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SME 11 : choose upstream

Offline Jean-Philippe Pialasse

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SME 11 : choose upstream
« on: June 14, 2021, 08:05:43 AM »
With CentOS 8 switch to stream, as many of you knows, the idea of SME to stick closely as downstream stable RHEL distro  force us to switch to a different project.


Currently the available solutions are:

- Rocky Linux 8, by the original founder of CentOS, made by the community for the community. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocky_Linux
- Alma Linux 8, by Cloud Linux. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlmaLinux
- Oracle Linux 8, By Oracle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_Linux


Two of the three are backed by a corporation directly distributing it.
They should be all binary compatible with Rhel 8. Hence, it should even be possible to move from one to another, but it would be better to choose one and stick to it at least for all SME 11 life.

This post is intended to be a discussion before we commit to one of those.

Please feel free to ask questions, add some thoughts ...

Offline ReetP

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2021, 09:23:42 AM »
Personally community first, so Rocky.
Second choice Alma.
Oracle over my cold dead body.... :lol:
...
1. Read the Manual
2. Read the Wiki
3. Don't ask for support on Unsupported versions of software
4. I have a job, wife, and kids and do this in my spare time. If you want something fixed, please help.

Bugs are easier than you think: http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help

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Offline TerryF

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2021, 10:49:13 AM »
Definitely rocky no question, others look good trust being the big thing

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Offline sages

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2021, 01:18:03 PM »
Rocky
...

Offline mab974

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2021, 09:17:00 PM »
Rocky first.
but the alternatives are not that numerous.
And Rocky seems so new, just promising for now but I don’t follow evolution closely.

Offline Jean-Philippe Pialasse

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2021, 10:31:07 PM »
I love the philosophy by the community for the community, but we wll have to watch closely on next releases in the few month to come if they manage to get on the schedule.

Oracle has demonstrated they were able to folow up on release of OL 8... but this is backed by Oracle and there are lovers and hater...

Alma has managed to get the 2 first releases in due time, and are backed by Cloud Linux with 1Million $ a year.

Backed by a corporation is a security in term of efficiency, but corporation could change its policy, as we saw with CentOS/RedHat...


I tends too to go for Rocky, because of the community based as we are, but keep a close look on the release for the next months and see if it seems ok for the long term.

Offline ReetP

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2021, 11:45:39 PM »
Because of the Herculean work by JP, Fagey & others we have the luxury of an OS supported for a few years.

I strongly suggest we use this time wisely to build for the future and do some housekeeping chores.

We can keep watch on progress elsewhere and be ready to react and change direction as required.

A luxury indeed. Let's not waste it.
...
1. Read the Manual
2. Read the Wiki
3. Don't ask for support on Unsupported versions of software
4. I have a job, wife, and kids and do this in my spare time. If you want something fixed, please help.

Bugs are easier than you think: http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help

If you love SME and don't want to lose it, join in: http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation

Offline Jean-Philippe Pialasse

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2021, 12:00:45 AM »
2024/06/30 is almost tomorrow ...

I agree not to precipitate, but I do not want to publish another version 8 months after the EOL of the previous one ;)

Offline ReetP

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2021, 12:03:37 AM »
Indeed.

But we have a few weeks :-)
...
1. Read the Manual
2. Read the Wiki
3. Don't ask for support on Unsupported versions of software
4. I have a job, wife, and kids and do this in my spare time. If you want something fixed, please help.

Bugs are easier than you think: http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help

If you love SME and don't want to lose it, join in: http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation

Offline TerryF

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2021, 03:20:32 AM »
Oh yeah, pick a winner we have time..Rocky is very active just now, wonder if we can get an in have to have a read and see if they are having sub groups like mcentos did that was not very welcoming :-(

For now Rocky looks the good, and they seemed to have not rushed to produce a product, steady and solid, sound familiar, CentOS, considering who is behind Rocky its no wonder
 
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Offline TerryF

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2021, 03:21:57 AM »
and to add, have Rocky and Oracle VMs running happily on the little microserver :-) havent tried Alma

PS: went somewhere that has power and a desktop I can use :-) for a short time anyway
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Offline smeghead

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2021, 05:26:40 PM »
According to wikipedia (the acknowledged authority on everything as we know) there are 10 Centos based distros to choose from as of now:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_distributions#CentOS/RHEL-based

Asianux
ClearOS
Fermi Linux LTS
Miracle Linux
Oracle Linux
Red Flag Linux
Rocks Cluster Distribution
Rocky Linux
Scientific Linux
Amazon Linux 2

Some are an obvious no. but thoughts on them all .. some included have already been mentioned.
..................

Offline idp_qbn

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2021, 06:58:39 AM »
I believe Scientific Linux is no longer being developed.
see https://linux.web.cern.ch/#update-on-centos-linux-strategy

CENTOS no longer provides a long-term stable base so nor does anything based on CENTOS.
If the wiser heads at CERN have given up on CENTOS perhaps we should take notice of them.

Rocky seems to be picking up where CENTOS left off, at least that is their stated aim.
Rocky gets my vote.

Cheers
Ian
___________________
Sydney, NSW, Australia

Offline Mike R

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2022, 03:26:43 AM »
Ok, so Rocky Linux seems to be the favorite.
Now maybe this is a dumb question because you guys are more knowledgeable than me but if you guys are still in the process of choosing, why version 8 and not 9?
What are the reasons for not skipping a version if SME 11 still needs to be developed?
Just trying to think out of the box here so don't bite my head off when this is a dumb question.

Offline TerryF

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2022, 04:45:48 AM »
Just trying to think out of the box here so don't bite my head off when this is a dumb question.

There will be other reasons but one that I have come across and looked is the change that red Hat has made re cpu to EL9 see belwo and other links and news you may find, will end the life of a few servers, my little N54L Microserver as an exmple

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2060839

https://forums.rockylinux.org/t/el9-will-require-x86-64-v2-support/5311

I use Proxmox with VMs of sme10, cemtos, windows primarily for testing purposes, Rocky9 and other RH9 derivatives all kernel panic, cant use the host option as the base cpu is not V2, turns out my I7 desktop the same not V2. So for me, future I need to purchase some new/used hardware to run any of the RH9 based systems..just one of those things. but annoying.

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Offline ReetP

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2022, 12:28:46 AM »
There are usually quite big jumps between versions.

A lot of stuff can get deprecated as Terry has found out.

When (a huge "when") we migrate the build system we may be able to build both versions at the same time, but that is some way off right now.

In the meantime, the more people who help us - there are jobs for all skill levels - the more we can do.

It's up to you all as a community, not just the few of us currently.
...
1. Read the Manual
2. Read the Wiki
3. Don't ask for support on Unsupported versions of software
4. I have a job, wife, and kids and do this in my spare time. If you want something fixed, please help.

Bugs are easier than you think: http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help

If you love SME and don't want to lose it, join in: http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation

Offline Mike R

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2022, 12:39:38 AM »
I also use a proxmox with SME 10 VM's on it.
But you are right, that shift to x86-64-v2 is scary.
Not sure if my server's processor will support that.
It never gets easier, does it and I'm sure they have more reasons that make it impossible to skip a version.
Just wanted to ask because, just maybe, if it was possible, that would make the eol of SME11 that much further away that it would give you guys some breathing room and just maybe you could do things you would normally not have the time for.
Well, that's probably wishful thinking.

Offline mmccarn

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2022, 01:31:37 PM »
My 2009 Dell Optiplex 980 (Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 860  @ 2.80GHz) supports x86-64-v2.

After changing the CPU setting in my proxmox guests from "kvm64" to "host" or "max" the guests also report x86-64-v2 (and seem to run faster...)

I'm downloading Rocky9 to see if it works as a guest on this system.

[edit] The Rocky9 DVD installed flawlessly as a guest under proxmox 7.2 on my 2009 Optiplex 980 using CPU "max"
« Last Edit: September 24, 2022, 03:09:12 PM by mmccarn »

Offline Mike R

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2022, 03:15:44 PM »
Thanks for the hint.
I will try this as soon as I can make time...

Offline Jean-Philippe Pialasse

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2022, 09:15:58 PM »
you can find a lot of script around the net currently to test if your hardware server is compatible.

the one I use, and there might be some better, but this one works for me :

cpuCheck2
Code: [Select]
#!/bin/bash
set -e

verbose=
while getopts v OPTLET; do
  case "$OPTLET" in
    v) verbose=1;;
    \?) exit 2;;
  esac
done

flags=$(grep '^flags\b' </proc/cpuinfo | head -n 1)
flags=" ${flags#*:} "

has_flags () {
  for flag; do
    case "$flags" in
      *" $flag "*) :;;
      *)
        if [ -n "$verbose" ]; then
          echo >&2 "Missing $flag for the next level"
        fi
        return 1;;
    esac
  done
}

determine_level () {
  level=0
  has_flags lm cmov cx8 fpu fxsr mmx syscall sse2 || return 0
  level=1
  has_flags cx16 lahf_lm popcnt sse4_1 sse4_2 ssse3 || return 0
  level=2
  has_flags avx avx2 bmi1 bmi2 f16c fma abm movbe xsave || return 0
  level=3
  has_flags avx512f avx512bw avx512cd avx512dq avx512vl || return 0
  level=4
}

determine_level
echo "Level $level"


Offline Mike R

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2022, 03:23:33 AM »
A, thanks, Jean-Philippe.
My Server is Level3, so I am in the clear.

Offline Gary Douglas

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2023, 10:24:41 AM »

Offline ReetP

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2023, 01:05:17 PM »
here's a good read for us old timers;  https://www.lpi.org/blog/2023/07/30/ibm-red-hat-and-free-software-an-old-maddogs-view/

Indeed.

My take away from that is:

If you want to stay open source then use Debian/similar which is community run and will likely always be open source eg Proxmox

Otherwise use RHEL - or RH competitor, pay your money, and stop complaining.

(I am not saying whether this is right or wrong - just my interpretation)
...
1. Read the Manual
2. Read the Wiki
3. Don't ask for support on Unsupported versions of software
4. I have a job, wife, and kids and do this in my spare time. If you want something fixed, please help.

Bugs are easier than you think: http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help

If you love SME and don't want to lose it, join in: http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation

Offline Gary Douglas

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2023, 07:59:28 AM »
I agree.

Was nice to read the history of my journey through the years.

I was immediately drawn to linux as a lad and wouldn't want to lose it. But it is the freedom I enjoy most of all, and a community of like minded hackers. Is it about the money? No.

Offline ReetP

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2023, 11:25:39 AM »
A question rather than an answer.

How do people feel about the IBM/RHEL travails?

We have been pretty set on using Rocky going forward but does anyone have any thoughts or comments?

...
1. Read the Manual
2. Read the Wiki
3. Don't ask for support on Unsupported versions of software
4. I have a job, wife, and kids and do this in my spare time. If you want something fixed, please help.

Bugs are easier than you think: http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help

If you love SME and don't want to lose it, join in: http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation

Offline Gary Douglas

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2023, 03:52:34 PM »
Most my SME's are vm's on debian hypervisors and my desktop debian too.
Both operating systems are incredibly reliable and quite similar.
SME has always been reliable and its relative simplicity has allowed less knowledgeable people like me to deploy.
SME on debian would be good but thats a major rewrite. SME on rocky might be a risk.
At least IBM redhat outed it now with some time to run on centos7.

Offline Jean-Philippe Pialasse

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2023, 07:38:59 PM »
apart of the rewrite, moving to debian would be :
- a higher load to build ourself needed packages (no epel, no remi, no rpmfusion, no openfusion repo)
- we rely heavily on perl and this is less available in core repos
- we rely on a lts model with stability which has no similar model with deb packages.  this would lead to more work to maintain sme on a daily basis with newer packages popping more regularly. we do not have man power for such load

Offline bunkobugsy

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2023, 08:29:41 PM »
There're always Oracle and Alma that should be almost identical to Rocky with different rebuild strategies, just in case.

But how about CentOS Stream, are package versions, stability and release strategy that different to EL?
Pity Stream 8 EOLs next year a month before Centos7, but for 3 more years of support there's Stream 9.

Ten years of lifetime seems to be getting a rare bird on free (and familiar) enterprise linux grounds.

https://rocky-stats.tiuxo.com/
« Last Edit: August 07, 2023, 10:18:05 PM by bunkobugsy »

Offline bunkobugsy

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2023, 09:03:30 PM »

Offline Gary Douglas

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2023, 06:38:49 AM »
https://openela.org/   is that freepbx's frog?

Offline Gary Douglas

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2023, 09:54:55 AM »
freepbx going debian, testing incrediblepbx on debian, supports rocky centos pi; https://wiki.incrediblepbx.com/Products
« Last Edit: December 23, 2023, 07:51:26 AM by Gary Douglas »

Offline groyk

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2023, 09:24:46 AM »
Merry Christmas everyone.

I am curious about if any decisions are made for the future?

1. Rocky linux seems as the safe way. But will it last?

2. Debian is a big translation, but it seems like more and more open source projects are going this way.

I am not into all the details, the question is mostly, if there is a plan for the next version?

Offline ReetP

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Re: SME 11 : choose upstream
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2023, 10:55:37 AM »
Merry Christmas everyone.

And to you.

Quote
I am curious about if any decisions are made for the future?

1. Rocky linux seems as the safe way. But will it last?

Probably but none of us have a crystal ball! We could move sudeways if required eg Oracle/Alma etc

Quote
2. Debian is a big translation, but it seems like more and more open source projects are going this way.

JP answered this a few posts back. We do not have enough hands to maintain this, nice as it may be..

Quote
I am not into all the details, the question is mostly, if there is a plan for the next version?

Get into the details, and come and help....

Yes there is a plan. If you read elsewhere here you'll see some news.

https://forums.koozali.org/index.php/topic,55078.0.html

We are currently working on backend upgrades.

We'll be tackling upgrading Koozali itself in the New Year.

Don't just sit there and wait for others to do stuff. Please get involved and be a part of it. We need help at all levels. What you don't know we'll teach you so there are no excuses....!
...
1. Read the Manual
2. Read the Wiki
3. Don't ask for support on Unsupported versions of software
4. I have a job, wife, and kids and do this in my spare time. If you want something fixed, please help.

Bugs are easier than you think: http://wiki.contribs.org/Bugzilla_Help

If you love SME and don't want to lose it, join in: http://wiki.contribs.org/Koozali_Foundation