Topic: Making room in SME for alternative applications

[edform]

There's been quite a bit of discussion here recently about extending SME with a more universally acceptable groupware product than the Horde Suite and I've been looking at Kerio Mailserver as a possible candidate. Kerio isn't free, but it is cheap and works extremely well, so I'm happy to use it if I can integrate it into an SME server without loosing the features of SME that I value...

A first rate file and print server
A secure combined firewall and web-cache
A management interface that even I can understand.

To get Kerio working I began by disabling the standard SME services that occupy ports 25, 110, 119, 143, 465, 563, and 995 using the Service Control contribution in Server manager. I should have disabled the webservers on ports 80 and 443 and the LDAP stuff on 389 and 636 as well because Kerio, which is completely self-contained, wants to use all those ports, but I wasn't sure about stopping the webservers or the LDAP servers. I then loaded Kerio with yum and it's rpm package and changed its webserver ports to 8080 and 4430. After adding the kerio server start command to rc.local I now have a fully working server that survives reboots and at least one SME software update run from the server manager. It also allows users to authenticate to the mail server from the SME authorisation database, so no laborious double database entry for new users.

At my low-level of competence this seems a potentially powerful way to get round the difficulties of incorporating some very desirable software packages into the SME structure. In Kerio's case the built in backup system is good enough to consider dealing with SME upgrades by backing up the stores, removing the product [yum remove kerio...], upgrading the server, killing the unwanted services again and then reinstalling Kerio and restoring the backup, but perhaps that won't be necessary - I'll try upgrading to 8 beta over my current 7.4 system later today.

Before getting too caried away, however, I'd like to get some knowledgeable comments on this way of doing things. The obvious questions are...

1. Given that my desired application provides its own services, both standard and secure, for SMTP, POP3, IMAP, LDAP and HTTP, can I safely dispense with those functions from SME, and can I do this by actually removing the components with yum remove?

2. Will it be necessary to carry out a separate operation to alter the template system so as to detach the setup templates for those services that are not required, or can they be left intact?

3. If the answer to (1) is yes, what relationship to the SME firewall do the new components have? Is the system still protected or are the third-party services loopholes?

4. Finally, with an eye on other software products, how far can SME component removal be pushed before the system itself is killed - I know, for example, that I can't turn off MySQL because the user databases are stored in it, but what is the minimum SME structure?

Ed Form

[psdata]

Hello Ed,

At the fist a good place to make this aktion.

I have a few thing's to say.

The horde "groupware" just a littele part is only the webclient site for your acces to the mail boxe's  on base off Imapi. Every webbased imapi tool you can install on you sme box to connect to your IMAPI service

Kerio Mailserver is a installation off a complete new mail server implemtation on the sme box (and what you say it's cost money)

I read you stops a lot off service's on your box to get Kerio running, are the Ibay's still running to acces these over the web?
What you do is very high impakting on the standard sme installing (if you modefy a lot, think also on the updating procces of the SME part's (YUM update all) and you own new installed part.

These are some key not's on your writting, But it's nice to read how are you working with your system, and please keep on posting your work here.

regards

John





 

[cactus]

and please keep on posting your work here.

I'd rather see people putting their howto's in the wiki, and reference them from the forum topics.

[edform]

I'd rather see people putting their howto's in the wiki, and reference them from the forum topics.

I fear this won't be a Howto, or anything like one, for some time yet! 

Ed Form

[gzartman]

Kerio is more of a competitive product to SME than an app that could be placed on SME.  Kerio can do just about everything that SME can do if you are willing to pay for it.

I believe there are much better groupware apps out there that could replace Horde, such as Zarafa.

Kerio does have better overall mailserver functionality than SME, but not by a large margin.  I believe you are overlooking the fact that the vast majority of SME's mailserver functionality is under the hood, not visible from the server-manager.   

IMO, your time would be better spent identifying those features in Kerio that are currently not available in SME and working with developers to implement them.

[m]

Kerio is more of a competitive product to SME than an app that could be placed on SME.  Kerio can do just about everything that SME can do if you are willing to pay for it.

This is true as well as wrong. It depends on your goals and on what you focus on. I have a (small) Kerio installation running for over 1 1/2 year now. And I decided to use SME as the base, because of its fast and easy installation with reproducible results. And last but not least because of the backup features available on SME.
The decision for Kerio was made because of the push sync features for mobile devices. It pushes mails, calendar, addresses etc to iPhones, Nokias etc via ActiveSync out of the box without any hassle or ongoing maintenance. The web gui is very clear, extremly fast and well localized. As it is very similar to the Outlook design, almost no user education or support is needed.
Yes, you have to pay licence fees, but I don't think that the TCO is necessarily higher compared to OSS groupware.

[m]

Ed,
could you provide some details how configure Kerio to alllows users to authenticate against a SME user database? did you use IMAP?
Thanks,
Michael

[edform]

Kerio is more of a competitive product to SME than an app that could be placed on SME.  Kerio can do just about everything that SME can do if you are willing to pay for it.

The full list of programs that the Kerio people do could probably be used on top of a bare Linux Server install to produce something with much of the functionality of SME, but with none of the convenience or simplicity of use and certainly none of the confidence I've developed over a lot of years of using it. My interest in Kerio, which is exclusively in their mail server, is more as an example of superior replacement functionality that can only be implemented by disabling the corresponding functions in SME. I intend to look at other programs that may be capable of implementation through the same approach, Kerio just happens to be the one closest to my needs and which is self-contained.

I believe there are much better groupware apps out there that could replace Horde, such as Zarafa.

Zarafa is pretty and works well, but it's interface - which has a number of important deficiencies -  can only be customised by altering the source and recompiling. Kerio is built using CSS and text files, so is very easy to customise.

Kerio does have better overall mailserver functionality than SME, but not by a large margin.  I believe you are overlooking the fact that the vast majority of SME's mailserver functionality is under the hood, not visible from the server-manager.

The web interface of SME's mailserver - that is Horde - is crude compared to Kerio, not just by a small margin but by a margin that makes Horde a near impossible sell. I also estimate that the time to extend the DIMP approach to the whole suite will be measured in years. I'm not sure what you refer to when you talk about power under the hood; the functionality that can be seen on the surface is more than sufficient for my kind of clients, but the interface is just too naff to be useable by anyone who's been exposed to a modern mail client with inline viewing of images and a slick interface. As for the many methods advanced for connecting Horde to some of these modern programs: I've tried them all and they are all far to unstable for business-critical situations. Besides, I don't want to be connected to other programs, and particularly not to Outlook - Have you used Outlook 2007? It's a disaster. I want a suite that works together from backend to client and offers an easy way to supply clients with the customisations that their businesses need. Kerio is suited to that requirement. Scalix is much better than that, but it looks like a real pig to fit into SME, so I've started with Kerio.

And, just as an aside: I've had twenty users on Horde at a single client for the last two years, and have been instructed to replace it quickly because the latest version is buggy in places that make their life very difficult. I'm going to solve that one with Scalix running on Centos on a second server, but two servers represents too much investment for the majority of my clients - hence the desire for an SME server with a nice Ajax groupware client built in - or a Windows application talking to a MySQL database

IMO, your time would be better spent identifying those features in Kerio that are currently not available in SME and working with developers to implement them.

I have no programming skills at all , but I do know what small offices need from their Groupware facilities. What I'd like to see is a community project to produce an Exchange/Outlook replacement templated into SME, with a Windows application as its client, and I'm willing to put money into the community pot to get it. Another correspondent suggested I invest in a new template for Horde but that shows a lack of understanding of the real problem - very few clients will accept an application that rewrites its entire screen each time you smile at it, no matter how well thought out its layout and graphical widgets are. In the fairly near future that very few will be no one.

Ed Form

[stephen noble]

Zarafa is pretty and works well, but it's interface - which has a number of important deficiencies -  can only be customised by altering the source and recompiling. Kerio is built using CSS and text files, so is very easy to customise.

No developer will spend time helping on a new contrib until you have shown that there are fatal flaws with current efforts

ie create a bug outlining the problems
two actually, one in SME for tracking, one at zarafa so we can see what zarafa have to say


EDIT
the original questions have been answered if you look at the smeserver-zarafa rpm
+ http://bugs.contribs.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4907

[edform]

Ed,
could you provide some details how configure Kerio to alllows users to authenticate against a SME user database? did you use IMAP?
Thanks,
Michael

In the add user dialogue of the Windows Mailserver administrator there is a pull-down list of authentication methods. If you choose Linux(R) Pam, and If you've set your user templates correctly, you only have to enter the username and the Full name, possibly a new email address on the next screen if you have say edform as the username and ed.form as the mail name, then click through the rest of the screens and your new user will authenticate with the password they already have in SME.

Ed Form

[CharlieBrady]

I know, for example, that I can't turn off MySQL because the user databases are stored in it, ...

That's false. mysql in SME server is only used to store imp/horde user preferences.

[Teviot]

I have no programming skills at all , but I do know what small offices need from their Groupware facilities. What I'd like to see is a community project to produce an Exchange/Outlook replacement templated into SME, with a Windows application as its client

I'm with Ed.

I have seen enough interest in this idea and would love someone to start this project as I don't have the talents to do it myself.  All I can help with is beta testing and documentaion.

Have a look at the following posts

http://forums.contribs.org/index.php/topic,43019.0.html and
http://forums.contribs.org/index.php/topic,43038.0.html to see that there is a lot of interest.

I'm not saying drop horde, I'm just say that the interest in this project is there enought to investigate if not start this project

I put my hand up HIGH to start this project

[edform]

No developer will spend time helping on a new contrib until you have shown that there are fatal flaws with current efforts

ie create a bug outlining the problems
two actually, one in SME for tracking, one at zarafa so we can see what zarafa have to say

There is no point whatsoever in adding a bug in the SME-Zarafa development list since you have only what Zarafa can do to work with and cannot add the missing function - unless you feel like editing the Zarafa source and compiling from scratch. As to what Zarafa have to say: read the thread that contains this message...

http://forums.zarafa.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=777&p=6564&hilit=Ed+Form#p6564

They have added the feature request to their roadmap but their priorities are heavily loaded elswhere at the moment - and who can argue with that, their results to date are quite splendid.

To demand a fatal flaw is a bit strong - the program cannot make diary entries coloured to correspond with user group determined work definitions - For example, a solicitor might want 'In Court', 'Probate', 'Exchange date', etc etc to be particular colours. He will not be interested in "important, work, personal, holiday,required, travel required, prepare required, birthday, special date, and phone interview" but that's all he can have in Zarafa. This isn't a bug, nor is it a fatal flaw, it's just an ommision that makes the product a toy and not a serious groupware possibility.

EDIT
the original questions have been answered if you look at the smeserver-zarafa rpm
+ http://bugs.contribs.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4907

Thanks for that, I'll start going through the things outlined.

Ed Form

[edform]

That's false. mysql in SME server is only used to store imp/horde user preferences.

Thanks for that correction.

So MySQL could go to make room for PostgreSQL as used in Scalix? 

Ed Form

[gzartman]

I don't doubt Kerio's functionality (in fact I tested it out several years ago), but SME is not the proper platform for it.  Instead, you should be looking at a minimal Centos LAMP installation as the base for Kerio.   I don't see a Kerio on SME contrib getting much, if any, mainstream SME dev support because of the level at which it breaks/replaces core SME functions.

Ed, I think you mis-understand my statements about SME's email functionality.  Once again, most of what SME has to offer as a mail server isn't in its webmail app.  SME is a very powerful mail server that lacks a good webmail frontend and some M$ exchange type functionality.   There are quite a number of email filtering and spam prevention mechanisms under the hood with options that aren't available in the server-manager, but are available with console commands.

Groupware is an entirely separate discussion.   Given the pace at which online Groupware apps such as iGoogle are progressing , I think you'll see small to medium business moving away from expensive MS Exchange solutions to the very feature rich online services.  My company, for example, uses iGoogle for our groupware solution with full push and shared email, calendar, addressbooks, and notes to mobile devices.

The best thing you can do is raise bugs in the tracker requesting the additional functionality.