Topic: Its True E-Smith dies with RedHat

[rk]

I know this should probably be on the dev list, but I haven't participated there, and I wanted to throw this out in the public forum first.

What do we need to use Redhat as a base?  Couldn't we remove the OS from the software in this case?  This may sound like sacrelige, but I'm sure the dev community over at Gentoo would embrace the web frontend that e-smith presents.  Why not split e-smith into a few areas (web admin, overall web config/ibays, /etc management), and offer it as packages to install on top of a base system?  One of the biggest complaints in Gentoo is the lack of more packaged server material that doesn't require you to be a propellerhead, and one of the complaints about e-smith is the lack of tools for people who want to be propellerheads.  These two extremes might make a porrage that's just right.

I know I've been trying to set up a Gentoo box to run with stuff like E-Smith, but alot of the config is way over my head, or way too much code pounding.  I'll likely upgrade to version 6, but then begin actively working to convert to Gentoo.

Another bonus is that their emerge tool can be used to keep up to date without having to rely on updating everything yourself, now that up2date is not going to be supported.

Just throwing some chum in the pool....

[Michiel]

> What do we need to use Redhat as a base?  Couldn't we remove
> the OS from the software in this case?  This may sound like

I don't think this is something we need to decide on in the short term. SME 6.0 will be released shortly, which should keep us quite happy for a couple of months. If there is enough interest, we could upgrade to e.g. RedHat 9.0, which could buy us a couple of extra months and is easyer a task than changing distro's. By that time we should know more about how Fedora evolves and have still enough time to decide on a different distro if needed.

However, we should not underestimate the work involved in changing distro's. You can't just throw all the e-smith*.rpm files on Mandrake and expect it to work. I would like to see some very strong arguments in favour of a different distro before breaking with redhat/fedora.

Michiel

PS: Did you notice? This was the first time Mitel gave a release date for SME. Too bad it is also the last time :-/

[Peter Baldwin]

Just to clarify... we haven't made a decision on what platform to use for the ClarkConnect 3.x release.  We have committed to keeping the Red Hat 9 (or Fedora 1.x if it's stable enough) for the current 2.x series... but this is just to keep things similar for the 2.x versions.

I'm lurking to see what the new E-smith/contribs.org plans to do -- ClarkConnect and other Red Hat-based distributions are at a similar crossroads.  There are many options:

- Use the Enterprise Red Hat version (with all the necessary trademark and licensing changes of course).  If Red Hat continues on their current trajectory, then this option may end up being a dead end.  I can understand RH's push to drop the consumer product, but there seems to be a pricing gap in their product line for the SMB market.  That's another can of worms...

- Use another distribution ... but which one?

- Go it alone and maintain a core set of server/gateway packages for ClarkConnect, E-smith/contribs.org, et al.  Maintaining all those the "non-interesting" packages (basesystem, bash, bc, bzip2 to name packages that start with the letter 'b') is not exactly a business we want to get into.  We want to be much more focused on the gateway/server feature set.  Regardless, this is still an option.

The next 12 months will be interesting!

Cheers,
Peter

[Paul]

Well,

REL3 just strikes my fancy because of stability and it's eol is 2008.

I have kinda had the same thought about making it more modular.  Have a base core and then add the modules you want.

I really like the way ClarkConnect does this with apt-get but there web-based interface is a bit hard to navigate and their set-up is not as friendly as is/was SME.  A lot of their apps need too much tweaking for my taste.

Start with a good, reliable base with minimal features (just about the same as SME5.6).
Keep the templates and web-based server manager. (I think they work better than any other method I have tried JMHO)
Mantain a distro based update/upgrade/add-on database system with modules and contribs that utilizes something like apt-get.

I am not a prophead but I can manage to get around this distro.

More chum, the sharks should start feeding now

[Paul]

Peter,

Why would you even consider RH9 as a base when it's eol is 4/2004.

Isn't it going to be difficult to provide an eol on Office 2.0 of 3/2007 (or even Home 2.0 of 1/2005) when it's base's (RH9) eol is 4/2004?

RedHat's decisions must just be killing you guys.  I feel for you.

P.S. Peter wrote: "(or Fedora 1.x if it's stable enough)"

This is the biggest understatement in this entire forum.  Fedora is going to turn into a cutting/bleeding edge, unstable playtoy.  JMHO:)

[Paul]

Another question/thought:

Is the "template system" and the "server-manager" GPL and if not, is Mitel going to allow thier use in any kind of developement situation?

Paul

[Peter Baldwin]

I'll answer any other ClarkConnect related questions offline since it's not appropriate in this forum  Just remove the "j2003" from my e-mail address.  I will still chime in on E-smith/contribs.org issues if I have something to say.

> Why would you even consider RH9 as a base when it's eol is 4/2004.

Just to keep things consistent in our current 2.x release.  We will have at least one more point release before moving to the new core system.  And, we will be maintaining the base Red Hat RPMS via a third party company (probably).

> RedHat's decisions must just be killing you guys. I feel for you.

It's not too hard!  We already maintain a fair number of packages already -- it's just not really something we or contribs.org should spend much time on (if it can be avoided).  There is no need for E-smith or ClarkConnect to re-invent (another) Linux distribution... just my opinion though.  I know that ClarkConnect can run on any Linux distribution with very few changes.  I would hazard a guess that E-smith/contribs.org is in the same boat.

> templates

The template system is quite elegant, but it only fits the user-driven deployment model.  Example 1: when a school district wants to deploy 70 boxes, having a single backend to configure all the machines is a must.  Example 2: a kiosk application deployed at 200 sites requires a custom datacenter-to-gateway application developed -- templates don' work in this case.  We do some of these things for our clients, so a template system is not the right framework.

Cheers,
Peter

[Paulc]

Hi,
     probably a stupid question but Redhat are releasing the source of the enterprise edition. What is wrong with using that?

Cheers Paul

[David Trask]

Long live E-Smith!  I remember my nervousness when E-Smith became a Mitel product....funny...I have a new nervousness when going back to a community developed product.  On the K12OS list we've had the same discussions about Fedora vs. Redhat and we've decided to go with Fedora.  Once thing we need to do is pick "benchmarks" and go with those....not necessarily try to always "keep up".  I love E-Smith and so do many other IT folks in Maine schools.  I plan to pitch in any way I can.  Long live E-Smith!

[@nonymouse]

why not just use http://www.whiteboxlinux.org?

[w.raj]

You have absolutely right!!

[Walter Padgett]

Good Afternoon,

After reading all of the posts in this thread with interest and amusement, I have a thought or two.

I appreciate anyone's effort to bring about a better distribution. There is a lot of "unappreciated" work and effort that goes into maintaining a website much less one of this magnitude. Team members can easily become burn out due to the lack of appreciation and/or monetary income. Pride of accomplishment only goes so far. People that have either complained or criticized the efforts of contribs.org have a few problems as well. When posting, I try to make sure that my English grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc., is correct and professional looking. If the complainers were to take over the site, I'm afraid of what I would see.

On another note, I haven't been keeping up with the industry moves but it looks like folks are hurting for money or are, like I said earlier, tired of working for "the pride of accomplishment." I installed SME v6 this afternoon and was pleasantly surprised by the very professional appearance of the server manager panels. What would stop anyone from just updating the little things that need to be updated and continue to use v6 for a year or more? I remember reading posts on the forum's not too long ago that stated some folks were still using v4.x. I have thoroughly enjoyed E-Smith/SME since v3.x. It took a lot of persuading by a gentleman on the #linuxhelp IRC channel on the Undernet before I took the jump.

With all that out of the way, where is the PayPal account to send money!!!!

Sincerely,

Walter "Wally" Padgett

[JeffC]

Walter Padgett wrote:

>
> With all that out of the way, where is the PayPal account to
> send money!!!!
>

I think you'll find it now on the top right corner of the front page.  Please feel free to use it :>

Cheers,

-jeff
On behalf of contribs.org

[Walter Padgett]

Good Afternoon,

While donating money via PayPal, I noticed that the recipient was unverified. Will this change soon?

Later,

Walter "Wally" Padgett

[JeffC]

Yup.  This afternoon.  We just got our deposits verifed.  Thanks for your donation!

-jeff