Topic: Can I ask a question please?

[guest22]

Hi,

I don't know you personally, but I want to share a question with you.

Why do we have a very limited number of developers, whilst we have over 4000 forum users?

I understand that many users are just that, 'users' and use SME Server in their personal or business environment, and that's perfectly fine for that is the whole objective of SME Server. Use it.

But...

we need to take care of progress and future developments of SME Server. So I was wondering if there are a few people out their willing to put some extra time into this project. Eager to learn under the guidance of some veterans.

It's not a day job, but a few hours here and there that you spend on learning and trying to get things done.

What do you think?

Regards,
guest

[stephdl]

IMHO the world stows in two categories, those who give to this projects (giver), and those who take without returns (tacker). This project can be sustainable only if the taker part
is not as disproportionate as today.

You have plenty ways to help the project and now where we lack of people is in Bugzilla.

Developers, Patch commiters, testers, bug sorter...

I'm sure that all the people who have the ability to develop, they will take time to learn, to explain to the people involved what they need to understand. Of course we are not coders everybody, but I believe that each of us can help the project.

Some hours by weeks, by month given and we will have the best operating system

[Xavier.A]

@RequestedDeletion

Just my opinion :
If you know the difference between git and cvs/svn then you can understand why developers won't be able to work for SME Server

Why do we have a very limited number of developers, whilst we have over 4000 forum users?

The question is not why but what for ?
How many developers for Debian, Ubuntu, Drupal, Joomla, OpenERP, Bootstrap, jQuery ...etc
One of the reasons could be the choice of the SCM and the project management but it could be because the project is not as opened that it could be. Developers need to find motivation in a project, it could be for love, for money, to learn, to be known,etc... SME Server is not attractive enough.

Eager to learn under the guidance of some veterans.

That is a very good idea, and may be the SME Server project could take benefits of pair programming method for example.

[Stefano]

@RequestedDeletion

Just my opinion :
If you know the difference between git and cvs/svn then you can understand why developers won't be able to work for SME Server

Please define, thank you..

[ReetP]

Just my opinion :
If you know the difference between git and cvs/svn then you can understand why developers won't be able to work for SME Server

I don't see that it makes any much difference. If you want to add code then speak to developers on the list and you can join in. It isn't hard. It's a team effort. You might not get everything you wish for immediately, but the more you do the better chance you have of influencing the future.

The question is not why but what for ?
How many developers for Debian, Ubuntu, Drupal, Joomla, OpenERP, Bootstrap, jQuery ...etc
One of the reasons could be the choice of the SCM and the project management but it could be because the project is not as opened that it could be. Developers need to find motivation in a project, it could be for love, for money, to learn, to be known,etc...

Plenty of forums visitors and users. Motivated enough to use it, but not help develop. The question is why they won't contribute.

SME Server is not attractive enough.

In what way ? There is a lot of work going on behind the scenes right now and hopefully there will be some positive changes in the very near future. Regardless, there are still a lot of active users, so it can't be that unatttractive.

That is a very good idea, and may be the SME Server project could take benefits of pair programming method for example.

All you need to do is write on the dev list and someone will help.

[hawk]

for my own part, the lack of knowledge as a coder and possibly making an ass out of myself.
I understand you are looking for young people, the last time i did any coding was in the days of DOS and used basica.

If someone could point me in the right direction i am willing to learn, in the last few months i made myself more available to spending more time with SME, and have become a financial contributer.

I have often tested new contribs and hopefully will be able to do this on a more regular basis.

thanks
i can see a very good future for SME

[stephdl]

thanks hawk, as you can see in my signature, there are two channels on irc where you can ask questions. I started to  play with RPM at 40 year, I understand what you are meaning

[Xavier.A]

@Stefano

Please define, thank you..

just read this posts (with chromium/chrome if you need) :
http://www.geek-directeur-technique.com/2009/03/31/gestion-de-sources-versions-de-logiciels
can you do that with CVS ? If you want more developers for SME Server, SME Server needs a VCS less centralized, no? Git could be a solution (i like git) but mercurial or bazaar are good too !

@ReetP

In what way ? There is a lot of work going on behind the scenes right now and hopefully there will be some positive changes in the very near future. Regardless, there are still a lot of active users, so it can't be that unatttractive.

Ok, I'm surprised but why not, and how did you communicate about those great changes?

@hawk

for my own part, the lack of knowledge as a coder and possibly making an ass out of myself.
I understand you are looking for young people, the last time i did any coding was in the days of DOS and used basica.

If someone could point me in the right direction i am willing to learn, in the last few months i made myself more available to spending more time with SME, and have become a financial contributer.

Dos and Basica (Qbasic ?) were very good, I learnt it when I was very young with my amstrad and after with Micral at college.
I'm still not a specialist of SME Server, I'm coming from the C/C++/Java world and before I started to try to develop something for SME Server, Perl was for me a language for Kid
Maybe I'm wrong but if you know a little bit of algorithmic you could develop for SME Server.

From my short experience, you need to know(not be an expert) :
Panel : Bash, Perl, HTML5 (html4/xhtml), CSS3, Javascript
Contribs : Bash, Perl, RPM code, ...?
Software for SME Server : Perl, Python, PHP, Erlang, ...?

Maybe a SME expert could help you to choose the good starting point. 

Personally, I'm using Eclipse Luna for C/Java/Perl/Python/RPM test, and Aptana Studio 3 ( AS3 = Eclipse Kepler) for Html/CSS/Javascript/PHP with GIT as VCS. An integrated development environment could help you to develop and to find easily errors in your code.

[stephdl]

We all love Git, and I'm sure that all people involved in the sme project use it individually, and the move to GIT is something planned. For me the CVS vs GIT is not the crucial question of why people are not involved enough. I mean, the developer must adapt himself to the work environment, otherwise he will do the same thing all his life.
However if someone like shad, gordon rowell, or anybody who love to play with code want to come in the team, of course they are welcome, but any people who is reading this thread can be a good hope and a help in the development of the SME server.

We are not all good coders, we won't be good coders all, but we can help the project.

I have, we have lost a good friend recently, a irreplaceable mate, his job was to sort bugs and to moderate discussions.

All of us can do something....please find where you will be the best.

[guest22]

stephdl is right, GIT will eventually come. Don't forget, we started with the development of SME9 little over a year ago, released SME8.1 in the process, killed a fair amount of bugs, adjusted the wiki. And now we are prepping infra changes. So GIT is not our TOP priority, but eventually will come if getting organized to be able to make a switch.

One of the most important reasons for sticking with CVS is the very very tight integration in the SME Server fully automated build system. This ecosystem of back end systems is 'gold' for SME Server development, so that won't be given up any time soonish. I believe that submitting a simple patch to CVS is enough for that whole eco-system to produce a new RPM that will be available in smetest repo, for all to test. Pretty impressive!! (Thanks Shad) 

So a fair amount of workload has been moved from one side to other by a lot of people. And still we need more assistance.

Many 'bugs' are are reported because a sys admin stumbles on an issue that he has a personal/professional interest in. Once the issue is resolved, many of those sys admins go silent again for a long time. Looking at the comments that go with each bug, it seems to me that there are many knowledgeable en skilled people in the SME user base, and I wish they would stick around and help out, and not wait until the next time they (by accident or org/infra changes) stumble on an issue that effect them. 

Anyway, senior developers are always watching the devinfo mailing list and the bug tracker. devinfo mailing list is a good source for asking assistance, the bug tracker is a good place to submit your patches.

But next to technical developers, there is nothing wrong with sharing your ideas and suggestions. Healthy discussions like those will certainly be valuable for the SME road map when the NFR (New Fueature Request) hits the bug tracker.

So let's not focus on our current 'limitations' but on our joint capabilities.

Cheers,
guest

[ReetP]

@ReetP
Ok, I'm surprised but why not, and how did you communicate about those great changes?

When the time is right, which is not quite yet, and for other technical reasons which I will not bore you with.

Prior Preparation and Planning Prevent Piss Poor Performance..... We don't want to go off half cock.

Ultimately, in spite of changes that are happening we need more people to help as we are very thin on the ground, and many of us are frantically busy with work.

Join the dev list or chat on Freenode #SME_Server or contact me directly. We will be delighted to be able to help people get involved. You don't need to be a coding guru - there are lots of things that need doing. A willingness to learn is all that is required.

The more involved you are, the more you can help dictate the future.

[Stefano]

@Stefano just read this posts (with chromium/chrome if you need) :
http://www.geek-directeur-technique.com/2009/03/31/gestion-de-sources-versions-de-logiciels

sorry, but I usually don't use translator because often the result is really a mess
I'm quite sure there's something similar in english, out there

can you do that with CVS ? If you want more developers for SME Server, SME Server needs a VCS less centralized, no? Git could be a solution (i like git) but mercurial or bazaar are good too !

I know GIT, CVS and SVN too, but sincerely I can't understand how CVS can not make you (generally speaking) partecipate in SME coding..
as you (already and so many times) have been told, join the developers and don't hide behind a finger
you are welcome, always.. You are only requested to share your work, time, knowledge and to follow the rules, nothing more, nothing less.

[guest22]

On average and at any given time there are about 60 to 80 contribs.org visitors reading the forums or the wiki.

Care to join us visitor?

[stephdl]

Please do not hesitate to give us your statement of 'new' users, this is principally you that we want to hear.

[mmccarn]

Why do we have a very limited number of developers, whilst we have over 4000 forum users?

My answer has two parts:
1) I don't know if you would consider me a developer or not -- I've contributed 2 - 4 bug fixes since joining the forums in 2004, but lots of forum posts and a wiki page or two. 
2) When I do try to 'develop', I tend to get dragged off elsewhere, leaving the specific task/bug at hand incomplete.

Since I have been unsuccessful at doing what I would consider 'development', I try to be as helpful as I can in the forums and on the wiki.  Does that count?