Topic: Evaluating SME

[thomasch]

I was referring to Charlie's newbie friendly comment. 

rgmhtt,

Welcome to the jungle.
Meet Charlie Brady, our 'beastie' core developer.. 
don't be shocked if he is very strict to forum rules like : search before you ask/don't ask same question twice, RTFM, don't report problems here:report to bugzilla, blah blah... 
Some people especially SME server newbie can't accept it and get mad at the way he communicate it..

Put that all behind, SME server is a great server distro.. believe me.

thomasch

[steever]

I'm no newbie to SME but I still don't like rude comments.  And answering a question with

RTFM

should never be condoned.  (Not that Charlie has ever done that).

Steve (SME user since 2003).

[janet]

steever

Is it the F part of RTFM that irks you (and one possible implied meaning), or is it just that someone is saying RTM (read the manual), rather than answering more specifically.
Some people have a rude meaning for the F whereas others have a more tasteful meaning, usually people will (wrongly) assume the worst version. Some people seem to very quickly and easily get hot under the collar over implied meanings, problem being they are the ones who implied it, rather than the original poster.

If the information/answer is indeed in the manual, and the question is answered with a RTM suggestion (without the F), whats wrong with that ? (ie I don't see anything wrong with it). No need to repeat what's already been written and published.

[steever]

Exactly, Mary.  The meaning of the F in RTFM is pretty offensive.  Everyone knows what it stands for and it's just plain rude. I've seen it three or four times in the forum.   RTM is an OK response, I suppose,  particularly it it's hyperlinked to the part of the manual or wiki that will help.

I've noticed over the last 12 months that the forums have become much unfriendlier.  I hope we can try to amend this.  It was the friendliness of the community that first attracted me to this distro in the first place.

Steve

[janet]

steever

The meaning of the F in RTFM is pretty offensive.  Everyone knows what it stands for and it's just plain rude.

 

Many people do not attach the rude meaning (the one I assume you refer to) to the F letter, they have other quite unoffensive meanings for it. It all depends on the reader and what they imply the original poster is saying/meaning.

I've noticed over the last 12 months that the forums have become much unfriendlier.

I disagree somewhat. I think that certain readers/posters are jumping to conclusions, and are more hot headed and intolerant in their responses to perfectly pleasant suggestions etc (when read literally and without implied meaning). The issue is that these hot headed types imply the original poster is suggesting something bad and get annoyed by it.

For example I have had dealings with some high profile users of this community, and I know that everything they say is well meaning, well intended and not at all harsh or unpleasant, but they have been attacked many times for supposed unfriendly and harsh responses.

The unfriendliness and criticism was generated by the "temperamental & reactive" respondent and NOT by the original poster.

I'd ask people to be much more tolerant of suggestions and not to automatically take offense and become emotional about a technical suggestion, which includes NOT implying a bad meaning, as in many/most/all cases there was NO bad meaning ever intended or in fact present when read literally.

I also speak from personal experience, as well as observation of posts of other people I have some personal knowledge of.

[thomasch]

I am sorry I never means that 'F' in rude way..  ..  Apologize..

English is not my mother tongue and to me RTM and RTFM has the same meaning,
I think it in positive way. I always think F is 'Fine '.

I see 'RTFM' term everywhere everyday for years since 1994 makes the 'rudeness' of RTFM abbrev become 'no rude at all' to me.. RTFM also a more popular term than RTM.

And to me RTM or RT-Fine-M is an OK response..

thomasch

[janet]

thomasch

...I think it in positive way. I always think F is 'Fine '.

Thank you for confirming that there are some amongst us who do not automatically connotate bad or rude meanings for popular abbreviations/phrases.

Those who choose to see & imply "bad", need to drop the attitude and think more positively and look for the good intent behind posted suggestions.

[rgmhtt]

Thread has taken a turn or two, so allow this 'Newbie' an Introduction...

I am Robert Moskowitz of ICSAlabs, an Independent Division of Verizon Business Systems.  I work out of my home in the Detroit area with an extensive testing lab.  I have always supplied my own FIle Share/Print Serve services here for my work and family.  I have been running an NT Domain at home since I finished the NT 3.1 beta back in my Chrysler days.

I sat in front of my first Teletype in '66 as a High School junior; BASIC was 2 years old.  I have been working in the Computer field since '74 and been with ICSAlabs since '98.

My area of expertise is in security protocols.  I have been active in the IETF since '94 and IEEE 802 since '01.  You will find my name associated with a number of standards like Private Addressing, IPsec, and WiFi security.

I moderated my first discussion list on a PCBoard network in '85.  I have no idea of how many maillists and forums I have membership in.  I tend to be active in a handful each day.  These days my main work is with HIP (RFC 4423), IPv6, SIP, and 802.11s (meshes).

As far as RTFM, F frequently means foobared.  I spent a day going through the SME wiki before posting here.  IMNSHO, SME's docs there are foobared, but I quite understand the challenge of a community like SME's to develop and maintain documentation.  Thus the list and one hopes, good searching functions.  Google can be your friend or your enemy (Pages' father was one of my profs at MSU; remember him as a little kid).  Of course my Dyslexia does not help in all of this, other than superior visualization skills (read "The Gift of Dyslexia").

At this point my goal is to bring up two test SME systems and move them into production.  One will be a replacement for my 12+ year old NTserver. The other for my 3 year old Scalix server.  There may be a couple WINS systems in there, or if I can get a good 'standalone' WINS configuration, I would run it on some of my other systems here and avoid more dedicated systems (or having to get into VM/XEN setups).

So for now I am a nudge, asking questions.  After I get a feel for things, I may be a aid to others.  In terms of NT Domain knowledge, I am just a user and there HAS to be people that know a LOT more than me.  And I am NOT a programmer; never coded in C, though I did do a bit in B.  I am an architect and theoretician.  I DO know a bit about security goo...

[janet]

rgmhtt

As far as RTFM, F frequently means foobared. ......
 I spent a day going through the SME wiki before posting here.  IMNSHO, SME's docs there are foobared,....

I looked up foobared, but I'm not really sure I understand or interpret what you are saying/meaning.
Please define with plain english words.

[rgmhtt]

Well, it is the programmer's alternative to fubar.  In networking, it allowed us to talk about system foo and system bar, or domain foo.bar.

But we all knew it was really fubar....

Scott O. Bradner (one of the original IETFers, and likes to use just his initials in email addresses, maybe Charlie knows him!) said a long time ago:

The amount of clue in the Internet is a constant.
The Internet is growing geometrically.
I leave the math to you.

Actually the documentation provided is quite good.  It is when something is missing and you don't know it until you hit it....

[cactus]

So for now I am a nudge, asking questions.  After I get a feel for things, I may be a aid to others.

That is very well and is considered as desired community behavior at contribs... so continue

[JoshuaR]

I know this post is a few days old, so my apologies for that, but I had to throw my 2 cents worth into the above tangent...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTFM

It's been my understanding that read the fantastic manual, read the fine manual, read the field manual, etc, are all ways of politely avoiding the original intention of the phrase.

I've noticed over the last 12 months that the forums have become much unfriendlier.  I hope we can try to amend this.  It was the friendliness of the community that first attracted me to this distro in the first place.

I have to say that I agree with that in some regards, I do not know whether they have become unfriendlier, or the resposes are easier to take that way. Since you can't convey facial expressions or emotion (unless you use emoticons I guess ), it is sometimes easy to misinterpret how a post was intended.

Thank you for confirming that there are some amongst us who do not automatically connotate bad or rude meanings for popular abbreviations/phrases.

You see, if I look at that quote in the light of a newbie, who did not know that you are a very helpful poster who takes time out of the day to post and contribute to this community in a large way... I probably would think that your above post was unfriendly.

I direct all this in a general sense, not particularly at anyone...

I may be out of line, but I think that perhaps since we are all here for the same reason, it doesn't hurt to put a couple extra lines in to show that your post is not unfriendly. Even a smiley can lighten the post and show it was well-intended

That's my two cents up...
--Josh

[janet]

JoshuaR

You see, if I look at that quote in the light of a newbie, who did not know that you are a very helpful poster who takes time out of the day to post and contribute to this community in a large way... I probably would think that your above post was unfriendly.

Therein lies the problem. People want to ascribe more meaning than the literal meaning. We are working here in a text based medium, so it's incorrect to read more meaning beyond what the written word says.
I think it's a foible of human personality to identify negativity, even where it doesn't exist.

My words were a simple thank you, nothing more.
"Thank you for confirming......"

Why would you (from a newbie perspective) even contemplate thinking that the statement was unfriendly ?

I am skilled in english language, and understand well how to create a cynical  or sarcastic "tone", but ascribing that where none exits is a quite unnecessary association.

I never use smileys or similar, just let the words do the talking.
If I want to make a joke or be nasty, I'm sure my use of english language is good enough to do that without needing a funny little face, and there will be no doubt as to the meaning of my words.

[JoshuaR]

Why would you (from a newbie perspective) even contemplate thinking that the statement was unfriendly ?

Simply because the only times that I hear someone 'in the flesh' say something along the lines of "there are some amongst us" or "some of us" etc, it is said with a sarcastic tone.

I knew what you were saying wasn't meant in any sarcastic way, that's why I felt it safe to use your quote as an example.  It's my opinion that we derive the meaning of a lot of what's said from how we have heard phrases used in the past (eg. all the various opinions on RTFM).
This article too makes a good point: http://www.reellifewisdom.com/communication_ninety_percent_of_what_youre_saying_isnt_coming_out_of_your_mouth

I may very well be incorrect...
I just wanted put it out there that it can't hurt to make sure our meaning is conveyed in a friendly manner.

[janet]

JoshuaR

....and as a counterpoint, I'd reply to all:

I just wanted put it out there that it can't hurt to read friendly intent into all posts in preference to other less friendly meanings.