Topic: sme 5.0 really e-smith 4.1.3

[John Goodwin]

Hi everyone,

I just finished reading through the sme 5 manual, and my only reaction at this point is disappointment.  I was expecting more functionality or capabilities in the base product, and looking at whats in the manual, it appears the only new functionality on any substance is all tied to the commercial servicelink product.  Its pretty clear that what was e-smith is now aXon, and new functionality in the mitel version of e-smith will all be commercially oriented (why not just by redhat).  I have been using e-smith 4.1.2 since early summer and I think its a GREAT product.  I hate to see these changes since this makes me now look for a new distro once again since I don't have the deep pockets to pay for servicelink.  Oh well, I guess I'll see what happens with aXon.  Anyone know of any other distro's that are based on or offer similar functionality and usability as E-smith.

Thanks,
John G.

[John Helms]

I haven't seen the new version yet, its downloading as I type. I've been a E-Smith supporter since the beginning but I am afraid I have to somewhat agree with your assesment. Initially the price was in the $50 range (cost to resellers) and the product was perfectly positioned for the SOHO market. I was able to compete pricewise with products of a similar nature such DLink residential gateways and such. Then the cost moved up to $200.00 per copy (again to resellers) and I was able to squeek by on some sales. Now the cost to resellers has jumped to $385.00 per copy. (correct me if i'm wrong) That price plus the "servicelink" costs and partner costs have pushed E-Smith from a cost effective SOHO product to a product more targeted to an enterprise situation, at least in cost since very few small offices could come close to affording it now. As well it has become so costly that resellers who sell to that SOHO market have no chance of really competing with the flood of software and hardware available for broadband connections.
The above plus some "unusual" responses to security questions on these boards have left me heading for the sidelines to take a wait and see approach on where E-Smith is going. One good thing about Open Source is that it tends to keep the companies involved in it honest. If E-Smith/Mitel strays too far from its roots there will be several other companies who will try to fill its spot
Kim, if you are still reading these posts, thanks for all your help in the past, it was REALLY appreciated. As always I wish you guys well.

[ac]

Your points are well taken, especially now that we have Linux-based gateways with hubs built into modems (for small businesses, who might have tried e-smith on a hand-me-down computer).

Of course, if LAN server functions are required, such customers might try e-smith, but they might also try Windows peer-to-peer networking, using their fastest computer as server.

The -least- I was expecting to find here was a FAX server, and that doesn't seem to be in this version at all...

Finally, I was VERY disappointed to see that - somehow - a product release had to be (by design? or incompetence?) made with the need to run Update One...

Sorry, folks, that's just not good enough!

[Low]

Of course, one could stay with 4.1.2, if there was someone that would support 4.1.2 and help provide any updates to serious vulnerabilties - or are we jumping to conclusions?

[Noah]

John Helms wrote:
...
>Now the cost to
> resellers has jumped to $385.00 per copy. (correct me if i'm
> wrong) That price plus the "servicelink" costs and partner
> costs have pushed E-Smith from a cost effective SOHO product

I don't think you are being fair in your assessment.  Anyone can still get SME 5 (without ServiceLink) for the low, low price of $0.00!  I don't think there is anything stopping you from charging a customer, say, $100 to install and setup a server and provide some support (well, unless there is something in your partnership agreement restricting this, but that's a whole different story).  I know lots of people (myself included) who have been running e-smith servers for more than a year and have never needed any support that wasn't otherewise freely available.  

Based on what I've seen,  I think the prices for support and SeriveLink are quite reasonable.  And as long as the zero cost, zero support option is still available, I don't think there is much to complain about.


Noah

[Scott Smith]

Noah wrote:
>
> John Helms wrote:
> ...
> >Now the cost to
> > resellers has jumped to $385.00 per copy. (correct me if i'm
> > wrong) That price plus the "servicelink" costs and partner
> > costs have pushed E-Smith from a cost effective SOHO product
>
> I don't think you are being fair in your assessment.  Anyone
> can still get SME 5 (without ServiceLink) for the low, low
> price of $0.00!

Also, the pricing for annual server support has not changed. Retail is still $595, and I'm assuming partners get the same cut of that. What HAS changed, as I understand it, is that you must first purchase at least three months of ServiceLink for $595 BEFORE you can purchase just server support. So first year costs are more like $1200, but year 2+ costs are the same as before. (Mitel, please correct me if I've got that wrong.)

My personal opinion is that this is not a good scheme. Server support should be available as a first choice option. However, I can understand Mitel's desire to get people to try ServiceLink first, but the current method does create a bit of a hurdle for smaller offices. An alternate approach might have been to make the first year of server support $795 and include 2 months of ServiceLink with that, and year 2+ would be $595 as it is now. That would give folks a taste of Service Link, without raising the bar quite so high. IMHO

Scott

[Noah]

Scott Smith wrote:
> Also, the pricing for annual server support has not changed.
> Retail is still $595, and I'm assuming partners get the same
> cut of that. What HAS changed, as I understand it, is that
> you must first purchase at least three months of ServiceLink
> for $595 BEFORE you can purchase just server support. So
> first year costs are more like $1200, but year 2+ costs are
> the same as before. (Mitel, please correct me if I've got
> that wrong.)

Hmm, I was under the impression that $595 got you one year of support and 3 months of ServiceLink.  There used to be a detailed pricing sheet on the company site, but I can't find it anymore.

Noah

[Manuel Lazo]

But, What's the difference? I see both versions the same features, but in version 5 (correct me if I'm wrong) I see there is no VPN support, only with servicelink (IPSEC), so is there a good reason to try the new version??

CU !

[loopz]

I also generally would like to have everything in life for free but I can understand that mitel would like to have something in return for their efforts. And SME is indeed their targetmarket. Suse also charges for their e-mail server

I hope this virus thing works out, If you look at the cost of getting a good mailgate scanner.

[John Helms]

"I don't think you are being fair in your assessment. Anyone can still get SME 5 (without ServiceLink) for the low, low price of $0.00!"

I am obviously aware of that since I did state I was downloading it while I was posting. I was speaking as a person who both implemented and resold E-Smith for a long time. Its a lot easier to sell a product that comes with an official disk, manual and container than a disk that says E-Smith written with a scripto and the words Maxell above that.
My point is that the focus has moved from an affordable, sellable solution for small offices to one more targeted toward large offices, say one with far more users than any customers offices I have access to in my area.

"I don't think there is much to complain about."

I wasn't complaining, I was just stating facts.

[John Goodwin]

Hi all,

I've been watching the responses and it seems like a lot of people have similar thoughts.  I have also seen some comments saying that this is not a fair assessment.  The biggest problem I have is that this is supposed to be a new version, not a dot release.  WIth a new version, I expect increased functionality in the base product.  The only significant new functionality I see with this release (although I have not done my install yet, I'm going by what I have read in the manual) is commercial.  If you look at redhat for example, a new release for them typically includes new base functionality that is freely available in their downloadable ISO bundled with increased commercial functionality.  I think a balance has to be struck in order to maintain a strong developer/user community while still allowing Mitel to make the profit that they should off a very good product.  E-smith has distinguished itself in my eyes from the rest of the distro world by providing a distribution that is specifically geared to the small office and home user.  The service bundles really are not targeted at this install base in my opinion based on price.

Thanks,
John

[benoit brosseau]

i rellay agree whit you e-smith is a perfect solution for home base network a small office and i rellay don't think it will have a market in the big offices or isp maket like cobalt have. if you look at the price of this plus a good server to run it the price will be the same than a cobalt raq unit which is back by Sun an got bettre option for the big corporation. if the price was right i would buy my copie right now to show my support and get the 15 or so small office i have istall it in to buy it to but at that price it is just not possible.

i don't see a bright future for e-smith and i don't think a fork in 2 version is gona help. i will stick to 4.1.2 and wait to see what the developper comunity will do.

excuse my spelling i'm french.

[Noah]

John Helms wrote:
> Its a lot easier to sell a product that comes with an
> official disk, manual and container than a disk that says
> E-Smith written with a scripto and the words Maxell above that.

This is a very, very good point.  The direction e-smith seems to be taking (and this started before the Mitel buyout) is that home and very small business users are not going to be a revenue stream.  It still surprises me that they do not offer an inexpensive package (say $100) that included limited support.  From reading posts here and on the mailing lists, I know there are a lot of people who would pay this if only so they could say they were supporting the product and to have an official disk and documentation.  Far be it for me to criticize someone else's business plan, but I think they are missing out on significant income.

Noah

[Darrell May]

I have not been on the phorum for some time being busy on devinfo lately.  The comments on this thread are echoed by many.  On both sides as you will find many that agree with Mitel's new direction/pricing and just as many that do not.

Thankfully there are choices and opportunites for all.

Many feel Mitel is doing the right thing so SME5 and ServiceLink works just fine for them and fits their budget.  These people should contact their closest authorized Mitel partner for product and support.

The aXon team released their own version, based on e-smith but using the latest and greatest.  Drop by and give them a visit at http://www.axonlinux.org.

For those wishing alternative Mitel support options, check out my site at: http://myEZserver.com.

Again, choice and opportunities for all.

Regards,

Darrell

[Low]

I hope this thread doesn't stop here.  If you would take the time to look at what Darrell just said, you will find great wealth in those words, and in his hints.  I know many many people in our local LUG that use the E-Smith distro as a base for what they do.  Local Non-Profit groups are supported by what the LUG does.  Keep the wealth spreading!  Not all business has to be for great profit.

Publicly, Thanks Darrell!

Lowell