Topic: How to install an unsupported package?

[raid517]

Hi, OK, I know this is going to sound like a horribly n00bish question. But that's possibly because I am a bit of a n00b.

However I was wondering is it possible to install Webmin in CentOS? I ask as it doesn't seem to be available on any of the official repositories and really while the included web interface gives me very good control, it doesn't give me quite the level of fine control I want. The same is also True to an extent with Webmin however, in that the Web Interface of SME Server offers many facilities that WebMin lacks.

The ideal set up I feel would be an integration/compromise between both of these.

I asking also (and here I will show my n00bishness) because I am not certain how to go about downloading and installing WebMin in CentOS without a GUI, or a Web Browser. Before you shout at me however, please be aware that I am installing and configuring SME server for a charity who desperately need a facility like this in order to organize the several machines they have more effectively and to allow them to focus more of their time helping people in genuine need.

Also while I have used Linux for a while, it's always been with a GUI and a web browser - and I have never used an RPM distro before at all.

So given this, I hope you will forgive also if I ask once it's installed, how do I ensure that it gets started after every reboot?

Thanks in advance!

GJ

[mmccarn]

I think you can install webmin --- but most of what it changes is going to conflict with the SME template system.  So you'll be able to change things, but they'll change back the next time you do 'signal-event post-upgrade'...

If you build a list of settings that is not controlled by the templating system, you could use webmin to manage those settings... but so far all I've found that isn't templated are some of the qpsmtpd plugins and grub.conf...

[raem]

raid517

The general recommendation is NOT to install webmin on a sme server due to the serious configuration conflicts that can ocur.
Many system events (not just post-upgrade) will change config settings made by webmin, so don't use it.

A good compatible alternative is the sme7admin package from
http://sme.firewall-services.com

[raem]

raid517

There are other very useful tools that put a panel into the GUI server manager eg
print queue monitor
mail queue monitor
& more if you look & search & ask

[raid517]

Well in any case, it is slightly frustrating that some or a lot) of the advanced/fine tuning functionality of WebMin is missing from the standard SME Server Web Administration package.

As I said, a much better solution anyway, would be if much (if not all) of the combined functionality of both of these could be combined into a single package.

Webmin maintains the KISS mentality - while affording much more specific levels of control and fine tuning than the current server configutation application does on its own.

[raem]

raid517

>.....some or a lot) of the advanced/fine tuning functionality of WebMin is missing
> from the standard SME Server Web Administration package.

You should submit a New Feature Request in bugzilla.
If the developers agree with you, it will probably be a case of funding being needed for the amount of development work needed to integrate webmin (if it's possible that is).


> Webmin maintains the KISS mentality

sme server maintains the KISS principle, and it's design scope keeps the technicalities of configuration away from end user/administrators, by only having what is typically needed by small to medium enterprises in a server manager GUI panel.
ie
turn on ftp and the appropriate services are enabled and ports opened in the firewall,
turn on secure remote access and again the required sevices are enabled and ports opened in the firewall.
etc etc

Direct control of the firewall has been deliberately left out of the server manager for the same reasons, to end users it's not necessary and they would only end up tweaking settings that create security risks due to their own ignorance and foolish choices in configuration.
The firewall has very complex (& interdependent) rule sets in place that could easily be corrupted by a knowledgable enough well meaning technician who is ignorant of that compexity and the reasons for it being that way.

The server as designed is very secure, and the developers don't want to unleash tools that would easily allow this strong security model to be corrupted.

Of course there is virtually unlimited control available of all system settings via command prompt, either directly or via editing custom templates. See the Developers Manual re custom templates.
The underlying code also caters for additional scenarios (beyond those offered in the GUI server manager) with specific db commands, which are relatively simple to implement.

There are many settings that are very easily implemented by these generic statements
db databasename setprop servicename key value
expand template
restart service

Read the FAQ
http://wiki.contribs.org/SME_Server:Documentation:FAQ

& the Technical manual
http://wiki.contribs.org/SME_Server:Documentation:Technical_Manual

& the Howtos
http://wiki.contribs.org/Category:Howto
(many are hosted elsewhere too so search)

and examine the code to discover what these db settings are.
For clues use
rpm -ql packagename

You should also have a very slow read & a re-read (or two or three) of the Developers Manual (aka devguide)
http://wiki.contribs.org/SME_Server:Documentation:Developers_Manual

There's nothing stopping you from building your own server manager panel to implement additional features you think are missing/desirable.
You will need to learn how of course, but the devguide gives basic worked examples, and you can hack existing & other peoples code to make life easier.

[raem]

raid517

By the way, have you installed the sme7admin package and those other add on server manager tools I suggested ?
They add a good bit of usefulness to the server manager and are perhaps what you are looking for anyway.

[raid517]

Yes well I am familiar with the old mantra that 'if you don't like it, fix it on your own. ' However I have never said that I didn't like it. I do think it's unfortunate that in many such cases there is almost a need to qualify every thing that is said with a statement that - of course I am grateful to the developers for their already considerable effort. I do wish that just once this might be taken as read.

However as I work full time in the voluntary sector - am by no means a programmer, have limited time and limited insight into such matters - and am purely attempting to do something that is in this case in many ways outside the normal range of my abilities - which if I am successful may directly help a large number of vulnerable young people in need - any positive contribution towards a hacking effort is likely to be very minimal indeed.

My comment wasn't intended as a criticism - only an observation that WebMin contains perhaps many more options and a greater level of control than probably even the included web interface does - and that even though it does this if anything, it takes the KISS mentality to an even deeper level - and that in an ideal world, if I were a programmer, or a magician or if perhaps I could find an enchanted wishing well, the best solution would probably be a good combination of both of these.

In any Case WebMin offers far more functionality than simple control over the firewall. You are correct that this is a feature that it is easy to live without. Some others are probably less easy - although no doubt SME Server will still remain very usable without them.

PS

I just caught your subsequent post. No - but I will install these and see how they fair. Thanks.

[kruhm]

"I do wish that just once this might be taken as read."
ok

"that some or a lot) of the advanced/fine tuning functionality of WebMin is missing from the standard SME Server Web Administration package."
What functionality were you specifically looking for? Give an example.

"it takes the KISS mentality to an eve deeper level"
How so? Give an example. I don't use WEBMIN so I'm interested in hearing.

[raid517]

Well if you don't mind me saying so, if you can the best way to resolve this (if you have another Linux machine) is simply to look it over, or go to the web site and read the docs, or view the screenshots.

WebMin has far too many features to list here in a single post - many of which would almost undoubtedly be useful (if not vital) in enabling perhaps at least some degree of better administration of SME server.

Install it and check it out! It will do no harm and will change noting if you simply look at it.

[kruhm]

"Well if you don't mind me saying so..."
I'm trying to get your opinion which isn't found in any documentation or test box. It's OK if you don't want to give it. I and the others will simply move on and help others.

"best way to resolve this (if you have another Linux machine) is simply to look it over, or go to the web site and read the docs, or view the screenshots."
The same can be said with any distro, including SMESERVER. Everything is customizable. Ray was kind enough to give you the links.

One core difference between the 2 is that WEBMIN tries to read the config file first & then edit it secondly. SMESERVER rather dictates what the config file is going to be with valid options. Once everything is setup correctly, this brilliant design results in SMESERVER having a reliability advantage. A huge difference when you're talking about running any type of business (for profit or otherwise).

[raid517]

Yes well it's not about the technical superiority of one over the other. Sorry I didn't mean to make this into some kind of proverbial pissing contest - and I certainly didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings.

I purely commented on the physical feature set - and that there seems to be far more in-depth (although still very easy to manage) options in WEBMIN than are provided by SMEServer - although clearly WEBMIN lacks several features that are vital for the proper administration of SMEServer too.

There is no need for this kind of defensive posturing - since it is simply pure fantasy at this point to say that combining the features of both - while keeping the technically superior aspects of SMEserver and it's web configuration tool would in my own view be really quite awesome.

Again it's not about which is 'better', such arguments are silly and quite pointless anyway. I merely commented that having used Webmin on a number of occasions in the past, it really did seem to have a wide range of really cool features.

Anyway aren't you guys all supposed to be in the same boat together? What's with this dissing other developers anyway? Can't both applications be equally cool and have their own individual merits?

[bpivk]

raid517 don't be so defencive. kruhm want's to know what are you missing in SME. That's all. Sme uses it's own interface so this topic is getting us nowhere fast but it would be great if you'd tell us what are you missing in sme. Not all the features that webmin has only the features that you're missing.

[CharlieBrady]

I purely commented on the physical feature set - and that there seems to be far more in-depth (although still very easy to manage) options in WEBMIN than are provided by SMEServer  ...

Yes, it's true, webmin does provide a many, many, more opportunities for you to misconfigure your system. SMEserver's interface is deliberately sparse. We try to make it very hard for people to misconfigure their systems. webmin also has a bewildering set of features. We choose not to bewilder.

If you prefer to use webmin, go ahead and use it.

If you use webmin and server manager on the same system, expect problems.

If you want server-manager to be more like webmin, then you are welcome to try to make it so.

[raid517]

Yes and this is exactly why it is pointless trying to talk to anyone sensibly about such matters.

I am not completely incapable of taking advice on board that using Webmin with SME will result in serious conflicts. That point was already made several posts ago.

But the open hostility in simply comparing the two is neither justified nor welcome.

Why you should feel that such an innocuous comparison was so threatening is genuinely beyond me.

To be frank as I get older I have less and less time and much less patience for the frequently extremely misplaced puritanical and also often highly counterproductive attitude of many Linux users.

[raem]

raid517

I re-read all the posts in this thread, and the only agressive, defensive & hostile posts are yours !

Every other poster gave you good common sense matter of fact advice in a polite fashion, coming from a good understanding of sme & how it works, and advising you of problems you WILL have using webmin with sme.

There were no posts that said webmin is no good or that system A is better than system B, or that accused you of attacking anyone or suggesting you needed to apologize or even anything like that !

They all said webmin & sme server are not compatible with each other and you are therefore not advised to use webmin.
They even enquired of you for further specific information re why you thought webmin was so good & what features particularly were missing from sme that webmin had, that you apparently needed to have.
You were even advised to lodge a bug request for a New Feature Request as that IS the way to get something into sme base code.

The only lack of sensibility I read is yours, in your attacks on other posters.


> To be frank as I get older I have less and less time and much less patience....

Yes that is obvious.


>... for the frequently extremely misplaced puritanical and also often highly counterproductive attitude of many Linux users.

The only "attitude" I see in this thread is in your posts.
No one rubbished you or webmin, no one said not to use webmin, we explained why it doesn't work well with sme & advised you not to use it with sme.
After all that's what you were asking about in the first post where you said:
"I know this is going to sound like a horribly n00bish question. But that's possibly because I am a bit of a n00b."
which you further emphasised with
"and here I will show my n00bishness"

Advice was given as if you were a noob, and now you are purporting to be all knowledgable and even blasting us for giving advice you didn't like.

As you said you're getting older, so learn to receive advice in the friendly manner it was given, before you die !

[CharlieBrady]

Why you should feel that such an innocuous comparison was so threatening is genuinely beyond me.

I didn't. You made that up.

To be frank as I get older I have less and less time and much less patience for the frequently extremely misplaced puritanical and also often highly counterproductive attitude of many Linux users.

And I get less and less tolerant of people who complain about free advice.

[raid517]

Yes, it's true, webmin does provide a many, many, more opportunities for you to misconfigure your system.

Sorry but it's the tone of these responses that I find unsettling.

Webmin will NOT screw up your system. It may screw up your SME system and cause serious conflicts - but there are other systems and other platforms where it is a perfectly usable and respectable application. You do seem to make it sound like it is a contest over which package is superior and which is not. The fact is however that they are probably at least equally applicable and equally valuable depending on the platform in use.

webmin also has a bewildering set of features

Again this seems like a very specific and deliberate choice of words. WebMin may have a large number of features - but they are far from being 'bewildering'. Indeed the philosophy behind WebMin is very similar to that of SME - in that it presents a very KISS friendly type interface with several very clearly laid out options.

If you want server-manager to be more like webmin, then you are welcome to try to make it so.

Once more this simply sounds somewhat elitist, first because it seems to imply that I am in someway disparaging or hostile towards SME (I am not) and also because I took careful pains in a previous post to try to point out that I am not a programmer. Indeed I will re-post what I said here for good measure:

However as I work full time in the voluntary sector - am by no means a programmer, have limited time and limited insight into such matters - and am purely attempting to do something that is in this case in many ways outside the normal range of my abilities - which if I am successful may directly help a large number of vulnerable young people in need - any positive contribution towards a hacking effort is likely to be very minimal indeed.

So why would you re-post a comment that if I didn't like it I should fix it on my own when I spent half of my previous posts making the best effort I could to make it clear that I was not saying I didn't like it - and that an ordinary mere mortal non programmer I lacked the skills and ability to 'fix it on my own' in the way that you (have again) suggested? Surely you might be able to see why that might be a little frustrating?

[raid517]

And I get less and less tolerant of people who complain about free advice.

Good advice is probably something along the lines of

It's probably not a good idea to use WebMin as it may cause serious conflicts with a number of existing packages in SME.

Not so good advice is probably along the lines of:

Don't use Webmin with SME because it causes conflicts, is over-complicated and just plumb sucks - and the included software in SME is just WAY times more superior anyway.

It's all about striking a tone dear boy. The first comment is simply factual, reasonable and entirely acceptable. The second is opinion based, somewhat biased and a little loaded. Which I wonder out of these two do you feel your comments were closer to?

[raem]

raid517

Get back on track.
Are you really interested in learning about sme ?
The way you are "talking" here is just alienating yourself in this community, especially when you attack Charlie & others with a false premise.

Take on board the good advice that has been given to you in good faith & stop placing your own value judgements on the written words of posters.
They are all factual statements & have no emotive content (tone as you call it), on which you seem to be placing so much importance.

You are prone to gross exaggeration !

I read all the posters comments yet again and I see nothing of what you claim has been said.

If you are not interested in learning about sme & just want to attack people, then please go away !

[raid517]

I am happy to stay on track. Providing there isn't any more of this pointless comparing and saying that one application is necessarily better than another.

As I said, it just seems as though what I did say was being a little misrepresented.

What I did say was that Webmin has a large number of very useful and very easy to understand and manage facilities. What I did not say was that SME was in any way inferior in this regard. What I did say was that (since I am not a programmer and was simply fantasizing out loud) that it would be neat if SME included a configuration tool that offered the best of both worlds (while again retaining the technically superior approach of SME) - but what I also did not say was that I was by any means whatsoever unappreciative or ungrateful for the very great efforts that the developers have made to date.

I'm sorry if I seem a little harsh, but as I said I didn't quite see the reason why there was a need to repeat something that had already very clearly been said only a short while ago.

The original advice not to install WebMin was both very clear, very friendly and very well reasoned. I took the advice on board and subsequently opted not to do so. The rest as I said was simply an exercise in thinking out loud - and was probably intended to be not much more than this.

Anyway I don't even know what it is were are supposed to be getting heated over here? The question is answered in my eyes. Don't install it. Also there is unlikely to be a combination of WebMin and the SME Web configuration app - because (beyond personally fantasising that there was such an application) as I am not a programmer  and as there is little interest elsewhere in making it happen either, it is literally pointless to continue to discuss it.

[raem]

raid517

> ... pointless comparing and saying that one application is necessarily better than another.

You are STILL exaggerating/making it up. Please quote the exact phrase & poster who said that, as I certainly cannot see that post anywhere in this thread.

[raid517]

Yes, it's true, webmin does provide a many, many, more opportunities for you to misconfigure your system.

Seems like a good example. Why say it when a) it has already been clearly established that it is not a good idea to use webmin with SME and b) when the subsequent discussion was not about actually using it rather than a slight philosophical muse about the possible merits of an application that combined the best aspects of both Webmin and the SME configuration utility into a single package - an application that since it does not and is probably unlikely to exist poses no risk either?

Why issue such a stark warning about something that it has already been clearly explained may prove damaging and also about something else that has no basis in reality anyway?

Not that it matters very much, because I see no clear reason why you would wish to continue the discussion beyond this point anyway?

[raem]