Topic: Read the darn SME Documentation!

[Andrei Taylor]

It would be very nice if before some people post to these forums that they at least read the SME Server User guide or do a search of the forums before posting a question like "How do I ftp to an ibay?". Even newbies who can chew gum and walk at the same time should have a small bit of common since to to go over the documentation.

I just don't understand????!!!!

[Urirama]

Amen to that!
But of course it's just so much easier to simply ask and get an answer without having to do any more for it than ask the question, than actually having to read manuals for hours.
I'm always happy to help people out, but it quickly gets annoying if someone posts question after question which is covered in the SME docs.
And I won't even bother to reply to people who send their question to *both* forums.

[Dom]

.So proud of all you Linux GURU if everyone was like the both of you we would not need these forums.
Some people are so new to Linux that even after reading Docs. and How-to things are still not clear.  Try telling a Windows person how to edit a file.
Hey, you two are too good for me.
Maybe you guys should use the source codes from e-smith and make your own server-gateway.  Then you can write the Docs. and How-to so we will never need forums.

Cheers,
Dom.

[Bill Talcott]

Dom wrote:
>
> .So proud of all you Linux GURU if everyone was like the both
> of you we would not need these forums.
> Some people are so new to Linux that even after reading Docs.
> and How-to things are still not clear.  Try telling a Windows
> person how to edit a file.
> Hey, you two are too good for me.
> Maybe you guys should use the source codes from e-smith and
> make your own server-gateway.  Then you can write the Docs.
> and How-to so we will never need forums.
>
> Cheers,
> Dom.

e-smith is designed to be run by people with basic computer usage skills. You don't need hardly any technical knowledge at all, much less Linux experience, for the day-to-day stuff. If you want to get into customizing parts of it, then you should expect that you'll need to know a little bit about how the underlying operating system works. But even then, most of the HowTo's I've seen list all the necessary commands step by step even. I usually cut and paste right from the webpage into the SSH client, changing "yourcompany.xxx" to the real domain name or whatever.

Here's a Linux/Windows editing example of editing a file. Copied straight from a HowTo..
mkdir -p /etc/e-smith/templates-custom/var/spool/smtpd/etc/smtpd_check_rules
cd /etc/e-smith/templates-custom/var/spool/smtpd/etc/smtpd_check_rules
cp /etc/e-smith/templates/var/spool/smtpd/etc/smtpd_check_rules/60AllowLocalDomains .
pico 60AllowLocalDomains

Here's the equivalent in Windows.
md C:\etc\e-smith\templates-custom\var\spool\smtpd\etc\smtpd_check_rules
cd C:\etc\e-smith\templates-custom\var\spool\smtpd\etc\smtpd_check_rules
copy C:\etc\e-smith\templates\var\spool\smtpd\etc\smtpd_check_rules\60AllowLocalDomains
edit 60AllowLocalDomains

With it typed out like that, you can see it's really not that different. And like I said, the average user shouldn't have to do that anyway.

It's one thing to not understand something in the manual/HowTo, but a lot of the questions are section titles in the manual, and the only answer the person needs is two sentences down the page. If you've read the manual and still don't get it, say that. Maybe someone can rephrase it to help you, without making you look like someone incapable of something as simple as reading the instructions.

[Urirama]

Dom,

My point is that I'm NOT a Linux guru.  I'm a Windows user and know next to nothing about Linux, but have learned to find my basic way around the SME server by simply reading a *lot* of all the many helpfiles out there!

I realize there are so many helpfiles around, that one can lose track of the possible places to find the answer to certain questions.  That's why I not only tell people to read the manual but I also include the link to the answer.

But so many questions asked here are covered in the SME User Guide, or have already been covered on these forums, that it does seem like many people are simply too lazy to search for the answer to their question.  I don't expect people to know all How-tos available, or even where to find them all, but I think it really shouldn't be too much to ask for people to read at least the basic User Guide!

And like Bill says, if someone doesn't understand certain parts of the manual, that's something different.  Some SME users are foreign and have difficulties with the language, some SME users just don't know very much about computers and need more help than is provided in the manual.  That's okay, and of course there are many people around here willing to help out, but usually what I'm seeing is not "I don't understand this bit in the manual", but basic questions which are covered in the manual or have been posted and solved on these forums.

Regarding "telling a Windows person how to edit a file" -- this isn't a Linux newbie forum, it's a SME support forum.  Linux newbies should realize that what they're installing is Linux, which is quite a bit different from Windows, where your hand is held at every step you take.  And yes, if they want to do a bit more than just the general SME admin stuff, they should be prepared to learn a bit about Linux.  This includes doing websearches, searching these forums, perhaps reading a book or two on the subject, and/or joining a Linux newbie forum like www.linuxnewbie.org

If reading a bit about your SME server is too much to ask, then please keep using Windows.

[Ade]

Hi Urirama

Dam true now how do i reboot windows?

[Jerry]

I agree with Dom , so what if they ask a stupid question !! everyone who uses e-smith there gone love it after a while ..

jerry

[Andy MacDonald]

I am on several forums regularly. This is just one of them. I have only been a part of the e-smith good stuff for some time, and consider myself mildly capable. This forum is amazingly helpful and I feel proud to have been able to actually offer advice from time to time. More often, I'm learning by reading about other people's problems and how they're fixed. I have the e-smith manual printed out. I have installed it on my e-smith server with an rpm I found somewhere. I make custom e-smith cd's to give to people with all the .rpms and howto's on the same disc, so they can install it, then drop the disc in their workstation to see how to tweak it and add features. I include the FAQs on it and links to these forums and other sites. I give them links to EVERY piece of information that I have ever possibly found out about e-smith.
When they ask questions, I pull a random page number out of my arse and tell them to go to the instruction manual on that page. Because they think they're being directed exactly to the answer, they go there expecting to find it at that exact page. Sometimes they let me know that the answer was somewhere else....
Normally they don't ask again.
I know that real men don't read instruction manuals. They ask the geeks who actually do, and wonder how they accumulated all this knowledge.
I don't know anything special about e-smith, but I sure as hell know where to find out.
I guess it stems from being encouraged to be independant when I was a child.

[Marcu]

Is it right that linux users are of the oppinion that they are better than other?

What the hell is the problem with giving good answers, hä? Sometimes I feel good by helping others, dont you?

I think, you are wrong!!!!

[Bill Talcott]

Marcu wrote:
>
> Is it right that linux users are of the oppinion that they
> are better than other?

Linux is generally harder to use. I think everyone who has gained the ability to do something that most people can't has a tendency to feel they are better than the ones who can't. The ones who know a lot about something (whether it's Linux or building engines or birdwatching) generally know all that because they spent a long time learning it. They are proud of what they've accomplished via a lot of time and effort.

> What the hell is the problem with giving good answers, hä?
> Sometimes I feel good by helping others, dont you?
>
> I think, you are wrong!!!!

The point is that someone has already answered the question. A bunch of questions actually. And put them all together into one nice manual. Why should I try to dig up an answer or provide an in-depth explanation of something for someone who's too lazy to type "e-smith.org/docs/manual" and hit Search? The manual is there specifically to answer these questions. If you blatantly disregard the suggestions in front of you, I feel no need to go out of my way to help you. Going by that fact alone, the odds are 100% in favor of you ignoring my advice anyway.

[Dom]

Hey man nobody is asking to have their hands held. I have posted questions in this forum that I could not find.  Someone took the time to point me to a link or answered the question.  Many times its software questions that I have. Software meaning; groupware, port forwarding, ADSL problems etc.  Some of these are not covered in the manual or the How-tos.  It was just someone who had a link or had the same problems and is willing to help.  I do not know the level of people's ability to read a doc. so if I know the answer I am more than willing to help.
Sometimes I am just stuck and need a quick answer.
It really bugs me when I see people like those two GURUS.  I went to another forum and there was someone there using Mandrake Firewall Security and was having a hard time getting an application to work.  So I told him my bad experience with Mandrake and told him to try e-smith.  To my surprise two days later he told me the e-smith server was up and running and he loved it and wrote back to me to say thanks.
I also suggested that he use the forum if he had any questions he did not understand because e-smith's forum is the best I have seen.
I guess a few bad apples won't change this forum and the excellent support other users and I have received.

Cheer,
Dom.

[phillip ramirez]

Well I know I run several email lists one being very open and people ask the same questions over and over and I find that it helps to keep the simple things in my mind so it helps memory retention. anyway I just started to play with linux and well i wanted a home email server to do away with all the pay per use or fee based pop3 email and spam associated to it so I decided to build my own. so far I havent needed too many questions asked luckly one of my subs is also an e-smith employee and he turned me onto e-smith. I have asked him a couple of questions regarding setting up my server and he has helped and I know how to use the phorums .. sometimes people get stuck and no matter how much searching they cant find an answer and ask a question and sometimes people just want to be helped and fail to even try.. I have done this in the past.. I say keep asking questions so I can learn more... as I was taught while studing to become a teacher.. the only bad question is the question unasked..

[Andrei Taylor]

I still don't understand "Why you have to ask how to FTP to an iBAY!"

[Randall]

You oughta work for State, County, or the Fed's.  Many users are Welfare-To-Work employees.  I get asked the "Same  D @ /\/\ questions day in and day out.  I'm a friggin' paper'd network eng'ee'neer!  But you smile and  answer their questions, you  hand them (OR GUIDE THEM TO  IN THESE FORUMS) step by step instructions.  And in about 6-7 months users figure out how to do a few things on their own. Users just as Newbies to Linux, only come here usually after they've frustrated themselves already... and some are just lazy.  That's life.  I  myself have even done searches for a specific problem that didn't show up in the search.  

Perhaps it is time for the 2 masters to turn things over to the grasshopper, or whatever is next highest in the food chain, so they can retire to Florida and a simpler life...