Topic: Backup systems that dont work

[steve1084]

Have now tried all the freely available backup options that I can find for sme and not one of them can do a full backup and send it off site via FTP.  This is very frustrating.

Dar2 doesnt work properly, cant send backup offsite via ftp and wont login to local work-group computers or my local ritmo workgroup server.

Plain dar doesnt have ftp ability and wont login to my local ritmo work-group server. also doesn't do full backup of all databases or allow any options of what to backup

BackupPC is the only one that makes a full and complete backup but it also misses the mark by not having any ability to send the backup off site via ftp and also wont sent files off via the local work-group or ritmo lan server.

The standard built in backup also has NO FTP and wont login to my local work-group computers or the ritmo lan server and simply doesn't do a full backup.

It seems that dungog has cornered the market in that he is the only person who had the brains to include ftp in his backup options.  Unfortunately at $300 or $1000 I cant afford to purchase anything he has to offer and that realy sux.

I doesn't mean to be cynical but cum on people this is pathetic.  FTP should be a standard option on all backup software.

Why call it backup when it doesn't do as the name suggests.  Backup is for data recovery when everything goes stupid. Its an emergency procedure and if the backup doesn't capture all thats needed to fully restore the server back to how it was prior to the disaster then plain and simple it ain't worth having.  If all its doing is backing up the config then its just stupid and worthless.

After two weeks of trial and error with all the available backup options I am very disappointed as I have not achieved a reasonable integrated solution.

My only current solution is to use BackupPC to create the files and to then use something like "cobian backup 8" to ftp the files off site on a regular schedule.  At least cobian can do differentials and incremental on the backed up files.

To All developers

Please include FTP as part of any backup options for all future versions of SME server and associated backup systems.  It may not be the (technically) best way to backup but I guarantee that it will always work where other options fall down.

PS I also have issues with USB not working on older hardware and it doesn't solve the issue of storing backups OFF SITE.

Thanks
Steve

[psoren]

Have now tried all the freely available backup options that I can find for sme and not one of them can do a full backup and send it off site via FTP.  This is very frustrating.

I think they don't support FTP since FTP is not secure.
Use rsync instead, it's encrypted via SSH and can send only the files that differs at each backup so it also saves bandwith and time. I have used it for several years and works fine.
For MYSQL database you can make a dump file and just add it to your backup, if its not already done by the backup solution you will use.

Per

[mmccarn]

[edit]
Stupid post by stupid user withdrawn.
[/edit]

[steve1084]

Discouraging ftp is just plain stupid.  Its not the most secure but its not an open book either.  Simply allow the use of SFTP if its that big an issue.  I would rather have a backup that works than not have one just because somebody doesn't like FTP because its not the most secure method around.  Whats better, no backup or an ftp backup.  Ill choose ftp backup any day.

I'm not a coder but I am lead to believe that adding ftp to the backup systems should be very easy for coders and given that its better to have something that works than something that doesn't work I can only ask that FTP or SFTP be included as an OPTION to send backup files OFF SITE or to a local FTP server.

Most people don't want to setup an Affa box or don't have a spare box just to overcome the short comings of the current Backup systems and if the option is not built in then restore can then become a pain so it needs to be one system, not two three or four different things all strung together via command line, thats stupid and not very user friendly.

Im not opening up my sme server to ftp so where is the issue. I have learned from the howtoforge.com website how to make ftp as secure as I want it to be.

Stop this paranoia and make the backup systems user friendly and above all easy and integrated and usable.

FTP is the workhorse of the internet so PLEASE include FTP or SFTP options into ALL backup systems

[byte]

FTP is the workhorse of the internet so PLEASE include FTP or SFTP options into ALL backup systems

There may not be a FTP server in the future release(s) in case anyone may try to build a backup contrib/script.

[steve1084]

Please explain why as this sounds like complete stupidity to me

[byte]

Please explain why as this sounds like complete stupidity to me

http://bugs.contribs.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2835

Why do you think its stupid to remove it ?

[steve1084]

Because anyone running there own server uses ftp on a daily basis.  As I have stated it is the stock standard daily workhorse for any Admin or client managing or using a server environment.

If you remove it from the standard install of sme the first thing that will happen is an rpm will be created to install it and it is then more likely than ever that it will become insecure as it will be less integrated with the sme system and the setup parameters will no longer be under the control of the sme development team who would otherwise have the ability to make it secure from the get go.

[byte]

Because anyone running there own server uses ftp on a daily basis.

I don't use FTP. And I doubt many others do as it really isn't best practice. Why do you think contribs.org doesn't offer contrib users ftp access anymore!?

[p-jones]

steve1084, what other mainstream server solutions/backup solutions do have software to send backups off site via FTP ??

or don't have a spare box just to overcome the short comings of the current Backup

This being the case, a FTP option would be of little use anyway...

[benny]

Hi I agree that fading out ftp is not good. I have sme server running with approx 50 sites on it, I cant run some of my customers site on here because they manage their own sites and use ftp to do so. I have had to resort to using a cms system for those who want to manage their site. This is all well and good but they are resource hungry and I have little time to educate the users how to administer the sites using cms

[cactus]

Hi I agree that fading out ftp is not good. I have sme server running with approx 50 sites on it, I cant run some of my customers site on here because they manage their own sites and use ftp to do so. I have had to resort to using a cms system for those who want to manage their site. This is all well and good but they are resource hungry and I have little time to educate the users how to administer the sites using cms

Have you read this part of the manual about FTP: http://wiki.contribs.org/SME_Server:Documentation:Administration_Manual:Chapter11#FTP ? It says it is possible... if not a bug should be filed against the manual.

[benny]

Yes I have read that but the problem is setting users and passwords to access the ibay, setting ftp that way only gets them into the home dir. the ony way they can access their ibay is if they have the admin credentials which will expose all the ibays.
Im not proficient with sme and hesitant to install mods

[steve1084]

When it comes to using SME there are I think 2 very different types of users
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Type 1

SMB Business user who has sme server in the office with a bunch of employees and 1 or 2 websites that are all maintained by one person from the local environment or vpn.

They use shared folders and a few extras add-ons, all very minimalistic.  For this person FTP is not so important but is nevertheless still used from time to time.  Each person has workgroup and vpn access so they can download there update files to their desktop and then simply drag and drop into the ibay folder to update there cms systems.

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Type 2

Can also be a business but is likely to be a home user has 10 to 100 websites all owned and maintained by different people that need to maintain their own sites.  They all use ftp as their main tool of choice to upload and download files from their Ibay or /opt/folder.  Why because it works and it’s easy to use and fairly secure.
There may also be work-groups and other add-ons for the local users but not for the website owners who are all remote users.  There only access is Via FTP.
These people don’t have vpn, or workgroup or root etc access so please tell me how they are going to maintain their websites without FTP.
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The removal of ftp is outright lunacy, this is I am led to believe a community project where the users can have input into its development to some extent.

For me at least, if FTP is removed I would find continuing with the use of sme difficult if not impossible.
The use of CMS systems that have their own built in FTP is not a good choice and creates many problems.  Mostly this option allows only one to 10 files at a time so when it comes to the next upgrade of the cms you’re expecting people to upload 200 plus files one at a time.  That’s Complete lunacy, and totally impractical.  Not to mention that many cms systems just don’t have this option available.  Are we going to be forced to use only one cms system? There are more than 1,000 different cms systems out there so who gets to choose what a client can run as there cms.
If you’re going to cater ONLY to the type 1 user then please tell me now so that I can immediately drop all my plans to use and implement SME personally and for my clients.
I can only reiterate my comments that FTP is the workhorse of the website administrator even if it’s not used so much for server administration.  To remove FTP is a mistake that will cost sme dearly and lose patronage from many quarters.
You need to cater to the person who wants to use sme primarily as a web server environment with many websites maintained by individual owners just as much as you cater to the office user environment.  It’s what makes SME a great tool.  Take away the tools that make it a user friendly and ultra usable option and it will lose much of its appeal and support base.


Thanks
Steve

PS there are over 1,000 Linux based backup systems available from source forge that all offer ftp as an option.  Ill say that again  ITS AN OPTION.  For those that dont want to use it then they don't have to.

[steve1084]

Hi I agree that fading out ftp is not good. I have sme server running with approx 50 sites on it, I cant run some of my customers site on here because they manage their own sites and use ftp to do so. I have had to resort to using a cms system for those who want to manage their site. This is all well and good but they are resource hungry and I have little time to educate the users how to administer the sites using cms

Hi Benny

You might want to try this contrib from dungog.  It works really well. And if used correctly locks the user to the ibay.

http://wiki.contribs.org/FTP_Access_to_Ibays

Thanks
Steve