Topic: RFC : backups with dump

[Kelvin]

Hi E-Smithers,

I'm trying to get different view points on the use of backups with dump.

As have come up time and again, since SME is based on Redhat and everytime something that does not work "out of the box" with SME, the general comment appears to be "if it isn't supported by RH then it isn't supported". I therefore take this to also include if it isn't recommended by RH, you also should not use it.

From RedHat at :-

http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/linux/RHL-8.0-Manual/admin-primer/s1-disaster-backups.html

It would appear that RH does not recommend the use of dump for backups (used by flexbackup in SME).

We have now seen a number of contribs for alternative backup programs / methods, some of which I have used as well. However, I would like to know what others think about SME's continued use of dump inspite of it not being recommended by RH, especially users who are using flexbackup / dump on their production systems and more importantly, those who have critical data on their production systems and using flexbackup / dump for backups. If the comment made by Linus is correct (ie. "(*) Dump may work fine for you a thousand times. But it _will_ fail under the right circumstances. And there is nothing you can do about it."), then you could come across a critical time when you needed the backup to have worked but found that it did not !

Comments ?

Kelvin

[Boris Mann]

My guess is that Mitel will integrate and/or have an option to bundle a different back-up program which includes a client GUI.

It is likely up to the various developers here to put together a different option.

[Kelvin]

Hi Boris,

Thanks for your comments.

Just as taper was removed from SME because it was no longer useful as a backup program as peoples hdds and their data grew larger, I am equally concerned about the continued use of an unrecommended backup system. Without a reliable backup system, you are literally "playing russian roulette (quote from Linus)" with yours and possibly other people's data.

Kelvin

[Boris Mann]

> Without a reliable backup
> system, you are literally "playing russian roulette (quote
> from Linus)" with yours and possibly other people's data.

Hmmm...I'm hoping that you mean the general use of "you". I was agreeing...from personal experience, the various backup options using dump seem shaky at best -- my point was that it is unlikely that something else will get integrated unless it is done outside of Mitel.

Of course, there are third-party options like Arkeia.

[Kelvin]

Hi Boris,

>I'm hoping that you mean the general use of "you"

Rest assured, I was.

>my point was that it is unlikely that something else will get integrated unless
>it is done outside of Mitel

And I believe that this shouldn't be the case. Whenever somebody put together something and advertises it as being capable of doing this and that, you should be able to have a fair expectation that it will do just that (not just some of the time but all of the time -- barring equipment failure, viruses, etc). If Mitel chose to use flexbackup with dump as a means of backup, we as consumers should also be able to expect that the combination should work (not some of the time but all the time). In fact, we should just assume that just setting the options in server-manager should work - and not worry about what goes on behind the scenes.

After all, flexbackup is not tied to dump. Flexbackup can also use tar, etc in place of dump. I would have thought that it would be fairly simple for Mitel to put out an Update (aka Service Pack) to switch to using tar or some other supported engine to drive flexbackup.

> Of course, there are third-party options like Arkeia.

Yes and my gratitude to Shad Lords for his work on this . However, my opinion that this is a problem that Mitel should address themselves still stands.

PS. By the way, dump has undergone further redevelopment. Whether the current version (not necessarily the one in SME) addresses the problems and concerns raised by Linus or not, I don't know. But since we get hit with comments like "if it isn't supported by RH, then it isn't supported", it would be double standards if it is ok to use something like dump when it is not recommended by RH.


Kelvin

[Charlie Brady]

Kelvin wrote:

> It would appear that RH does not recommend the use of dump
> for backups (used by flexbackup in SME).

If you'd rather use tar than dump, it's not hard to change:

cd /etc/e-smith/templates-custom
mkdir -p etc/flexbackup.conf
echo '$type = "tar";' > 10type
/sbin/e-smith/expand-template /etc/flexbackup.conf

Regards

Charlie

[Guck Puppy]

or afio?

[Kelvin]

Charlie,

>If you'd rather use tar than dump, it's not hard to change:
>
>cd /etc/e-smith/templates-custom
>mkdir -p etc/flexbackup.conf
>echo '$type = "tar";' > 10type
>/sbin/e-smith/expand-template /etc/flexbackup.conf

Are these cahnges all that is necessary for restores to work as well or is there something else to change in order for restores to work ?

Kelvin

[Kelvin]

As listed in the SME 6.0 beta announcement, this issue have now been addressed. Thanks for all view points.

Enough said !

Cheers !

Kelvin

[Dan Williams]

So what is the consensus then?
Use DUMP, or use TAR?
What are you doing Kelvin, and have you tested it?
Dan

[Guck Puppy]

So no mention of afio or cpio?

I found a reference to someone trying to bring in afio :
http://forums.contribs.org/index.php?topic=5032.msg17666#msg17666
they reported some success.

I am using flexbackup with afio on a redhat 7.1 server with a TR5 tape drive and can also report some success.

G

[Kelvin]

Hi Dan,

Generally, if at all possible, I don't use flexbackup at all. I have trouble getting even experienced users (well, ok, experienced with windows ) to restore files with flexbackup, even with the help of Darrell's Advanced Backup and Restore add-on. It's also very slow and an unintelligent backup program. I only use it if I don't have a quick or simple alternative for a given circumstance.  I'm trying to switch users to Shad Lord's arkeia contrib. However, some of the sites that currently run it have had inconsistent experiences - some no problems, others have intermitten backup failures and one that I'm still struggling with is really strange (you can read all the gory details at Shad's phorum).

If I have to use flexbackup, then I will change to using tar, as recommended by redhat. Unfortunately, I've had little experience using afio or the others and so do not know how much better or worse they may be. The general response I've received is that most people didn't know about the issue. Like me, they relied on what was provided by Mitel and assumed that it will work. Now that they are aware of the problem, some have adopted the "It has been working for me ! Why change ?" stand while others, like me have decided to change to tar. As I mentioned in a previous post, the data at stake may not only be yours. It only takes 1 disaster at the wrong time to totally wreck any confidence anyone may have in your product, service or ability. Why take that chance ?

Cheers,

Kelvin