Topic: Making room in SME for alternative applications

[edform]

I don't doubt Kerio's functionality (in fact I tested it out several years ago), but SME is not the proper platform for it.  Instead, you should be looking at a minimal Centos LAMP installation as the base for Kerio.   I don't see a Kerio on SME contrib getting much, if any, mainstream SME dev support because of the level at which it breaks/replaces core SME functions.

You seem to have misunderstood my reason for starting this thread. I have no long term interest in Kerio, it's simply an example of a better groupware application than Horde with at least as good email server functionality. My original question was: 'Can I disable the mailserver functionality of SME and replace it with Kerio, and if so, how?' For the area of business I operate in, the SME server is built in precisely the right way and can be operated without significant difficulty by folks like me, but Horde is now a glaringly defficient part of the 'core SME functions.'

Ed, I think you mis-understand my statements about SME's email functionality.  Once again, most of what SME has to offer as a mail server isn't in its webmail app.  SME is a very powerful mail server that lacks a good webmail frontend and some M$ exchange type functionality.   There are quite a number of email filtering and spam prevention mechanisms under the hood with options that aren't available in the server-manager, but are available with console commands.

I am completely clear on what can be done with SME below the server-manager level - I use many of the mechanisms you refer to as a matter of routine, but they are not the point; none of them is superior to the built-in functionality of Kerio, or of Scalix, or of Zimbra. I have no arguments with the underlying email server in SME, my point is that Horde is simply unsuitable for the real world.

Groupware is an entirely separate discussion.

When I started this thread, Groupware was the *entire* substance of the discussion.

Given the pace at which online Groupware apps such as iGoogle are progressing , I think you'll see small to medium business moving away from expensive MS Exchange solutions to the very feature rich online services.  My company, for example, uses iGoogle for our groupware solution with full push and shared email, calendar, addressbooks, and notes to mobile devices.

I wouldn't commit any of my clients to Google for a king's ransom - apart from anything else, the Google account pages are a day-dreamer's paradise. If we had a proper backend/client set for mail and calendars built into SME there would be no need to go near Google.

The best thing you can do is raise bugs in the tracker requesting the additional functionality.

Nope! I'm not seeking to divert SME from whatever path the developers choose to drive it down. I'm trying to find out how to disable some bits of SME and install a modern groupware server in their place. If this can be done, and if the resulting hybrid works, *then* is the time to write a feature request for consideration by the developers or by the programming members of the community.

Ed Form

[gzartman]

You seem to have misunderstood my reason for starting this thread. I have no long term interest in Kerio, it's simply an example of a better groupware application than Horde with at least as good email server functionality.

Ok, now we're talking.  Let's expand on this, as this is most definitely a shortcoming of SME that I believe we can address.  Would you be willing to outline some of your thoughts in the wiki?  I'd be more than happy to help facilitate this.   Between a wiki page and some reports in the bug tracker I believe we could get the mechanisms in place to help those in the community with the technical skills to make this happen understand the need.

When I started this thread, Groupware was the *entire* substance of the discussion.

I understand that now, but what your original post implied was that you wanted to replace 90%+ of SME email server functionality.

I wouldn't commit any of my clients to Google for a king's ransom - apart from anything else, the Google account pages are a day-dreamer's paradise. If we had a proper backend/client set for mail and calendars built into SME there would be no need to go near Google.

Pitty, but understood.   We can leave this for a seperate discussion.

Nope! I'm not seeking to divert SME from whatever path the developers choose to drive it down.

Then nothing will ever happen.  There are many developers in the community who have nothing to do with the development of the core distro who may agree with you and take up your project and run with it. 

[Teviot]

I have seen enough interest in this idea and would love someone to start this project as I don't have the talents to do it myself.  All I can help with is beta testing and documentation.

Have a look at the following posts

http://forums.contribs.org/index.php/topic,43019.0.html and
http://forums.contribs.org/index.php/topic,43038.0.html to see that there is a lot of interest.

I'm not saying drop horde, I'm just say that the interest in this project is there enought to investigate if not start this project

I put my hand up HIGH to start this project

I would like to see and from the posts that i have seen regarding an alternative, I personally believe that a Microsoft Outlook "Plugin or Addon or some other interface" to get the functionality of Exchange/Outlook would be good for the distro.  I suggest and Exchange/Outlook addon because it seems to me (I could be wrong) that Outlook is the most popular because it is the most widely advertised.

I Friend on mine who is in the IT industry in currently looking for a server platform like SME that have Exchange/Outlook capabilities for a client that plans to set up the same system Australia wide.

Having said that, the Client is not just in Australia.  The client has a worldwide presence.

Don't you think that if the Australian part of the client is using and is VERY happy with SME with some form of Exchange/Outlook capabilities, then the rest of the world (with regards to this client) would be looking very seriously at SME

Maybe we as a community should push SME a bit harder.  I myself want to see a Exchange/Outlook capability added to the SME SERVER PLATFORM.

Lets do it guys.  Lets got for it.

[m]

In the add user dialogue of the Windows Mailserver administrator there is a pull-down list of authentication methods. If you choose Linux(R) Pam, and If you've set your user templates correctly, you only have to enter the username and the Full name, possibly a new email address on the next screen if you have say edform as the username and ed.form as the mail name, then click through the rest of the screens and your new user will authenticate with the password they already have in SME.

Thanks Ed. I thought you have found a way to authenticate against another server rather than against the local user db.
BTW., do you know that there is an API program available, which allows you to manage user accounts from the command line? With that API it should be feasible to integrate the Kerio into the SME template system.

1 Introduction
This document describes configuration options of the User Administration API which allows remote administration of Kerio MailServer by using the command line. This application can be used to add and/or remove users, groups, aliases and email domains without the need to manipulate with configuration files and to restart the Kerio MailServer Engine. The application is also useful for processing of larger data volumes.
The configuration can be changed by line-wrapped SQL commands. Commands can be entered via the command line upon connection to the server or they can be saved as a text file (this is helpful if more commands are entered).
User administration API is represented by the kconfig utility which is available on demand at Kerio Technologies. kconfig is distributed as ZIP in three versions (for Windows, Linux and Mac OS X). When extracted, run the utility by the kconfig command.

[m]

So MySQL could go to make room for PostgreSQL as used in Scalix? 

You can install the pgsql packages in parallel to mysql. No need to remove any standard packages. I have done this 2 years ago on SME 7.1.2

[Stefano]

Maybe we as a community should push SME a bit harder.  I myself want to see a Exchange/Outlook capability added to the SME SERVER PLATFORM.

how do you think you could push SME? paying? coding? how?

if you want something to use with outlook you have: buy zarafa licenses, install outlook plugin and go.. nothing more, nothing less..

if you want something like exchange, then you need exchange or something like scalix, zimbra, kerio ecc.. all of them are applications I would install on a separate machine, not over SME.

My 2c
ciao
Stefano

[CharlieBrady]

So MySQL could go to make room for PostgreSQL as used in Scalix? 

MySQL and postgreSQL co-exist without a problem. [Edit: as I see Michael mentioned above.]

[edform]

Ok, now we're talking.  Let's expand on this, as this is most definitely a shortcoming of SME that I believe we can address.  Would you be willing to outline some of your thoughts in the wiki?  I'd be more than happy to help facilitate this.   Between a wiki page and some reports in the bug tracker I believe we could get the mechanisms in place to help those in the community with the technical skills to make this happen understand the need.

I'd be happy to do that - I have access to the wiki, so I can draft a page - I'll try to get to it after I return home tomorrow from my client's site.

I understand that now, but what your original post implied was that you wanted to replace 90%+ of SME email server functionality.

Purely because some of the most interesting groupware products are either...

Self-contained with everything in the install, like Kerio, so the standard users of the ports in question have to be disabled

Or use a different set of email components to the ones favoured by the SME developers, so disabling the standard stuff is still needed.

I'm still working on the idea because I have a test box and I need an answer in the short term, but it has always been my hope that the defficiencies of the Horde stuff would be addressed in the standard distro or with a really good contribution.

Ed Form

[si_blakely]

I have started wondering if OpenVZ would be a good solution to this question.

OpenVZ allows for multiple independent containers, sharing the running kernel, but independent. SME provides the basic OS framework and templates, but services can be isolated in containers. So if you want to replace the mail backends, the SME mail container could be disabled, and a Kerio mail container installed, providing SMTP/POP/IMAP etc. For HTTP/HTTPS services, the firewall/primary web interface would mostly just provide redirection services to other containers (using SNI if needed). Authentication services can be provided by an LDAP container (and replaced with something else like samba4 or Fedora Directory server).

Contribs would end up being OpenVZ containers, thus avoiding dependency problems. Most would be small (using hardlinked templates to original OS files).

This would have the advantage of service isolation, and maybe avoid the reboots that annoy me about SME updates (you only need to restart the service container that has updated, not the whole system).

Anyhow, just a thought.

Si

[Stefano]

I have started wondering if OpenVZ would be a good solution to this question.

OpenVZ allows for multiple independent containers, sharing the running kernel, but independent. SME provides the basic OS framework and templates, but services can be isolated in containers. So if you want to replace the mail backends, the SME mail container could be disabled, and a Kerio mail container installed, providing SMTP/POP/IMAP etc. For HTTP/HTTPS services, the firewall/primary web interface would mostly just provide redirection services to other containers (using SNI if needed). Authentication services can be provided by an LDAP container (and replaced with something else like samba4 or Fedora Directory server).

Contribs would end up being OpenVZ containers, thus avoiding dependency problems. Most would be small (using hardlinked templates to original OS files).

This would have the advantage of service isolation, and maybe avoid the reboots that annoy me about SME updates (you only need to restart the service container that has updated, not the whole system).

Anyhow, just a thought.

Si

that's interesting but:
- it will require a complete re-design of SME
- it will require/limit HW choices (AFAIR)
- the best places to propose/discuss such an idea are bugzilla and the dev ML

just my 2c

Ciao
Stefano

[David Harper]

I realise that I'm a bit late to this party, so forgive me, but anyhoo...

Now that Horde has reached 3.2, Funambol works natively so long as 'realms' is disabled in the Horde config file (see this bug). So this means that you can synchronise between Outlook and Horde natively, and if you use this in combination with IMAP you have something pretty close to Exchange's base functionality.

For the full groupware you need to install Kronolith, Mnemo and Nag for Calendars, Notes and Tasks respectively. (Turba address book is pre-installed in SME.) You can also install MIMP, which is basically a clone of Outlook Mobile Access. All of these apps are already packaged by mrjhb3 and in smecontribs. Funambol is also a free download.

Now as to the shortcomings of this solution:

• No global address book / calendar etc
• No public folders
• Sharing content in Horde does not carry over into Outlook
• No MAPI - still uses Outlook in Internet mode
• Kludgy Horde interface
• "Some assembly required"

The kludgy interface can be addressed in SME8 by integrating DIMP, Horde's AJAX-interface project. Unfortuntely this can't be done on SME7 because DIMP requires PHP5.

I think that because Horde is already part of SME it may make sense to at least consider using it as a base, rather than replacing it wholesale with something else.

[edform]

Unfortuntely this can't be done on SME7 because DIMP requires PHP5.

John B's contribution includes DIMP and it works fine in SME 7.4

I think that because Horde is already part of SME it may make sense to at least consider using it as a base, rather than replacing it wholesale with something else.

I agree! The best solution of all would be a first class Ajax client for Horde, one with a professional looking set of widgets, rather than the current crude face of Horde - including DIMP.

Connectivity to Outlook is not a priority as far as I'm concerned - although I know many others think it essential. I'd rather have a new standard established based on the capabilities and facilities of a classic LAMP server, and with a client that replaces Outlook completely. As I grow weary of saying, this is the missing capability that holds back the Linux OS family from becoming the universally preferred server technology.

As an add on thought, following some days of experimental work on this area, I've realised that a simpler approach is possible [simpler than writing the Windows application I've been advocating for years that is] to interface the capabilities of a Linux groupware server to the desktop world. The component that's missing is a family of HTML display applications with no widgets of their own, one for each desktop OS - just windows that open with only the minimise, maximise and close buttons in the top corner so that an Ajax client to a groupware server - and for that matter lots of other possible LAMP based applications - can be displayed with only their own personalities on view.

Ed Form

[David Harper]

John B's contribution includes DIMP and it works fine in SME 7.4

Ah, my mistake. I must check that out.

As I grow weary of saying, this is the missing capability that holds back the Linux OS family from becoming the universally preferred server technology.

I agree completely. However, in the medium term, Outlook compatibility is a must. In the same way that Samba is a key technology because it supports Windows domains, there has to be a way to interface between Linux groupware and Win32 clients - of which Outlook is currently dominant.