Topic: Disappointment

[Ervin Jakab]

Hello everybody,

Although I have my diploma in Informatics, I am a beginner with e-smith and not too intermediate with Linux . I installed e-smith a few days ago on a production box, mainly because of it's Web, e-mail and FTP administration features, or at least the ones I thought it had. I must say, now I regret it.

I understand e-smith is based on the philosophy that the admin should never see/use a Linux prompt. However, you should admit that you are very far from this because one can configure a very small number of the needed things using only the Web interface (not to talk about annoying bugs, sorry it IS a bug, like the FTP access problem for i-bays outlined earlier).

I think the documentation lacks a lot of information, especially about the template architecture. The number of official howto's should be a shame for any project which is now at version 4+. The software is a wonderful masterpiece overall but the documentation, as somebody has already said, stinks.

I have read many posts about the FTP problem and I have to say that the official ones are arrogant and ignorant. When people try to use the console instead of the standard e-smith interface, that means that the Web interface lacks some very important features, not that you have a perfect software with stupid users!

I think you should give up this paranoid approach to security and let users configure their own ipchains rules and all the security settings through the web interface. You could still provide a default secure install, but you would give users the power to customize their configurations on their own risk. With an approach like yours, now , I think OpenBSD would be a dead project instead the most succesful among the secure UNIXes.

I know this strong language will upset a lot of you, but I just want to say:wake up! You are good, but you can be better if you don't let yourself buried in pride and self-confidence. There is still a lot of work to be done, and free software means that you pay for EXTRA-support, and EXTRA-development, not that you pay for basic explanations like howto's about a closed architecture.

I do not know what I am going to do with my e-smith box and all my users, but I guess I can set up my own IMP and password-change form and break free from all the constrictions you impose without proper explanation.

Maybe a Redhat-based distro is not always better than the original? I don't know the answer yet, but I will definitel find it.

[Ervin Jakab]

I was too hard on the documentation part, if we include in the documentation the 'e-smith design and architecture' subjects on the home page, but which can be easily overlooked when in /docs. This does not apply to the howto's, which should be a lot better and more.

I respect open-source companies a lot, but this kind of approach drives people back to Windows. I think, the problem with Linux is that programmers first code then document and not the opposite and not use code-document-code-... cycles. Just code and if people want explanations, let them buy support.

There are a lot of undocumented and hence unexistent distros in the world. I think e-smith is too good to be lost because people have to find out how it works like in the old non-Internet days, sweating for every piece of knowledge about the system.

Only 10 howto's in a nonstandard distribution? You could use a motto like this: "Our users can read our minds and our code". I can't.

Maybe I need a few months more...

[Dan Brown]

The e-smith server and gateway, it seems to me, was designed to fit a fairly narrow niche.  When used as intended, the user-level documentation is wholly adequate, and the system generally (bugs aside) functions as intended.  There's no need to mess with template files, tinker with ipchains rules, or do anything else at the command prompt.

The problem comes when somebody wants to do more than what the stock system allows.  At that point, you're right, there isn't a single, integrated set of documentation.

[Donald E. Stidwell]

Dan Brown wrote:
>
> The e-smith server and gateway, it seems to me, was designed
> to fit a fairly narrow niche.  When used as intended, the
> user-level documentation is wholly adequate, and the system
> generally (bugs aside) functions as intended.  There's no
> need to mess with template files, tinker with ipchains rules,
> or do anything else at the command prompt.

And that's the whole point - there's hardly any need to mess with anything in e-smith and installation is truly a no-brainer. This is a system that a non-technical person could easily install and is ideal for sites without an IS staff.

For those sites that wish more than the stock system offers, I am sure e-smith, Inc. will go all out to provide those needs if one buys a subscription and one can hardly argue with the more than reasonable price of US $595/year.

>
> The problem comes when somebody wants to do more than what
> the stock system allows.  At that point, you're right, there
> isn't a single, integrated set of documentation.

If one wants to do massive customisations, I think one would be better served by a general purpose Linux distro, or by one of the BSDs. I have the highest regard for FreeBSD and use it at my site for specialised servers. VA Linux's customised Red Hat Distro is also an excellent general purpose server and was what I was using for one of my general purpose servers prior to replacing it with e-smith which better suited what I needed for that particular server.

I think so highly of e-smith's distro that I plan to replace my Novell server with e-smith once the lease on the hardware expires! Since I am a network engineer, I don't mind doing the research and work to add my own customisations. But look in the forums -- I bet you'll find most of the answers you need in here.

Just my 2 cents.

Don

[Huw]

Oh stop moaning, (I sound like my mother)

I love to fiddle with my small (1 win 1 mac 2 RedHat 1 E-Smith Modem & printers) network.  The great thing about e-smith is I can't seem to break it.  This keep my wife happy as her i-mac still gets her mail and web etc..

Huw (a very satisfied non customer i.e. I downloaded it)


Just pressed the Quote button, what about an unQuote one?

[Scott Smith]

Huw wrote:
[snip]
>
> Just pressed the Quote button, what about an unQuote one?

Click in the text area, press Ctrl-A, press Del

(^_^)

[peter]

Huw, I too love E-Smith for its sheer "rightness" (is that a word?). I also have a small HAN (home area network) of windows PCs. Recently I have setup one machine to dual boot to mandrake 7.2.  My sole problem is I cannot get Mandrake to see the HPIII printer which is attached to the the E-Smith box parallel port.The  "other side" of the dual boot (W98) can see and use the printer no problem. Have tried the latest CUPs to no avail. Is your printer attached to the E-smith server and if so, can your Linux PCs use it? Any hints, tips, etc gratefully recieved.

[Donald E. Stidwell]

peter wrote:
>
> Huw, I too love E-Smith for its sheer "rightness" (is that a
> word?). I also have a small HAN (home area network) of
> windows PCs. Recently I have setup one machine to dual boot
> to mandrake 7.2.  My sole problem is I cannot get Mandrake to
> see the HPIII printer which is attached to the the E-Smith
> box parallel port.The  "other side" of the dual boot (W98)
> can see and use the printer no problem. Have tried the latest
> CUPs to no avail. Is your printer attached to the E-smith
> server and if so, can your Linux PCs use it? Any hints, tips,
> etc gratefully recieved.

I use e-smith on my HAN (nice term!) as well as at work. In both cases, I am using HP Jetdirect boxes to print to laser printers. On my HAN the printer shows up in Windows as a shared printer and works fine as such.

When setting up the printer from MD 7.2, set it up as a SMB printer. Give it the ip address, NETBIOS name of the e-smith box, username, password and queue (printer name). Select the appropriate printer driver, and away you go.

Unless you've set up NIS and NFS on your e-smith box, treat it as an NT/2000/98 workgroup server and you're on your way in either Linux/Unix or Windows/BeOS/OS/2.

Don

[huw]

Re: printing

I have a Dlink DP101 print server and it is a LRP type so linux has no problems, it also does AppleTalk so the mac has no problems, LRP for win is also supplied (or can be downloaded form Dlink) so thats ok too.  See next (well somewhere) reply for printer SMB (wot e-smith does) stuff in linux.  I used 'mount -t smbfs...' etc. to get at I-bays from linux.

Huw (the anti moaner)

[Ed]

Personally, I think it is perfect (almost)

e-Smith and others have done a lot of work producing
this great product.  If it does not meet your needs
may be this is not a product for you.  Anyone can always
use the RedHat install to do exactly what they want
(Shell, own IPChains, No ftp problems, etc).

I personally want this "paranoid" approach to the file server.
(Just look at the news with all the breakins.  I
don't want to waste my time trying to recover from a
break in).

For documentation, esmith has created a great document.
Over 200 Pages with pictures for the user to use.
Checkout many of the other projects - Most have none!

Finally, if anyone sees a lack in the product, it's really
easy to solve.  Either write the document or develope
a package.  Problem gone!  That is the GNU way.

[Ervin Jakab]

Ed,

It seems you have no mobile users at all, so you cannot understand me.

I admire the e-smith package; it's a nice interface but not too much more. I have the feeling that somebody tries to reinvent the wheel when about config files. I hate the FTP problems (everybody's complaining about that), their attitude towards people with different views, the fact that I cannot change my password remotely, not even by https and so on.

I don't accept the explanation that it was made to hide details. You can say that it hides and removes essential details from the user; I prefer the Webmin kind of looking to a system, if one is too dummy to read the conf files.

Yes, it was my mistake to move my users on e-smith. Yes, I will use another distro from now on. Yes, I think e-smith is made for people who run home or dial-up networks, small business but nothing serious. I am new to Linux, but I feel like I was looking to a Windows program menu with a lot of essential options missing, so I prefer the conf files or the Webmin kind of looking at them.

I respect open-source programmers a lot. But e-smith is a niche product, and it was my mistake that I did not realize that.

So I am disappointed. Shoot me!

[Lowell]

Face it - E-Smith is a well thought out product, that fits a nitch that most other companies wouldn't have even taken on the project.  Simple to complex, the server is so versitle the newbe to the senior IT can use this product to fill many gaps.  With 4 E-Smith boxes in place, none of the admins I help have much to complain about when we chat.

Maybe E-smith isn't for you.  But it is for thousands of others.

[Andrei]

OK uninstall the server and use another product. It's that simple! I totally understand that you paid lot's of money for it! How about some suggestions for making the product better instead of whining like most folks who use this product and are upset because "Oh I can't tweek this and Oh it can't do that."

Uninstall and pass the CD on to someone who will appreciate it!

Geez! Some of you folks kill me!

[Jules]

<:::Thinking we need to lose some of the windows goupies who don't know how to change something because its not point and click and then whine on a public board because their taste/needs are different::::>

Work it out or move on people. You DO have a choice.