Koozali.org: home of the SME Server

Firewall - is there a GUI front end for SME

Offline arne

  • *****
  • 1,116
  • +0/-4
Re: Firewall - is there a GUI front end for SME
« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2007, 03:21:00 PM »
Thanks for nice and friendly comment.

If you try to dicuss anything about firewalls on the contrib forum, comments will very easy be like this:

Quote
Arne, your word count on this topic was 4142 - just imagine if that was SME code

The underlaying fact is that the SME Server installation does not contain a firewall at all.

Because there does not exist any SME Server firewall at all it is rather difficult to break dependies or destroy anything that at the first time does not exist at all.

The firewalling of the SME Server is done by configuring some basic functions that is built into the Linux kernel.

This is done by default by running a configuration script. (/etc/rc.d/init.d/masq)

The SME Server contains this configuration script and some automated routines for modyfying this configuration script.

You can compare it with an autopilot on an airplane. "The firewall autopilot."

Neither the pilot or the autopilot does the fying themself, they only gives some instructions to the airplane (in this case the Linux kernel) that does the flying.

As far as I can se there is nothing special abot the firewalling done by the SME Server at all. It's just standard Linux packet filtering anno year 2000/2001. If one compare tne SME Server rev 5.x, 6.x, 7.x i belive that the firewalling itself is basically much the same. There has been few changes and the configuration and datatransport trough the Linux kernel is much the same.

If there have been developed any major changes it would be interresting to know.

To applying a reviced firewall "tuning" or "configuration" to the Linux can be done in two different ways:
1. One can do som redisign of minor adjustments to the "autopilot".
2. You can leve it as an option to teporarely turn the autopilot "off" and leave the controls to the Pilot.

The option of turning off the Autopilot and to do the manuall controll has actually allways been there trough sme 5.x, 6.x, 7.x It is as I belive only a question of using this oportunity.

When developing some firewall tools this tool could work against the autopilot or it could contain the operunity for the user to tell the autopilot: "You are swithced off, I am now flying, my controls".

The cost of building in a effective option of "My controls" should be only a small fraction of the cost of modifying up the autopilot. (Lets say a factor as an example 1:1000)

A configuration tools could actually contain those "pushbuttons": "Autoconfiguration", "Restricted manual control", and "Full manual control".

To design the perfect autopiilot you wil have to do and perform flying and then in the end build in the experiences from all your nice and bad trips int the automated control.

If you can not discuss the flying itself (the firewalling) you can not do the perfect automated control either as there will be no nice and bad flying experiences to bulid into the system.

Except for being much simpler and much more easy to devlop a manual control can also have the option of being operated safer and more restrictive than an automated control. There could also be some restriction build in so it can not tuned up to be to unsafe. A manual control could be set up with aditional security functions as an example protection for dos attach, filtering against scanning (so the firewall locks of and hides the open ports when scanned, filtering of outgoing trafic from LAN (this would be an major improvement for the over all network security)

As I will see it a SME Server with the option of having a full and finegranid control over the traffic is a much more enjoyable and useful than a SME Server that has only the option of running on the automated firewall control. 

These things could be done via a text based shell a web shell or with 2 or 3 or more network interfaces.

When you are doing "the manual control" the automated control system can run unaltered and unmodified in the background to be there as a backup control that can be switched on at any time.

If you try to suggest something new or inovative about firewalling and SME Server feedbacks will not allways be only positive, and discusuons about the firewalling itself very easy turns over to be a discussion of anything else.

To avoid discussions that will only produce a lot of words that might not be listened to (4242 from me now ?), I will try to do the project as an independent contrib from a new inependent web site http://www.linuxfirewalls.info/

Any info of what negative things that might happen when you take over the manual control would be positive as it then can be built into the contrib.

I just want to have an SME Server that does the optimal job, and for me this also includes full control of the firewall, the ability to compile sourcecode and a Asterisk server installation. I do not need a 3'rd network adapter, and some configuration tool for this, but I think I will try to do it as well, just for the fun and joy of doing it.

As I would see it a detailed and finegraded control of the firewall is the major homemade improvement of my Asterisk server just now.

For me this is only a project based on fun, and the enjoyment of doing the things, and if could be usable for anybody else it's just OK.
......

Offline byte

  • *
  • 2,183
  • +2/-0
Re: Firewall - is there a GUI front end for SME
« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2007, 05:43:29 PM »
The underlaying fact is that the SME Server installation does not contain a firewall at all.

Wrong. The SME Server does provide a firewall.

Quote
As far as I can se there is nothing special abot the firewalling done by the SME Server at all. It's just standard Linux packet filtering anno year 2000/2001. If one compare tne SME Server rev 5.x, 6.x, 7.x i belive that the firewalling itself is basically much the same. There has been few changes and the configuration and datatransport trough the Linux kernel is much the same.

Wrong again the firewall has changed, but I don't have as much time to type as you do to tell you what the changes are.

Quote
If there have been developed any major changes it would be interresting to know.

Then I'd suggest trawling though the dev list and bug tracker.

Quote
I just want to have an SME Server that does the optimal job, and for me this also includes full control of the firewall, the ability to compile sourcecode and a Asterisk server installation.

SME Server already does a good job and securely, your words of "ability to compile by source code" are bad as anyone would know you never have build/compile tools on your production server.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2007, 05:45:04 PM by byte »
--[byte]--

Have you filled in a Bug Report over @ http://bugs.contribs.org ? Please don't wait to be told this way you help us to help you/others - Thanks!

Offline arne

  • *****
  • 1,116
  • +0/-4
Re: Firewall - is there a GUI front end for SME
« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2007, 10:40:46 PM »
If the SME Server contains a firewall I would be courious to now which one that is.

I thinkt that the only packetfilter firewall that is there is the one supplied by Netfilter that is a part of the Linux kernel.

Because SME server has the Linux kernel it also has the firewall, but it does not supply any other packet firewall or an application level firewall by itself. Does it ?

It could be that it has some configuration options for some server functions like sshd and ftpd to prevent or allow access from external clients. I would guess it is like that, but I have not checked it.

The reason why I am curious abot this questions is because I am working at a firewall conrib that will do some new things just now.

I haven't have to much time for testing but it looks like it will come a new firewall setup option in the near future that will do the things for me that I at last I was dreaming about during all the years with SME 5.X, 6X, 7X. A third card will also be an option even though I actually do not need it to much myself. There will also be some simple web based configuration tool.

I think arguing in this forum will not help at all, but hopefully some "load thinking" wil give a result that can be used. Actually I am using it myself already, and it is just the SME Server I allways wanted to have. If anyone else wants to use the contrib they can do. Will be posted on this address  http://www.linuxfirewalls.info/
« Last Edit: October 13, 2007, 10:46:57 PM by arne »
......

Offline CharlieBrady

  • *
  • 6,918
  • +3/-0
Re: Firewall - is there a GUI front end for SME
« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2007, 03:07:17 AM »
If the SME Server contains a firewall I would be courious to now which one that is.

You know very well what it is.

Quote
I thinkt that the only packetfilter firewall that is there is the one supplied by Netfilter that is a part of the Linux kernel.

Yes, of course.

Quote
It could be that it has some configuration options for some server functions like sshd and ftpd to prevent or allow access from external clients.

Yes, of course there are.

Quote
I think arguing in this forum will not help at all, ...

Indeed, but you keep doing it.

Offline p-jones

  • *
  • 594
  • +0/-0
Re: Firewall - is there a GUI front end for SME
« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2007, 05:17:27 AM »
Arne

The merits of combining a firewall with the main server are limited. Go google a bit and you will understand what I mean.

After giving consideration to the overall concept of what SME is about, ie the bigger picture, what is provided in SME is MORE than adequate.

If you want a full featured firewall, or maybe I should say a more-featured firewall, you should go to IPCop or Smoothwall. There you will find the same Linux Kernel features from 200/2001 that you have refered to, with a more extensive rule set and a GUI interface. Designed and dedicated to just that task- A firewall.

If you want specialised features, you need a specialist product...
...

Offline gbentley

  • *****
  • 482
  • +0/-0
  • Forum Lurker
    • Earth
Re: Firewall - is there a GUI front end for SME
« Reply #50 on: October 14, 2007, 11:57:35 AM »
As an aside, I am constantly surprised at the increase in the wealth of features provided within relatively cheap ADSL routers these days, particularly within the firewall and security features. Even a £40 router can have Packet Filtering, Stateful Inspection, DoS Attack Prevention, Custom Rulesets, Stealth mode etc - and probably a Linux Kernel :wink:
"If you don't know what you want, you end up with a lot you don't."

Offline raem

  • *
  • 3,972
  • +4/-0
Re: Firewall - is there a GUI front end for SME
« Reply #51 on: October 14, 2007, 12:46:31 PM »
gbentley

Quote
..and probably a Linux Kernel

Which gets outdated & buggy, whereas the Linux kernel in sme server gets updated regularly.
That way, when using sme server in gateway mode (with the firewall functionality enabled), the firewall kernel remains up to date.
...

Offline gbentley

  • *****
  • 482
  • +0/-0
  • Forum Lurker
    • Earth
Re: Firewall - is there a GUI front end for SME
« Reply #52 on: October 14, 2007, 01:30:07 PM »
Last two routers I bought you could do firmware updates on :)
"If you don't know what you want, you end up with a lot you don't."

Offline judgej

  • *
  • 375
  • +0/-0
Re: Firewall - is there a GUI front end for SME
« Reply #53 on: October 15, 2007, 01:54:58 PM »
If the SME Server contains a firewall I would be courious to now which one that is.

It's not a case of 'which one'. You have described the setup - the SME Server provides a firewall function for itself and for the network. You don't need an RPM with a big label "ACME Firewall" in order to provide that function.

Yes, it would be nice to have a finer level of control over how the firewall is configured and works. It would be nice to be able to enter IP ranges to block, to get reports on various types of attacks, to be able to set ranges of allowed IP addresses for certain ports. It would all be nice, but someone has to specify the requirements, someone has to code it up, and someone has to test it. Until that happens, we have a nice default "works out the box" firewall that is okay for the purpose it set out to solve.
-- Jason

Offline jfarschman

  • *
  • 406
  • +0/-0
Re: Firewall - is there a GUI front end for SME
« Reply #54 on: October 15, 2007, 06:46:59 PM »
54 posts....!!!

  Wow!

  Consider this.  Most problems with security are due to an administrator who poorly understands the concepts of security and applies firewall rules improperly.  :shock:  Check out the stats on security breaches some time.  Sometimes its the fault of a kernel or a firewall, but the vast majority of breaches occur do to administrative mistakes.

  SME takes care of security for such users.  This is why I use it.  SME is brilliant at taking away user mistakes.

  If you need a hand with something more complicated because the only way to configure it is through the command line, then you probably fall into the 'poorly understands' category and should consider getting some advice/help from one of the developers.  Paid help.

  They can do the work quickly, cheaply and with quality.
Jay Farschman
ICQ - 60448985
jay@hitechsavvy.com