Koozali.org: home of the SME Server
Contribs.org Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: gordonr on January 20, 2007, 11:32:42 PM
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Hi everyone,
I just spent a week at linux.conf.au and attended some great talks. I thought I'd post some experiences with a view to revitalising our distro. These are musings by me, in no official capacity and on behalf of noone but myself. However, I hope that they start some discussion and then some action.
Please note - you must perform exercise one (below) before you respond to this thread.
We're all guilty of waiting for someone else to do something - now's the time. I'm going to use "we" throughout these musings to mean "the SME Server community", not the dev team, the elected leaders or any other specific group.
Community
One of the keynotes was by Kathy Sierra, who started Java Ranch. She gave a great talk about how to make your users love you and why they do.
Exercise one Please take a moment to click on the "Register" link in the footer of http://www.javaranch.com/ These are the Terms and Conditions I'd like to see here.
Another speaker was Jono Bacon, community evangelist for Ubuntu. Ubuntu is getting it right by building the tools to allow people to contribute in the way they are best able. One of his major themes was "Embrace the non-developers", something we don't do at all well. Spend some time looking at the Ubuntu forums and consider how we could use some of the same models here.
Building tools and procedures takes time and commitment. We need people to step up and lead the various areas (documentation, FAQ, forum moderation, marketing, etc.) and then say what they need to get their job done. And then we need people to find, build and maintain those tools.
Suggestions
The developers should stay out of the forums. We should spend our time doing what we do best - writing code and encouraging others to do so. Bugzilla is scary for many people but the right tool for the dev team.
Let's leave it to other community members to clarify user posts and gather coherent bug reports and encourage reporters to post their bug in the bug tracker. If bugs get reported in the bug tracker, we'll work on them. If they don't, they won't make it into a release. If people find the forums a better place to gather the information prior to reporting it to the bug tracker, so be it.
We need forum moderators who enfore "Be Nice" and ensure that Frequently Asked Questions become FAQ items.
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Thank you for your thoughts Gordon
> These are the Terms and Conditions I'd like to see here.
That's OK by me, we'd both have to expand our screen names
I'd like to see it extended to the wiki and bugzilla and any new tools we use. It can save a lot of time in how you answer a post if you know what who they are / what level they are
> Spend some time looking at the Ubuntu forums and consider how we could use some of the same models here.
I looked at openoffice.org, and then gave up, it was a rambling mess
simplicity would be nice, but no simpler than neccesary
I'm not sure what tools to use, a structured one that directs a user in adding improvements
> We need people to step up and lead the various areas
Yes, but we tried that before
things progressed to a stage and then when the volunteers ran out of steam (understandably) it wasn't obvious new people had to step up
we need an obvious open invitation to work on a task when a user sees it
> (documentation, FAQ, forum moderation, marketing, etc.)
> and then say what they need to get their job done. And then we need people to find, build and maintain those tools.
If we need a short term task force to setup a project, then disband that would be OK, leaving a token presence to maintain them
> Bugzilla is scary for many people but the right tool for the dev team.
I can see why the devs like buzilla so much
sorting items by catagory base|contrib|docs|website.....
and resolving them by status fixed|invalid|duplicate...
it's self organising and is a font of knowledge
if I was god I'd shut down the forums ;-)
at a minimum some some sort of sorting on forum posts would be nice
eg modifying subject headers with [base|open] later in can be changed to [base|docs]
I'd like to see topics split from discussion here and sent to the bug tracker
eg. this one for how to do a FAQ
http://bugs.contribs.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2334
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I'm quite new at this forum but my opinion is
- make a new category (troubleshooting)
- that we should form a group that would browse trough the forum and write different tricks and important solved issues in faq and troubleshooting categories
- rewrite all open bugs in bugtracker (as gordonr suggested)
- write all the new stuff (explanations that are written in the forum) in the manual
- rewrite sme webpage and contribs forum.
- have some mods rewrite solved problems (in torubleshooting category) and delete them from forum
- and i agree that developers should stay off the forum
- mods could delete bugs in the forum (instead of writing please report bug) and report them to bugzilla
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- mods could delete bugs in the forum (instead of writing please report bug) and report them to bugzilla
I don't think that will work. The person with the issue should be the reporter to the bugtracker. That way they can provide more information as requested.
Maybe closing the thread with a link to the bugtracker.
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- mods could delete bugs in the forum (instead of writing please report bug) and report them to bugzilla
I don't think that will work. The person with the issue should be the reporter to the bugtracker. That way they can provide more information as requested.
Maybe closing the thread with a link to the bugtracker.
That would work. And i agree. But we could open a bug for them and post the link.
EG: This issue is being resolved at www......
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Here are my rambling responses.
@gordonr
Exercise one completed.
Conference breaks are great. I would be cool to see a SME conference in the future.
"Ubuntu is getting it right by building the tools to allow people to contribute in the way they are best able."
True. The reason they can do this is because Ubuntu is fueled by big dollars from Mark Shuttleworth, founder of Thawte. If I was mega-rich, I would donate 10 million to SME. I'm pretty certain he has ulterior motives rather than just being a kind-hearted soul.
The reason for their theme is simple. If no one uses the product, the project is dead. They're trying to attract and keep a user base for future investment. Probably another cool $500 million like last time.
In any event, the Excersice one principle is true in any arena.
"Building tools and procedures takes time and commitment."
You probably know this more than anyone by learning it the same way I did -the hard way
"We need people to step up and lead the various areas..."
What you're really looking for and what SME needs is organization. Something that SME has been reluctant to implement in the past since Coleman -no organization, just community. A sure way to kill the project.
One person can't do it alone. A small group can't do it alone either. There's simply too much work.
As you already know, if an organized team approached this, progress would be much faster.
The problem is who's going to organize the team? Hint -it can't be the devs. (A music band or athlete managing themselves is doomed for failure.) There needs to be a higher power than the devs. Bluntly speaking, there's no prominent leader/manager or leadership team to speak of.
It has taken a long time (about 2 yrs) to come to the current structure -bugzilla, mods on the boards, etc. (With the recent addition of snoble as a mod, I'm sure progress will be better). Now I'm seeing the next growth step -dev removal from the boards (applause -I voted for this many moons ago). Think how much further the project could be if this was set from the start.
Want to see real progress? Then it needs organizing. For organization to happen, it needs to be established and clear:
-who the leadership is
-what the organization is (for example, are we going to have mods? how do they become one?)
-what the roles are (ideally, how many and what kind of devs, mods, etc)
I'm out of steam...
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>I'm quite new at this forum but my opinion is
>- make a new category (troubleshooting)
maybe but we'd need two more, one for the release one for contribs
so no
>- that we should form a group that would browse trough the forum and >write different tricks and important solved issues in faq and >troubleshooting categories
yes, but it need not be restricted to a group,
we have a wiki anyone can update it
>- rewrite all open bugs in bugtracker (as gordonr suggested)
all stale bug were just closed
if people don't follow through a report it was just a wish report
>- write all the new stuff
>(explanations that are written in the forum) in the manual
as above,
but have a look at recent changes, others are hesitant to contribute
>- rewrite sme webpage and contribs forum.
smeserver.org has been tidied up
I think it's mostley fine as it is now
contribs.org can just redirect to smeserver.org
content can go in forums. and wiki.
but this is just my opinion, there is an elected board who will decide
>- have some mods rewrite solved problems (in torubleshooting >category) and delete them from forum
see above, anyone can update the wiki
see below, anyone can report a bug
>- and i agree that developers should stay off the forum
why ?
they have the answers
do people dislike the 'please report a bug' line ?
it helps keep the forums free of misinformation and speculation
forums solve one persons problems
fixed bugs solve the problem for all
>- mods could delete bugs in the forum
>(instead of writing please report bug) and report them to bugzilla
no
it has to be self service
the reporter has to work through the bug
2c
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Hi Gordon;
I'll throw in my suggestions; I've been lurking about in the SME community for about a year at this point. FYI, the reason I opted to go with SME after looking for a server solution that was easy to manage, based on a well supported linux, and had an active community was the forums. Specifically, the good level of activity.
So, from the point of view of an observer, user, FOSS advocate and participant, and sometime web site designer guy, I make the following observations/suggestions of/to the SME community.
1. The "Be nice" instruction is critical. Berating someone when they don't follow protocol does not build loyalty. The Ubuntu forums are a good example of what to do. Red Hat/Fedora developers even attempt humor every now and then. Will forum moderators and those in the know ever be able to stop reminding people of what and how to do things properly? No. Might as well get used to it and smile.
2. I was and still am to a degree confused by the various domains, locations, and resources that fall under the SME umbrella. I suggest a single entry point on the web. Make it smeserver.org, point contribs.org at smeserver.org. Use Joomla as the front end there. Put a short description of what SME is right on top with a link to a static page of features, have occasional news posts underneath, for example when a new version is released. In the following order, a link to an About Us page that includes a history of SME, the current status and people involved. Then a link to wiki based documentation followed by a link to a wiki based FAQ (FAQ contributors should be asked to maintain their FAQ or FAQs. This way one or two become familiar with the software and can move into the FAQ maintainer's position when the current one decides to bail.). Then a link to the forum, a link to a wiki based repository of howtos, and a link to the contribs which could be handled by Joomla. Finally, a link to bugzilla. Put the different major resources in sub-domains or sub-directories, not on other domains. No links anywhere else, that is, if I get lost I go back to the home page and in three clicks I can get to where I was.
Put something right on the home page about donating to the project, provide a mechanism by which it can be done in three clicks or less, and thank recent contributors by name right on the front page, maybe in the same box as the link to Paypal (if that's the preferred money transfer agent, god help us).
Do away with all the other resources, or hide them in such a way that people think of smeserver.org as the place to start and end.
3. On the subject of forums, developers in forums, bug reporting in bugzilla, etc. I suggest a "protocol" be published and accessible and referenced in multiple places so people know what to do;
If one experiences some unexpected behavior, they should be advised to first search the documentation, then the FAQ. No luck, search the forums. Nothing there, search bugzilla. Nothing there, back to the forums to post an observation of the issue, and request community input. Developers participate in the forums to various degrees, maybe they jump into a thread and recommend filing a bugzilla if the issue appears to be something that they'd like to explore further, but not until the community has had a chance to work over the issue. This is what open source community is all about, in my opinion. Handling things in this way builds community and encourages participation and user education. It encourages advanced users to become mentors, and distributes the workload among more people.
If something is determined to be a user problem, it is solved in the forums (and maybe inspires a FAQ, a howto, or a clarification in the docs) and bugzilla is not filled with junk. If the community is not able to resolve the issue, a bugzilla report is made, and interaction between developers and users can continue from there in a format that is more organized and desirable to the developers. Bug reporters should then report back to their thread with the bugzilla entry so that others can follow along.
4. Forum moderators would know about the protocol and would guide the community in a friendly way. They would read the forums they moderate, and recommend that a howto or something that looks like a howto be added to the howto wiki if it appears to be mature and functional. Same thing with a FAQ. Keep the number of forums to a minimum; pretty much what it is now looks good to me based on the traffic. Keep it simple.
5. Every year or two, public elections to a small set of posts, including forum moderators. Update the SME About Us page with the results.
Building a community is critical to the survival of the project. Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but it looks to me that if one or two of the current major players disappears, the project will suffer significantly, and that would be a shame. SME is great.
Finally, I hereby volunteer to help with any of the above work.
-Pete
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I agree with a single webpage. smeserver.org to point to contribs or if we use only smeserver and cancel contribs domain.
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I agree with a single webpage. smeserver.org to point to contribs or if we use only smeserver and cancel contribs domain.
We would maintain the contribs.org domain in whatever scenario we decide. The existing URLs should be migrated to whatever is decided. As well as a huge number of web search hits we have links from other bug trackers to our bug tracker.
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Sorry but i forgot about websearch and links. :oops:
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Hi all i have been a member since 2004
I agree with gordonr musings
We need to let the devs do the job they are doing without having to request people to post in the SME Server Development Bugzilla Bug Tracking system on the forums
Looking at dtech post this maybe the way to go lets have a one stop shop promoting sme server using the contribs.org domain links across the top of the forum directing people to a faq answering the most common questions asked in the forums and a page with howto's. and a good front page promoting SME Server.
I hereby volunteer to help with any of the above work
I am no developer but willing learn.
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we have a wiki anyone can update it
I would like to help where I can, but I can't find a link to the wiki on contribs.org or smeserver.org
Can someone point me in the right direction...
Thanks, David
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The manual is on the wiki, link at top of page
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I've been around for about a year and I have just recently got this site(s) sorted out a bit and worked up a few standpoints:
I think dmajwool (two posts up) made one of my major points!
The (exellent tool) wiki is not obvious and visible enough for people to find, understand, use and edit it.
I suggest that 1. -the link "SME Server Manual" is replaced with a link to the Wikis main page.
2. -more (well organized) links on the Wikis first page (or a dedicated content page) to unveal all the secrets hidden on the site(s).
As it is today I stumble across valuable information in a rather random manner.
In my understanding SME community contain three major parts (forum, wiki and bugzilla)
and a whole lot of unorganized, unlinked and (for most users) unknown treasure-box of information on the servers:
http://mirror.contribs.org/smeserver/contribs/
I've noticed that there are (among other things) some very useful HowTos there.
I think they ought to be in the Wiki instead, at least a link to the original. Polish them up a bit and they will be great!
If some (prominent) person agree on that I'm willing to contribute!
And I think dtech made some good points too in the same direction.
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I agree the wiki could now be the home page
http://bugs.contribs.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2881
rpms in http://mirror.contribs.org/smeserver/contribs/ are only useful if documented
anyone can add a new page to the wiki explaining a useful contrib they have found, it doesn't have to be the contrib author
add your suggestions for the home page to the discussion tab
thanks
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It's been a while since my last post...
From my point of view, what was great in the last months:
- SME Server 7.0 and 7.1 releases.
- Several updates to 7.0 and 7.1 releases
- http://bugs.contribs.org/ (lots of useful information)
- A lot more developers are participating as we can see at http://sourceforge.net/project/memberlist.php?group_id=96750
- wiki.contribs.org (needs a lot of work but it looks promising)
And now, what did not go so well (just my opinion):
- This forum: lack of a beginners section (essential), lack of SME Server Major Topics (email, windows networking, linux networking, tcp/ip networking, antivirus/antispam filtering, remote access, etc), lack of SME Contribs/Addons Major Topics (asterisk/selintra, web filtering, backup/dar2, web applications, ldap/samba integration, etc).
- This forum practise and guidelines: see the http://ubuntuforums.org for an excellent example on how to manage a forum.
- Lack of good documentation: see https://help.ubuntu.com and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ for excellent examples on how to initiate and support beginners and advanced users.
- Confusion about the main domains: contribs.org or smeserver.org?
Why am I writing this? Well, 6 months ago I decided to put Ubuntu Linux on my desktops and I am loving it because: it's easy to understand, very well documented and I know what to expect from the distro (2 releases each year) and from the people behind it (they really listen the users and communicate their decisions very well).
Comparing to SME Server (which is my main server) my first try was back in 2000/2001 and today I still don't know how to properly adapt my box to my needs or to my clients' needs (specially ldap integration). Therefore I still recommend Windows Servers to them (around 25/30) but I am already switching theirs Windows XP/2000 boxes to Ubuntu.
Just my 2 cents,
Nuno