Koozali.org: home of the SME Server

New distro based on SME

Garret

New distro based on SME
« on: June 02, 2003, 05:41:00 AM »
I'd be interested in what the SME developers think of a new distro called "YES". I have read the licensing and it seems to be a far cry from the GPL to me.
The link . . . http://www.youresale.com/
Thanks,

Garret

Kingnubian

Re: New distro based on SME
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2003, 05:54:22 AM »
I checked out the site as well as the online demo and so far I'm not really impressed. You can do all of that for free with SME as it is and a few FREE addons. If I am wrong someone please correct .

YES seems at first glance no easier to get into than SME server 5.6. What improvements are there???

Duncan

Re: New distro based on SME
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2003, 07:36:16 AM »
Interesting demo. Tested out the shutdown function. It worked.

Duncan

Duncan

Re: New distro based on SME
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2003, 08:30:58 AM »
Reboot works as well.

Long weekend here - Very bored.

Duncan

Garret

Re: What this post is was really about
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2003, 10:07:32 PM »
What I was really looking for was some response and thoughts on the licensing. Notice that their license claims to have precedence over any and all other licenses . . . then they go on to say that some of the included software is included under the GPL, and some included under somthing like "other licenses". It also appears that only some of their resalers are eligible to receive the source code. I'm wondering about the perceived validity of this.

Garret

guestHH

Re: New distro based on SME
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2003, 10:26:39 PM »
How come you think it's based on SME ?

Scott Smith

Re: What this post is was really about
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2003, 10:38:51 PM »
Okay, I'll take the bait.

First, their license cannot supercede existing licenses of other products, nor do I think that was the intent. Somebody is mistaken if they believe that is possible.

What they are trying to say is that the version of THEIR license posted on the Internet supercedes any other copy of THEIR license that might exist. In other words, if you have a copy from a few months ago, and they've changed the wording on the web site, it is the web site version that is official. I don't know that they've properly worded their license to provide for this, but it is a pretty common practice. Read almost any "agreement", be it software or credit card or whatever, and you'll find a clause that reserves the right of the provider to change the agreement, unilaterally, at any time. Usually there is some notification that accompanies the change, but that is a courtesy moreso than a requirement I believe. Anyway, all they are saying is that the current and effective agreement is the one posted on their site. All others are facsimilies.

Since they cannot override the licenses of Mitel, Red Hat, nor anyone else, all they can license is any original work they may have done. Most likely this would be any installation and/or configuration and/or management interface. They can also license the use of their name and media products and services. As such, this puts them in the same boat as Mitel. Mitel could (and does in some cases) place a non-open license on their bits -- the template system, the web manager, etc. They also own the product name, they various documents and manuals, the logo, and so forth. This original work, unless it is largely derivative of another work or is subjected to a license/royalty agreement of a product used in their creation, can be copyrighted and licensed however the owner chooses.

For example, I could take Red Hat Linux 9 and create a configuration management system that would use a modified anaconda configuration to load only the packages I want loaded, and use a MySQL database to store configuration options, and use python to read the database and expand config file prototypes by merging in the config data from the database, and write a web-based manager to control it all -- I could even establish an Internet service that would provide automatic updates, security and performance monitoring, email and dns services, and maybe even simplified VPN management (sound somewhat familiar?) I could then place a restrictive license on my configurator and services and the code that makes the services work and charge for it and refuse to make the source available. I can't stop anyone from getting Red Hat, MySQL, python, or anything else, but I can stop you from using my protected property. Or, I can make it all GPL, and hope to make money from providing services.

The biggest problem I see with "YES" is that they are not clear in what they do (vis-a-vis the technical aspects of the system) and what they provide (in terms of proprietary code and functionality) and what they license. However, in general, there is nothing to prevent them from using SME as the basis for their product, so long as the respect the SME license.

By the way, just because someone distributes software protected under the GPL, that does not require them to also distrubute the source. Nor does it require them to make the source freely available. They GPL only requires that the source be available UPON REQUEST and allows a reasonable media fee to be charged. The ubiquity of the Internet has provided a convenient means for GPL source to be made freely (as in beer) available; however, it is not mandated by the GPL itself. Arguments of good open source citizenship aside, anyone authoring and/or distributing GPL software is within their rights to not publicly distribute the source and to demand you pony up some cash in order to get a copy. Most people don't want the source, however -- so I suspect the cost of managing a fee for source policy, when most people won't be asking for the source anyway and therefore the revenue would be comparatively small, makes it more effective to simply post source publically.

Standard disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, so don't take my word for it. However, that is how it has been explained to me by someone who cannot say IANAL.

George

Re: New distro based on SME
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2003, 11:03:13 PM »
The SME 5.5  and the Mitel Copyright on the server manager were the first clue.

Garret

Re: New distro based on SME
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2003, 11:06:27 PM »
From the distrowatch front page with the latest anouncement
"YourESale is a Linux distribution based on SME e-smith"

Garret

Re: What this post is was really about
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2003, 11:18:31 PM »
I understand the source code issue, believe me, I live it everyday. It was this bit that bothered me . . ."

 Look no further, YourESale is here to help. You can become a YEP, for only $1,000.00 per month. You get everything a YEA gets, plus exclusive access to YES source code, along with Technical Support, thus ensuring your product will be successful and integrate seemlessly with YES. This license states that for each custom product sold using YES Technology you have to pay YourESale ONLY $50. For each commercial installation performed you have to pay YourESale ONLY $50.
Join Today."

It's that word "exclusive".

Also the VERY unclear licensing bothers me.

I don't mind people getting paid for their work (I like to get paid), but I do have issues when people take advantage of other peoples work and don't comply with the terms that work has been released with.

I'm not saying that's what is going on here, just interested in hearing what other people are thinking.

Garret

Scott Smith

Re: What this post is was really about
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2003, 01:01:28 AM »
Again, it is not the issue of the exclusive or proprietary nature of their licensing that is the issue. They are welcome to do that for their own stuff, and only a complete novice would not know how to gain access to SME and other GPL sources. I don't see any issues in this area.

The real source of confusion is the very poorly written license statement, along with the equally poorly written product offering. The sales and marketing mumbo jumbo is adequately vague , but the legalese needs to be better written. Smacks of a one- or few-person shop trying to save money on legal fees. Works great until someone decides to sue you...

Personally, I wouldn't get involved until the offerings were better stated and the licensing more clear. As is, it seems a curiosity and little more.

Garret

Re: What this post is was really about
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2003, 05:54:03 PM »
> Again, it is not the issue of the exclusive or proprietary
> nature of their licensing that is the issue. They are welcome
> to do that for their own stuff,

I agree, they are more than welcome to do it with their own stuff, and only that. Question is, what is their own stuff and what isn't? Hard to tell by their licensing.

> and only a complete novice
> would not know how to gain access to SME and other GPL
> sources. I don't see any issues in this area.

I disagree, many people have experiance on many different levels. What might make total and complete sense to one, could be very confusing to another. Also I don't believe that it is enough that the source be avaialbe just somewhere, or for people who know how to find it. The person making changes to the GPL'd code in question is required to provide the source, and yes, I know they can charge for the media, and all of that, but THEY are still responsible to supply the source when it's asked for. It's not good enough to say, go to site A and get some code, then go to site B and get some more code, oh yeah, the guy over at site C has some too, you might want to swing by there also.

> The real source of confusion is the very poorly written
> license statement, along with the equally poorly written
> product offering. The sales and marketing mumbo jumbo is
> adequately vague , but the legalese needs to be better
> written. Smacks of a one- or few-person shop trying to save
> money on legal fees. Works great until someone decides to sue
> you...

Agreed

> Personally, I wouldn't get involved until the offerings were
> better stated and the licensing more clear. As is, it seems a
> curiosity and little more.

Again, agreed.

Garret

Perry Michalski

Re: What this post is was really about
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2003, 10:25:02 PM »
Scott Smith wrote:
They can also license the use of their name and
> media products and services. As such, this puts them in the
> same boat as Mitel. Mitel could (and does in some cases)
> place a non-open license on their bits -- the template
> system, the web manager, etc. They also own the product name,
> they various documents and manuals, the logo, and so forth.
> This original work, unless it is largely derivative of
> another work or is subjected to a license/royalty agreement
> of a product used in their creation, can be copyrighted and
> licensed however the owner chooses.

Scott, the manager interface and the templating system is copyright Mitel, but is placed in GPL.  Once it has been designated GPL, that particular version is GPL for life.  Mitel cannot change their minds and make licensing retroactive.  Of course, new versions can become proprietary (If they think that they are right).  They could always be challenged on that point, since they are relying on other GPL software.

For example, custom configuration scripts stored in /etc/ could be considered property of each respective GPL application... like samba's smb.conf, etc.  It would be considered software theft if that was every incorporated it into a proprietary package.  Plus, I'm not even sure that looking at GPL software and then using code in your own proprietary software (except BSD code, of course, which is legal to use) would be legal.  That could leave you open to a lawsuit.

Mitel does have a few "proprietary" RPMS in their distribution.  They need to be analysed closer.

http://forums.contribs.org/index.php?topic=17080.msg66264#msg66264

I'm not a lawyer, but I've had one look at the licensing.  Yes, they own the product name, manuals, logo, blades and these are propietary.