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How to use SME also as NAS, provide fundamental steps

Offline UserOfHalde

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Re: How to use SME also as NAS, provide fundamental steps
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2015, 11:00:29 AM »
Code: [Select]
I answered you, did you read it ?
Alternative 2
Yes i have, thank you 😊 Janet. In my last post ✉ I only want to mention 4 other who want that I be more verbose.

Offline Stefano

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Re: How to use SME also as NAS, provide fundamental steps
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2015, 11:03:37 AM »
You won't be able to mount a NTFS disk and to share it the way you want to do
You've been suggested how to do in the most easy and reliable way
Anyway,  it's up to you

Offline janet

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Re: How to use SME also as NAS, provide fundamental steps
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2015, 11:33:59 AM »
UserOfHalde

Well I too think that what you want to do is not the best idea, but such things are doable, if you like to live with risk.

I was referring to using ext4 formatted disks when using the howto referred to earlier (not NTFS).

Re NTFS to ext4 conversion, did you Google.
This might help, but I think it might take longer than just copying data to a new drive, & be quite risky if you do not have a copy of the data on another drive.
Hard drives are relatively cheap these days, a black WD is cheap enough.
Saving money on a spare drive may result in loss of all your data, is the cost saving worth the inconvenience of data loss ?
See
http://askubuntu.com/questions/63022/convert-filesystem-ntfs-ext4


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Offline UserOfHalde

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Re: How to use SME also as NAS, provide fundamental steps
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2015, 12:25:57 PM »
janet

It's not just that drive costs, it's about conection possibilitys on mainboard, power consumtion costs, and the question is -
two cheap drives, or one that works.

Offline Stefano

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Re: How to use SME also as NAS, provide fundamental steps
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2015, 12:31:36 PM »
well, it seems you're more interested in power consumption that data security/availability/reliability..
more than 2TB of data.. hope nothing important ;-)


Offline janet

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Re: How to use SME also as NAS, provide fundamental steps
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2015, 01:22:19 PM »
UserOfHalde

Quote
It's not just that drive costs, it's about conection possibilitys on mainboard, power consumtion costs, and the question is -
two cheap drives, or one that works.
I do not understand those points at all.
If you can connect 2 mounted drives, then you can connect 2 drives in software RAID1, both ways still use 2 SATA ports
Two mounted drives serving different ibays will still use power, or 2 drives in RAID1 array, not much difference.

The last point makes no sense to me at all - "two cheap drives or one that works".
It seems totally the opposite to what you are proposing.
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Online ReetP

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Re: How to use SME also as NAS, provide fundamental steps
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2015, 01:28:07 PM »
It's not just that drive costs, it's about conection possibilitys on mainboard, power consumtion costs, and the question is -
two cheap drives, or one that works.

RAID - Redundant Array of INEXPENSIVE Drives.....

Quote
please forget raid1 2 3, raid. Beacuse, because i am perhaps superstitious what ever...
no raid. please can't read it anymore.

If you are superstitious you SHOULD be using RAID at the very least, and an external backup as well.

If not you have 2 x 2Tb = 4TB that is at risk. Are you backing it all up ?

If you have 1 x 2TB RAID array you can always grow it if you need more space. By the time you need more space, drives will have got cheaper.... power consumption - you are running two drives individually or 2 drives as RAID. Same drives, same power.

Quite simply if you care about your data, listen to the people here who are trying to save you from a world of pain. They know that in 6 months or a year you are going to be back here saying 'my drives are broken help me recover data - I need Help NOW' etc.

Save yourself that problem !

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1. Read the Manual
2. Read the Wiki
3. Don't ask for support on Unsupported versions of software
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Offline DanB35

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Re: How to use SME also as NAS, provide fundamental steps
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2015, 03:29:39 PM »
UserOfHalde,

The more you write here, the less sense you make.  The configuration you're proposing involves at least three hard drives--one (or more) for the SME server, and one additional for each of the two users.  This will use more power than the two-drive solution I propose (though only marginally; the idle power consumption of a 3.5" hard drive is negligible*)--so power consumption does not favor your solution, as minuscule a factor as it is anyway.

As far as mainboard connections, the solution I propose requires two SATA ports on the mainboard.  No doubt there are boards out there with only one, but they're few and far between--and boards that would be suitable to run a server, with only one port, are rarer still.  Your solution requires at least one port, plus a means of connecting two additional drives.  If these are to be mounted internally, then you require at least two SATA ports, at least the equal of my proposal.  If externally, your options are eSATA or USB.  eSATA works pretty well, but it's a rare board that will have two ports (SATA port expanders are the very work of the devil; don't even consider using them if you value your data at all).  USB works very poorly in terms of long-term stability and reliability, and doesn't perform very well either.

With respect to your remark of "two cheap drives, or one that works"--I really have no idea what you're trying to suggest.  My proposal involves setting up a RAID1 array, which would have two mirrored disks.  To lose your data, both of those disks would need to fail near-simultaneously.  For a single external disk to have a lower chance of data loss than this, it would need to be at least an order of magnitude more reliable.  Sure, if you spend six figures on a SAN, you might see that kind of difference in reliability--but you won't see it with individual external drives.

As to your pathological aversion to RAID, I don't know what to say.  If you care about your data, RAID is the best way going to protect it while in use (offline backups are also a very good idea, and protect against things that RAID doesn't, but recovery from them is often more involved).  To be sure, there can be catastrophic failures that will result in data loss on even the best-designed array--but they'll be much less common that the failures that will destroy data on a single disk.  I'd also point out that your SME installation, unless you've taken affirmative steps to the contrary, is already set up as a (degraded) RAID1.

Of course, it's your server, and you can administer it however you want.  Janet's given you links to documentation on how to do what you propose.  But you appear to have your heart set on a design that:
  • Consumes (marginally) more electrical power
  • Provides lower performance
  • Is more complicated to configure
  • Is less well supported
  • Provides less (really, no) protection for your data

This has a few of us scratching our heads and wondering why.

I've lost data to drive failures before.  It sucks.  I don't want it to happen again.  That's why my SME server runs on RAID1, it's backed up to a multiply-redundant RAID array, and that's backed up offsite.

* A WD Red 4 TB, to use one example, consumes about 4 watts at idle, which works out to 35 KWh/year.  Power costs vary widely, of course, but with what I pay, this is less than US$5/year.
......

Offline UserOfHalde

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Re: How to use SME also as NAS, provide fundamental steps
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2015, 03:32:30 PM »
UserOfHalde
I do not understand those points at all.
If you can connect 2 mounted drives, then you can connect 2 drives in software RAID1, both ways still use 2 SATA ports
Two mounted drives serving different ibays will still use power, or 2 drives in RAID1 array, not much difference.

Are you kidding me?
4 TB vs. 2 TB   

Quote

The last point makes no sense to me at all - "two cheap drives or one that works".
It seems totally the opposite to what you are proposing.

WD is scrap.

you mentioned that drives are cheap...

if you are worried about safety, you have to buy any server hdds, you have to compare many drives, in the end you take that that is not cheap, two of them is a little bit to expensive, and four of them not affordable.

than you have to adjust your whole system, mean ECC memory,  UPS, fireportection finally. anytime you will end up by a datacenter.

i mean there are good drives and there are cheap drives, and hope :).
i allready had cheap drives in raid. And on a beautifull sunday morning both said good bye with all my nice memories. f... .
 raid? i don't give a shit. sorry. and even more so if the rest of the system is far away from fulfiling, meeting server requirements.
 
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 03:41:20 PM by UserOfHalde »

Online ReetP

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Re: How to use SME also as NAS, provide fundamental steps
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2015, 04:14:46 PM »
Are you kidding me?
4 TB vs. 2 TB   

Lunacy or security - your choice

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WD is scrap.

I have a lot of people I know using them professionally and they would disagree with you.... what do you think are great drives then ?

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you mentioned that drives are cheap...

Depends on the drive....

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if you are worried about safety, you have to buy any server hdds, you have to compare many drives, in the end you take that that is not cheap, two of them is a little bit to expensive, and four of them not affordable.

No you don't HAVE to buy server drives. You can, but it is not such a big requirement if you have several in a RAID

Quote
than you have to adjust your whole system, mean ECC memory,  UPS, fireportection finally. anytime you will end up by a datacenter.

Rubbish. For basic security the most likely thing to back flip into the lava is the spinning rust. Yes, upgrading some of the other bits would be lovely but on a minimal budget get the most important things right first.

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i mean there are good drives and there are cheap drives, and hope :).

And good and bad luck too, if you believe in fairies and that sort of thing.

Quote
i allready had cheap drives in raid. And on a beautifull sunday morning both said good bye with all my nice memories. f... .
 raid? i don't give a shit. sorry. and even more so if the rest of the system is far away from fulfilling, meeting server requirements.
 

Mind the language please, Timothy. So no backup then..... and how are you going to back up your 4TB ?

You already know the price you really pay for a) cheap drives and b) not keeping a backup, and you would have thought you would have learned by now.

Ultimately you pay your money and takes your chances. Personally I'd have a good hunt on ebay and get a decent second hand board 'bundle' or say an older HP server. Then grab 3 or 4 smaller (and cheaper) drives and build a proper array. That's pretty well how I started. It cost pips. You can also have a hunt for computer recyclers - they often off load stuff dirt cheap - personally I rarely buy new kit and just hunt for 'nearly new' second hand for a fraction of the price. Have a look at say a ML310 G3 which would be fine as a starter kit. Second hand bits are plentiful and cheap.

People here are just trying to help you do the right thing. Most are pretty seasoned at this sort of thing. Most seem to think your original idea was not a good one, and no amount of your writing is going to change that. So you have a choice. Take some good advice, or take a chance.

B. Rgds
John
...
1. Read the Manual
2. Read the Wiki
3. Don't ask for support on Unsupported versions of software
4. I have a job, wife, and kids and do this in my spare time. If you want something fixed, please help.

Bugs are easier than you think: http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help

If you love SME and don't want to lose it, join in: http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation

Offline UserOfHalde

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Re: How to use SME also as NAS, provide fundamental steps
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2015, 04:34:48 PM »
janet, many thanks again

Offline janet

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Re: How to use SME also as NAS, provide fundamental steps
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2015, 04:59:25 PM »
UserOfHalde

I did not say or mean to use cheap as in poor quality drives.
I meant you can get good quality drives at what I consider is a cheap cost, or to say it another way, the cost of the drives is not particularly significant as the actual dollar cost is not extravagantly high.
Having an extra redundant drive in the server is a small price to pay for security of data. The cost of time to gather, create or recreate the data is much much greater than the cost of an extra drive.
If you want 4Tb of storage, just buy 2 x 4Tb drives, put them in RAID1, use the default features of SME to limit or control access by users. The 2Tb vs 4Tb argument is irrelevant, single drives in a server is a bad policy.
Make sure you have multiple redundant backups as well, ideally with historical ageing to allow restoration to a date of your choosing.

If you lost all your data due to concurrent drive failures, then you obviously did not have a good backup strategy in place.
You carry on about good quality drives & equipment etc, but don't have backups, are you kidding me !

Everything will fail one day or another, as a system administrator you have to cater for that without loss of data, or minimal loss in a really worst case scenario situation depending on what your tolerance is.
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Offline UserOfHalde

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Re: How to use SME also as NAS, provide fundamental steps
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2015, 11:26:07 PM »
i choose no raid no lvm but in the end despite that choosing i get damn lvm md0 and raid1, how to prevent raid and lvm ?


Offline Stefano

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Re: How to use SME also as NAS, provide fundamental steps
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2015, 11:31:11 PM »
well.. apart the fact that /boot will ever be in raid0, your best bet is to read the documentation and to report here HOW did you do the things, in verbose mode ;-)

moreover, please control your language (second time in the same topic you've been warned), thank you

Offline janet

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Re: How to use SME also as NAS, provide fundamental steps
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2015, 02:07:59 AM »
UserOfHalde

Read this
http://wiki.contribs.org/Booting

SME server does have some limitations & maybe you are reaching those or perhaps the switches you entered at installation time were not quite correct.

Tell us exactly what you did at install time
and
show output of
cat /proc/mdstat
and
fdisk -l

« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 02:09:42 AM by janet »
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