Topic: ALternative to sme-server ? (open mind)

[Harald van Buel]

First of all, I love sme-server and hope to enjoy it even more in time.
But my open mind and responsibility's require me to investigate if there is an alternative to SME-SERVER. (due to the recent developments)
Some product that is about the same must be out there, does anyone know one ?
Or is it true, SME-server is alone in its high standards.

[Arne]

According to my opinion there is no alternative to the e-smith, becuse its produckt consept is rather unique.

According to my opinion the e-smith product consist of two parts:

1. One modified, but rather standard Linux distribution.
2. The set of Perl configuration scripts that make this product unique.

I think you can not compare it with for instance the clarc connect, even though this is also å free Linux out of the box. The clarc connect don't even have a database server, as far as I can see, and if I understand its fuctions right its configuratin system is based at php (???)

So if you can compare the e-server with anything it shuld be with the webmin or the linuxconf environment. I tried to hack a little bit into webmin to see how it is bulidt, and I belive this is also bulidt up around the use of Perl scripts. I havent looked into the Linuxconf, so I dont know.

But I think there is fundamental diffrenses between the way the Webmin and the e-smith configuration system work. As I can se the Webmin configuration system is mainly a distributed configuration system with a set of Perl configuration modules with nice looking graphical interphase. But mainly and basicly it is a set of individual configuration modules for each of the diffrent Linux system modules. This I believe makes the Webmin configuration system not so difficult to understand and maintain.

The big diffrenece between the e-smith and the Webmin, I belive is is that the e-smith right from the bottom is based on and buildt up around one sentral and strong overall configuration system that makes all diffrent system modules to play nice together right from the start.

So I belive that to continue tne e-smith or to replace it with something else, the main question will not be: Should I use the Slackware, the Debian or something else as basis for this product. The one and only important question would be to find out how this overall configuration system work and how you can upgrade this or transfer it over to some other distributions.

Like the Webmin configuration tool I think it would not be so difficult to transfer this configuration system over to any Linux or Unix and make any of those, lets say for exsample FreeBSD to make "the new e-smith server".

If you want to use and understand Webmin, I think you can begin in any "end" or module to do something because it's modulrarized and distributed design, based on individiual and rather independent system modules.  

For the e-smith, I belive the situation is approx the oposite. Because it is based on one strong sentral configuration that makes it all play together, you must first of all understand how these modules play together and what makes them play together. (Like that I think the webmin modules basicly do not.) When these function is traced down and you know how they work then you can start to do something with them.

Interesting things will be to se how these sentralized configuration things are "waked up" what triggers their functions and so on. It will be neccesarry to trace the boot prosess, to lok at the cron jobs and the diffrent set of perl configuration scripts, I believe.

I have tried to post a few questions about these problems. I will hope that these problems will be more popular after a while.

http://forums.contribs.org/index.php?topic=19214.msg76002#msg76002

http://forums.contribs.org/index.php?topic=19214.msg76002#msg76002

I hope that we will find out a little bit more about how this great product really work so we can continue to take maximum advances of this unique open source product.

By the way, I'm not a computer professional, it's just my hobby but this doesen't, I think, make theese problems less interesting.

I think you can find Linux servers and Pizza boxes out there that wil run out from the box, but that doesn't mean it's a e-smith.

http://www.clarkconnect.com

[Arne]

I have tested a little bit on the Clarkconnection but not the Pizzabox, but here is the link. Believe none of them are 10 % as smart as tne e-smith.

http://www.kyzo.com/

And the the e-smith's real competitor (if there is any)

http://www.webmin.com/

[aCC]

Hmm.. Clark Connect certainly sounds nice. Although still RedHat based, but at least they have apt.

The missing DB server is interesting, but I guess you can install that quite easily.

Any other distributions out there that are like clarkconnect or e-smith?

[Dub Dublin]

Clarkconnect is very close in many ways, but not as flexible and even odder, from the little bit I've seen (to be fair, that was a while ago, it may have gotten quite a bit better since then.)

There are also a number of similar distros designed for commercial server appliances: Celestix, Gallantry, and a bunch of others that don't come to mind right now.

On the other hand, as much as I like some of e-smith, I'm going to go ahead and say somethign that is true, although it will tick off a lot of people here - please don't be reactionary - I'm trying to raise a legitimate question, not start a flamewar of any kind...

Given that e-smith as we know it is going to require a MAJOR rework because of the Red Hat debacle, and there's a LOT of HARD WORK required to replace that core, perhaps it's best to graft the excellent E-smith templating system and managmenet UI onto a really solid base, and one the WILL NOT go away from underneath us again.  I'm speaking of course of (dare I say it?) OpenBSD.

The reality is that a product like e-smith needs to take security concerns first and foremost, and OpenBSD is by FAR the best platform available today from a security persective.  To be honest, Linux distros like the Red Hat's and their ilk are a joke from a security point of view - like Scott McNealy once said (of NT, I think...), "you can put whipped cream and a cherry on a cow patty, but that doesn't mean you're going to want to eat it..."

This is not intended as a slam against Linux, but a realistic recognition that BSD is in a far superior league from a security and professionalism point of view than all but a few esoteric Linux distros.  To be honest, I've always thought that the e-smith parts were too good for Linux.

I think it might be a very good idea if we would at least consider the course of grafting the e-smith pieces onto OpenBSD - this produce an end result that would be quite valuable to both parties, since the big problem with OpenBSD is really one of ease of use and configuration, and their security focus is ideal for a server product.  This really could be a win-win deal if we do it right.

(And no, I'm not so naive as to think that you can just drop the e-smith bits onto BSD and have them work.  I'm well aware that there is a LOT of that cade that is very closely tied to Linux, and Red Hat in particular.  It just seems to me that if we've got to go through all that stuff again anyway, perhaps we ought to consider doing it the best possible way - even though that's NOT the most expedient way, but IS the one that would produce the best overall long-term result.  (And yes, I'm aware of what that line of thinking did to Mozilla - there's clearly a balance to be achieved here - three of four years to first usable release won't cut it...))

Dub

[Mark]

I've played around with a few others.  One is in Italian and Slackware based so it's not that difficult to understand .

http://o-net.it

The other is very similar but from the UK.  It's called the Elmtree Express Server.

http://www.smeworkplace.co.uk


Let me know if you like these or think they may be a good model.

Mark

[Schotty]

Hello!

I believe that your post is very misleading. There is actually no question about how e-smith is made up or even how e-smith id configurated. The way this has been developed has been documented very well by mitel.

The difference between e-smith and webmin is that e-smith is a server and webmin is a configuration tool.

Webmin has been designed so that lots of functions/configurations can be made using a browser.

Clark Connect has lots of similaritys with e-smith. That no database is supplied is not really a minux point becasue this can be installed and will take around 40 seconds to do so - Not everybody wants or even needs a database running on a mail or data server.
That this can be done so quickly adds rather a plus point in favor of clark connect.

Indeed the question is and will remain for quite a while, I would not even be surprised if e-smith forks, which base operating system will be next.
Of course there are lots of linux servers and none have been developed to be a e-smith replacement.

To replace a server the important question is what do I need from my server. The search should be based on the answers of this question -if you only need a database server then e-smith or even clark connect would be typicaly wrong choices.

Schotty

[Arkman]

Just as another option...I haven't tried it yet and you have to buy the hardware as well, but the price is very reasonable (USD$499 and CAN$649)...the Rumba server has a very similar feature set to SME. You cn check it out here =>

http://www.axentra.com/products/multifunc_server_appliances/rumba_soho_series/

--Noah

[Arne]

Yes it's true that you can install the databaseserver it quite easy. I Installed MySql and PhpMyadmin on clarkconnect and there were no broblems at all. phproject also no problem.

On the other hand I think that the clarkconnect and the e-smith is two very diffrent products. Clarkconnect is designed to be a broadband gateway for a home or a very small business, while the e-smith have contains the typical functions for a little bit bigger environment. The databaseproblem is just a small part of this situation.

There vere also no problem to install webmin on top of the clarkconnect, but then the clarkconnect configuration panel stopped to work properly. Webmin took over control. (unlike the e-smith)

I think the Clarkconnect distribution is a very good product for it's intended use. It has a very nice and well designed configuration panel according to my opinion. If you are only missing the database this can be easy installed together with phpmyadmin. But it does not have the basic structure of being a business server unless your business is very small. It's commersial verion is also priced according to this.

[Arne]

The idea about using the FreeBSD as a basis might not be so bad.

I have tried to look into the source scripts of webmin and e-smith. The e-smith scripts is I think rather difficult to follw and to get the complete view over. It is not so easy to get the complete overview, how things are really running, but I think it can be done.

On the other hand the web min scrips is rather well structured and "easy" to read. There is also som configuration files where you can read out in clear text some of the primary information for the different operating system that is supported by webmin.

http://www.webmin.com/support.html

Actually one of these operating systems is FreeBSD, and if you just compare the webmin installations for FreeBSD and for REdHat, I think you can read out a lot of interesting info.

One major thing in this situation is to find out how the e-smith configuration system really work. When you have an overall overview of what really happen "behind the curtains" at the e-smith, you can basicly, I belive port these solutions, one way or the other, to all Linux or Unix distributions.

If there is anybody of you that would like to look into how such a such a sentralised configuration system could be developed, please leave a info !

[Del]

Hi All,
Try this site http://www.smtnet.co.uk/efinity/index.htm
Apparently based on Debian. But no open source reference so I am not sure.
Regards,
Del

[Dub Dublin]

Just to clarify, I suggested OpenBSD, not FreeBSD.  I think either would be a step up from any Linux distribution, but OpenBSD is designed with security first and foremost in mind, making it ideal as the basis for a server product like e-smith.  In fact, almost al lthe significant advances in security that have percolated down to Linux (proactive detectionof many buffer overflow exploits, etc.) have come from work done first for OpenBSD.  FreeBSD is great, too (considerably more secure and stable than pretty much any Linux distro) but for really serious security, OpenBSD is the way to go.