The reason I bring this up to you is because if you compare YOUR company against the above criteria, you are actually WORSE off than if you freely admitted and supported SME in your site and marketing.
Why? Because what happens if you go bust? Get sued? Get bought out? Drop the product alltogether? Your a small company, I've never heard of you, and even if I have possesion of your source code, what am I going to do with it? Support a fork on my own? I'm in the business of [INSERT INDUSTRY HERE], I'm not a developer!
Also, how do I even know that your platform is 'best of breed'? How do I know I'm not getting yesterdays technology today? What happens when I need to upgrade?
See, you could have shamelessly wrapped yourself around the SME community and have been so much better off. You could have pitched how you can provide 'top notch support' and 'custom development based on your unique business needs', and 'rapid and flexible deployment'. 'All built around one of the communities most trusted SME platform' (it easily beats out CC).
I dunno, I just don't get it. You can delete your posts if you want, but anyone who searches on your company and/or your product(s) will invariably find this thread. The damage is done. All because you arrogantly believed that your product was somehow bigger than the sum of its parts.
My advice, drop the charade and embrace the community. Open up your source. And plaster SME in every conceivable place on your site. Your customers, TRUST ME, will still come. And, if I may, the community will most definitly embrace you back.
me 2 cents,
Geoffrey
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Greg:
Could you be so kind to email me your email address. Possible solution.
Moses
If you have any "possible solution", then post it here.
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Kirux.net is a Mambo CMS, using an unmodified template, JavaBean, supplied with the product, the only change I can see is the pasting of your logo over the top of the main graphic, why not 'rebadge' mambo as your own too? and steal credit from them. (footer should read 'Powered by Kuadra and Kirux CMS....'
The Kontender NT product includes 'an Intranet Portal', not sure if it is Mambo or Metadot (as linked at the bottom of page), but has that been stripped of all credits too?
I push SME and Mambo to my customers, but I always tell them the whole story - i.e, why pay for good (gag, cough - M$) software, when you can use GREAT software, for free, have a stable and reliable deployment and be supported by a global community, rather than a greedy monopoly.
my Sunday morning 2 cents
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Dear Moses,
From your website: http://www.kirux.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=102
"TThe Kuadra ES was based on the GPL version of the SME Server, formerly known as e-smith/Mitel (now contribs.org) and includes copyright material from Mitel, contribs.org, the contribs.org community members and others. "
What do you mean by "was based on" ? You are saying that now the KES is not based on the GPL version of the SME Server ? So it was writen from scratch ?
Also:
"The majority of the software packages included with Kuadra ES Community Edition are subject to the terms of the GPL. However, there are some elements of the Kuadra ES Community Edition Software which are proprietary and are the copyrighted and intellectual property of Kirux Technology Solutions Inc. "
Which elements of the KES Community Edition Software are properietary and writen completely by your developers?
Also this is copied from the contribs mainpage: http://no.longer.valid/news/
"We would like to remind you that the SME Server software is licensed under the General Public License (GPL). This means that if you alter the software and distribute the altered version, you must make the source code for your altered version freely available."
Did you understand the license before using the SME Server as your base for KES?
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Now Googling for Kuadra ES and kirux will still bring up this thread as the #3 result ... with kiruxadmin posts obviously deleted! (Though what of the Google cache, hmmm .... yup, some posts still there. Archiving now.) And to someone contemplating purchase of the software, that's a BIG RED FLAG. So Moses, congratulations on shooting yourself in the foot. This is what comes of building a house on sand, not rock!
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Any idea when will the community edition be released ?
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Pop. Waiting for community edition :hammer:
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A very long wait and still no sign of it.
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If you guys read my post on this thread from August 4th, you'll have an idea of what's going on. Moses has made an effort to give credit to SME Server on his website, and I believe all the copyright holders of the SMEServer software have a copy of his evaluation CD now. I don't think he will make the evaluation copy available to download until they are satisfied with the licencing/copyright issues, but that is up to him. Email him and ask for one if you want.
I persoanlly am hoping that he will collaborate on SMEServer, rather than his own distribution. Lets keep discussion on this website on the topic of SMEServer, enough has been said about Kirux here.
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How about the community edition then ?
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Kirux server on Distrowatch waiting list
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=current
New on the waiting list
* Kirux Kuadra Enterprise Server. Kirux Kuadra Enterprise Server is a powerful and dynamic, all-in-one server platform for small to medium size businesses. The system features an easy-to-use web based Server Administration Panel and requires little or no IT expertise to administer the server.
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Kirux server on Distrowatch waiting list
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=current
New on the waiting list
* Kirux Kuadra Enterprise Server. Kirux Kuadra Enterprise Server is a powerful and dynamic, all-in-one server platform for small to medium size businesses. The system features an easy-to-use web based Server Administration Panel and requires little or no IT expertise to administer the server.
I suggest everyone's who is even remotely interested post a comment on that weekly news...
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Looks like Moses have removed all references to the SME Server again from Kirux website.
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I emailed Moses today. The community edition page is back. - http://kirux.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=57&Itemid=105
He's in the process of getitng a mirror site for the ISO.
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Hej
I have used the free edition for a cupple of month
now and i must say its realy perfect and Moses have
helped alot with anything i asked about the best thing i ever seen is the function to make a complete backup of the running server as a Iso file everything is build in if you have a problem then you just put the latest iso in a new server and then you are up an running after 20 min i hope Moses wil join the contrib community with all his skills.
This is not a comercial for Moses just some info to other peaple here i know they want some info.
Regards from Jan
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Only six users allowed and no way to download the iso (coming Real Soon Now).
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I emailed Moses today. The community edition page is back. - http://kirux.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=57&Itemid=105
He's in the process of getitng a mirror site for the ISO.
Moses had claimed that this community edition will be out in the begining of August, then mid august then end of august because they are "securing mirror sites". After you have replied to my post, it then disappeared completely along with any reference to the SME Server or Contribs until jjcuk's post.
Have you asked him why he removed all the references to SME Server ? Will this happen again once he believes that everything has "quieten" down ?
However no one is questioning his or his developers' programming skill. Again, the question becomes whether he can be trusted.
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Only six users allowed and no way to download the iso (coming Real Soon Now).
Initially it was one domain and unlimited users. then it was one domain and 50 users. Finally it was one domain and 25 users.
Now we have one domain and 6 users.
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Hej everybody who read this
After my last post there has been a lot of ip addresses trying to hack my own server so i think thats why Moses secure the server where he has the ISO
Last time i put a Iso up for download at my server to help the comunety i also got a lot of these attacks dont know why peaple do that but they must have a reason for it.
Moses say to me that he is getting the Iso on when he has everything in place for it and belive me its worth waiting for there has been a lot of improvement
sorry if i affend any one with this statement but you want info and this is the only way i can give it.
Hope not anyone is been mad becaurse i writing this
Regards to you all from Jan in Denmark
ps/Sorry if i dont spell right i am old 8-)
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I think he was beat Take a look at the link below
and click on the server-manager links
http://www.linuxon.com/panel.htm
Looks like Sme doesn't it
99 bucks and no limits
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I think he was beat Take a look at the link below
and click on the server-manager links
http://www.linuxon.com/panel.htm
Looks like Sme doesn't it
99 bucks and no limits
Even the pictures on are taken http://www.linuxon.com/faq.htm is taken from Greg Swallow's manual at http://smeserver.sourceforge.net/sme70/Manual.
Funny Either Mitel or Contribs are mentioned at the web site from what I can see.
/M
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Maybe once the elections are over, we get our elected candidates to, maybe form a legal comittee watch-dog or something whose sole task would be to go after these jokers.
Even I who only contributed 0.000000000001 % into SME am fuming and I am sure the rest of the SME gurus on this forum who've contributed alot more are probably faring alot worse...
Sincere regards..
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Maybe once the elections are over, we get our elected candidates to, maybe form a legal comittee watch-dog or something whose sole task would be to go after these jokers.
This is one of the duties of the Business Agent. It's in the Constitution, about half-way down. A search on 'compliance' will take you right there.
http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php/CommunityConstitution
That said, it is possible to adhere to the letter of the GPL and still not behave in a way that seems fair and just to us regular folks (like public acknowlegement of provenance). It can sometimes take a lot of work to try and figure out exactly what is going on. Even if the GPL is not being observed, it is almost always going to be better to try and work things out amicably.
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Feedback on Kirux Kuadra
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20051031#feedback
Several readers have expressed outrage at our inclusion of Kirux Kuadra Enterprise Server on the waiting list of distributions to be included on DistroWatch. Apparently, the developers of SME Server believe that the Kirux Kuadra project is breaking the General Public License (GPL) by using the SME Server code base for creating a commercial product without releasing the source code of their modifications. While we do sympathise with the developers of SME Server, we also believe that their concerns should be directed to the relevant authorities dealing with GPL violations, such as the appropriately named GPL Violations [ http://gpl-violations.org/ ] web site, rather than to DistroWatch. As a side note, it seems that a community edition of Kirux Kuadra Enterprise Server has now been released for free download and is currently available from Ibiblio.org's incoming directory here: kes-community.iso [ ftp://ftp.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/Incoming/kes-community.iso(620MB) ]
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Maybe once the elections are over, we get our elected candidates to, maybe form a legal comittee watch-dog or something whose sole task would be to go after these jokers.
I was surprised to find out that one of "these jokers" you speak of is running for the Business Agent position here on contribs.org!!!
Constantine Stathopoulos also goes by the name Dean Stathos, president of liunuxon.com
If you have comments to him, direct them here, as I have done:
http://forums.contribs.org/index.php?topic=29341.0
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I have been watching the community forums with anxiety, frustration, astonishment and even at times, levity. This is not to say that the issues and comments surrounding the Kuadra ES are taken light heartedly by Kirux Technology Solutions and its team. The observation of licenses is always priority number 1 when we begin a new project. I am sadden to
say that I believe that this statement will fall on ears of those who have already made up their minds. However, after seeing the frenzy and even enduring some slight attacks on our site and network I felt it time to release a proper response. Hopefully, by the end of this document most of you will have your concerns answered or addressed.
First and foremost, The Kuadra ES is NOT a clone of SME server. There were elements of the SME server were used as template. For the sake of an example these elements were used as “defaults,” and then subsequently enhanced, completely changed or entirely replaced by Kirux. In fact, the Kuadra ES is in no way compatible with SME server. I will say this
again, The Kuadra ES or part thereof is not compatible with any version of SME server. Aside from operating differently and being Enterprise grade, the Kuadra ES also supports modern hardware mplementation and a slew of other things unsupported by SME. In any case, all the SME components are included under the GPL in every version of the Kuadra.
I think it is prudent to address the GPL concerns next.
All the GPL source material which the Kirux Team modified and enhanced are included within every version of the Kuadra ES with the all the copyrights intact. The specific operations that make the Kuadra ES the unique work of the Kirux Technology team resides outside GPL.
One of these enhancements, which I will share here, is the operating environment of the Kuada ES. The Kuadra ES is a synergistic system that
cannot be sectioned off into several pieces for individuals to use on another system. In reality, there is nothing really to share as none of
the system is compatible with anything else, or is capable of running without the Kuadra ES structure remaining intact.
Furthermore, and most IMPORTANTLY, I do provide source code to GPL components to everyone. If anyone wants to download a community copy of
the Kuadra ES , they are more than welcome to. I also wanted to add, that the “similarities” which community members have found in our features .pdf are in fact just that similarities. To be quite frank, the look and feel might seem the similar, but the functionality and the capabilities are quite different.
I feel confident that once users try the community version everyone will see not only how different and integrated the Kuadra ES is but that we
have respected the GPL and it can verify that all the copyrights are intact. If you have any questions email me directly at modria@kirux.net. The link to our community edition and documentation can be found at our site, www.kirux.net
Respectfully yours,
Moses
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Moses had sent me a copy of an earlier version of his community edition. It is very different from SME Server in many ways, most notably the installer. There is a .img file on the CD, which is basically a tar.gz file of the entire filesystem, which is extracted to the hard drive during the install process. He has told me that the entire contents of the .IMG file in the new Community Edition ISO is GPL.
I look forward to trying the new version Moses, and if I have any comments, I'll post them in the forums on your website. Thanks.
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I see at last the ISO is available as a torrent link now, shame it's a very restrictive version.
Makes it hard to justify the price to a company when the free version is so crippled..
Maybe a full version that expired would have been a better idea, to get a better feel.
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I downloaded a copy of this to try out, and I must say it looks very good so far, I have not played with it fully yet just in server mode on a slow bucket:-D . I was expecting one or two other things on it like Asterisk's and some bandwidth management. Webmail looks good. It took quite a bit of bandwidth to download on my home dsl via the torrent , it would be nice if it allowed more users. I hope sme7 will be out soon and a few contribs to go with it.
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not another one is it ?
http://www.linuxon.com/