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A horrible experience that could be prevented

Offline erroneus

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A horrible experience that could be prevented
« on: November 24, 2008, 06:07:56 AM »
I am presently dealing with a problem that I had not anticipated.  I have deployed SME server multiple times and have always been pleased with its utter simplicity and ease of installation.  But this ease and simplicity comes at a cost of being unable to prevent tragic mistakes as they occur.

In my case, I had not realized that when a system is being installed, it will enlist USB drives into RAID building if they are available without asking the user or otherwise showing a summary of changes about to be committed.  It does, however, ask if you would like to recover from backup, including USB, leading one to believe that USB drives are identified at install time as possible sources of data to be restored.  This was my assumption about the install process... and no, I have no recall of reading otherwise in the manual and I am pretty sure I read the manual from cover to cover.  While I know my memory is faulty, I simply don't recall any warning to remove any USB drives not intended for use in a RAID system creation.

But regardless of this, every Linux distro I have ever experienced gives the user a review of the partitioning layout prior to committing the change.  SME server does not.  For people experienced in the use and deployment of SME server, this is no big deal as the behavior is already understood.  But for people who are not, this is a potentially fatal problem that could be avoided with a summary screen stating "the following is the partition layout... [partition layout table] Is this okay?"  Seeing this, I would have realized the mistake I was about to make and halted immediately.  Instead, the drive was repartitioned and enlisted as a 3rd drive in a mirrored RAID configuration.

But what lead me to this terrible position?  Well, it was an RPM dependency problem that should be resolved at the CentOS level.  I wanted to remove the Japanese language extensions from the installation.  I used the web interface.  The dependencies were such that removing the Japanese language elements pulled virtually the entire e-smith system out of the installation immediately and without any prompting -- it just went and that was all.  I was able to ssh into the box, but recovery was impossible in a short time.  So I decided to rely on backing up the data or on previously completed backups.

I attempted to "upgrade" but it did nearly nothing as the system seemed rather unaffected after the very quick upgrade process ran.  I ran an install and... well... the first paragraph details what I am experiencing.

The USB drive's partitions were changed from a single ext3 partition to two RAID partitions as are observable in a typical SME installation.  The file root directory structure, however, seems to remain showing file and directory names... those files and directories are, however, unavailable and the OS reports an I/O error due to unreachable sectors.  I suspect repartitioning will enable some level of recovery as I don't believe the drive was set up as anything but a spare in the RAID mirror... I hope that is the case anyway.

This lengthy account is a plea to include some sort of summary table describing the partition layout including which drives are being enlisted into the configuration prior to committing the partitioning.  It could save someone like me... and I suspect there are many people at least as stupid wanting to use SME server.  The reputation of Linux is built on experiences like these and if I were not a very experienced Linux user, I would blame Linux as a very risky and unforgiving system to use.  My experience with Ubuntu, Fedora and RHEL/CentOS has set my expectations and I see that SME Server is very different in this regard and I don't think it is a good idea.

Offline David Harper

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Re: A horrible experience that could be prevented
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2008, 06:11:51 AM »
The installer is pretty clear when it says "ALL disks will be erased". But if you would like to have a clearer notice included in the documentation, you can raise a request in the bug tracker.

The issue with yum uninstalling excess dependencies is something that AFAIK is being looked into already - it's a known problem. See http://wiki.contribs.org/Top_5.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 01:55:05 PM by davidiwharper »

Offline thomasch

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Re: A horrible experience that could be prevented
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2008, 10:27:31 AM »
The installer is pretty clear when it says "ALL disks will be erased". But if you would like to have a clearer notice included in the documentation, you can raise a request in the bug tracker.


May I suggest "ALL disks INCLUDING USB DISKS will be erased"  if you want to raise a NFR.

thomas


Offline cactus

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Re: A horrible experience that could be prevented
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2008, 12:32:13 PM »
Although the development team does read the forums, I suggest you post your oppening post and request to the bugtracker so the development team can decide on their actions. The bugtracker is the place to suggest changes and do suggestions for the development course of SME Server.
Be careful whose advice you buy, but be patient with those who supply it. Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than its worth ~ Baz Luhrmann - Everybody's Free (To Wear Sunscreen)

Offline erroneus

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Re: A horrible experience that could be prevented
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2008, 02:42:20 PM »
That is not clear enough.  In this case, it was a simple oversight that the USB drive was plugged in and would be affected.  It is a USB drive after all, not the main drives.  These kinds of mistakes are easy to make.  A complete table of drives to be affected would be much more clear.

In any case, to follow-up, I did a "dd" to an identical USB drive and then changed the partition table with fdisk back to a single ext3 partition.  I have full access to the data again.  I feel VERY fortunate.

Offline cactus

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Re: A horrible experience that could be prevented
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2008, 02:49:40 PM »
In any case, to follow-up, I did a "dd" to an identical USB drive and then changed the partition table with fdisk back to a single ext3 partition.  I have full access to the data again.  I feel VERY fortunate.
That is nice, but will not prevent this in the future, so please open a bug for it.
Be careful whose advice you buy, but be patient with those who supply it. Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than its worth ~ Baz Luhrmann - Everybody's Free (To Wear Sunscreen)

Offline janet

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Re: A horrible experience that could be prevented
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2008, 02:54:53 PM »
erroneus

Quote
It does, however, ask if you would like to recover from backup, including USB, leading one to believe that USB drives are identified at install time as possible sources of data to be restored.  This was my assumption about the install process...

Incorrect assumption and incorrect belief.

You are asked if you want to restore from backup (eg USB) on the first reboot AFTER installing sme server.
You connect the USB backup drive during the reboot process, so it is available to restore from on the first reboot.


Quote
I simply don't recall any warning to remove any USB drives not intended for use in a RAID system creation.

As has already been pointed out, you are warned that all connected drives will be erased when performing the OS install.

This is a case of user error.
Please search before asking, an answer may already exist.
The Search & other links to useful information are at top of Forum.

Offline Stefano

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Re: A horrible experience that could be prevented
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2008, 03:02:58 PM »
It is a USB drive after all, not the main drives. 

you are worng IMHO.. it is A drive, full stop.

Teorically I could build a server with external usb drives.. that would be nice for hotplug :-)

Ciao
Stefano

Offline m

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Re: A horrible experience that could be prevented
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2008, 12:15:51 AM »
you are worng IMHO.. it is A drive, full stop.
Disagreed. This may be technically correct but it is nothing one would expect.
This is a ergonomical bug and should be fixed. This behaviour is not consistent with easy use and plug-and-play concept of SME server. I fell into this trap myself when SME integrates USB disk or HBA connected SANs into the RAID Array. I have now learned my lesson and always disconnect all physically or virtually drives before installing SME.
 

Offline slords

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Re: A horrible experience that could be prevented
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2008, 03:28:42 AM »
A drive is a drive.  The information that gets passed to the installer is the size of the drive and if it is removable or not.  USB hard drives are considered non-removable drives.  Removable drives are usb pen drives and floppy/cd rom drives.  The installer ignores all removable drives and uses all non-removable drives that are at least 2Gb in size.

As many of these USB drives are presented to the operating system as scsi devices there really isn't a way of detecting them and ignoring them.  If you don't want a drive to be included in the "ALL" that will be formated then ensure it isn't connected to the system when you are installing.
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs,
and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook

Offline David Harper

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Re: A horrible experience that could be prevented
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2008, 04:45:58 AM »