Topic: SME Server ( Clone ? )

[dmac]

I am no expert in legal matters, but do have some observations to offer.

First - looking at your Kuadra ES Server features, it looks identical to the SME Server that has been produced by Mitel and Contribs.org.  The main difference between what has been branded Kuadra and others that use the SME Server appears to be that most users have not changed the Copyright information on the Server Manager home page, as you have done.

Second - You appear to have utilized contributions by the open source comunity, including the ClamAV panel and the Squid Panel.  It would follow that if you have made changes to the Core product, that you would make it available to the Open Source comunity.  Have you done this?  Have you informed the original developer of these products you are using of any changes that may benefit the product or the comunity?  I can not speak for the majority of the users here, but when I deploy a SME Server, I don't take any credit for the system, The credit is flowed back to the original developers of the product or the contributions.  In fact any SME Server I have deployed, there has been no charge for the software, only the hardware.  If the end user expresses an interest in paying for the software, they are pointed to this site and encourouge to donate.  Can you say the same?  You are charging for a product, that you have rightfully modified, but are not giving back to the developers that created the basis of your product.

But, what if Mitel decide tommorow to sue all the SME users for patent violations or decide to charge a fee for its use? Remember SCO.

Following this logic, what if Red Hat decided to go after every other distrobution that was spawned for their efforts?  This would include all the Fedora code as well.  These companies have realized that there is value in allowing modifications to their products by others.  These companies even benefit, including Mitel.  I seriously doubt that Mitel would take this approach.  Also, comparing Mitel to SCO is a bit of a reach don't you think?

From my perspective, all the Contribs users and owners are asking is for changed that you have made be flowed back into the community that initially spawned your product.

my 2 cents, for what it is worth,

Darin MacLachlan

[kiruxadmin]

Kirux Kuadra ES Community Edition. Please follow the link.

http://www.kirux.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=102

[haj]

Keep in mind that the Kuadra ES is a complete distribution. The Kuadra ES was not designed to be an add on. You can not take portions and installed into existing SME installations. The Kuadra ES is not compatible with any version of the SME, present or future. They do not share most of the mayor components and their directory structure are different. May be the Kuadra ES community edition is the answer. I do not know. Thank you for your comments.

Well there have been some improvement sure...

What is the work done on Kuadra ES based on?
Let me guess: SME?
And you have deleted all developers credit! Even for contribs you have used (ex: proxy pannel)!
What a shame!

Anychange you do on any program, you must display credit for the original author. If you have done too many modifications on the program, ask the author if he is OK for you to remove its name.
 
PS ask befor removing original copyright

It is not GPL it is just logic.  

[haj]

Totally different product.

Totally? It is a joke isn't it?

The same is with the Kuadra ES. All the credits and copyrights notices are intact.

According to screenshot of some server-manager pannel you have stollen, credits do not appear!

Keep in mind that the Kuadra ES is a complete distribution. The Kuadra ES was not designed to be an add on. You can not take portions and installed into existing SME installations. The Kuadra ES is not compatible with any version of the SME, present or future. They do not share most of the mayor components and their directory structure are different. May be the Kuadra ES community edition is the answer. I do not know. Thank you for your comments.

"The Kuadra ES Community Edition offers the same functionality of the Kuadra ES supported version, but is restricted to one domain and 25 users."
Pasted from http://www.kirux.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=55&Itemid=103

[u27g8mdm]

The Kuadra SME Server is based on the 6.5 version with custom modifications and updated packages. It uses the templating system.
The Kuadra uses kernel 2.6.10 (with updated kernel requirements), cyrus imap server, postfix mta, samba 3, samba vscan (virus detection on ibays), amavis-new, spamassasin, squid, squid-guard, openvpn, horde 3, mambo cms, etc. Most packages compiled from source.

Moses

The answer to whether the KES is based on SME Server has already been answered by Moses himself. I got this from Page 2 of this thread.

[u27g8mdm]

I want to point that the only copyrights violations are found on the actual SME users and its resellers, because they are using a branded Mitel distribution without any legal document that authorize its user to display Mitel logo, trademark and use the Mitel brand name.

Ok, then Mitel will sue them. Let Mitel deal with these "evil" people.

May be Contribs.org are illegally distributing copyright material. Where is the Mitel permission/authorization  allowing contribs.org to distribute the SME server?  Even that the banner said Developers Release, it contains the Mitel logo and some resellers are misleading  inexperience buyers to believe that they are buying the real Mitel software. Are Mitel upper management aware of the distribution of the SME Server Software with their logo?

These "evil" people will be punished I guess.
Want to help by contributing something ?

Let me elaborate, if you get a copy of Red Hat Enterprise Server and then you sell it or distributed even without monetary gain is an illegal act. You can not sell or distribute copyright material.  But if you download the rpms from Red Hat, change the installer, remove all the Red Hat logos and trademarks what do you get? You get Centos, that is legal. If you have the time and some knowledge you also can create your own, legal distribution.

Hmmm.....so where is your KES source code then ? Centos is available to the public, what about yours ?

This forum is clearly intended to tarnish the image of Kirux Technology Solutions the Kuadra ES and myself.

Yes, this forum is created just to tarnish you. Evil. Very evil group.

May be is a group of people that do not like a real SME alternative beyond their control or may be some resellers trying to get free software that they can resell at a handsome profit.

It is the developers of sme server are more pissed at you than others, so I doubt they are after profit.

And if KES is the real SME alternative, then you will be in control, not others. Anyone using the KES will be bound under GPL too.

Also, this forum is a distraction from the real issues, like the SME 6.5 is buggy and unfinished, that the SME 7 is months away from completion. But even if the release of the 6.5 or 7.0 is done tomorrow,  those releases will only provide the basic system. The users need to include the needed contribs, then the forums will begin to fill again with questions, where the usual response “The SME do not include that feature, check the installed contribs” or “Before you post, check the manual” - Take the time and check the forums todays and you will find that most of the cases are inexperience users looking for answers to the same problems, over and over.

Wow, where did that come from ? No offense, but that's pretty childish.

Furthermore, as clearly stated in the contrib.org FAQ and the Donations page, contribs.org is a private organization and is not a charitable institution. Means that contribs.org is a for profit entity, taking money in form of donations from the public. Do you know how much donation money is coming, do you know where the donation money is going. I believe that the community must know.

You are part of the community now? Did you donate ?

Do you know who are principals in the contribs.org?, do you know who sign the checks and allocate the money?, do you know how the profits are generated?

Nope and I dont really care. Why should u ? And why are you so interested in the profits of contribs ?

They provide the SME Server freely to the public, and if you don't want, you can don't donate at all.

AGAIN: The Kuadra ES is not a clone of the SME Server, it is a different distribution, with different components, with some GPL software  and comply with all the software licenses.

You already stated in an earlier post that the KES is based on SME Server 6.5.

Again, some GPL software ? Nearly all major components are GPL software.

Before someone respond to this posting, perform some research. I know that is going to be some passionated people offended by this posting, the same way that I was offended by other postings in this forum.

An advice to SME users, get legal counsel about using Mitel logos and trademarks without written permission. Yo may be liable of copyright violation.

If you are going to post a reply, do not hide, sign the reply with your real name and include your email.

How about this, if you, Moses, want to clear your name, do not hide the source code, make the source code of the KES available to the public and let them decide whether you are violated any copyrights and see whether KES is a completely different distribution than SME Server.

Thanks for reading.

[kiruxadmin]

Kuadra ES Community Edition - Please follow the link

http://www.kirux.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=102

[cc_skavenger]

.....may take money away from the contribs.org DONATION business.

I don't know if you have noticed, but the donations are not exactly enough to run a business on.  I am sure that the bandwidth alone costs more than the $615 shown on the left side.  I know, I provide alternative download areas for alot of the software on this site, as well as others on the net.  A dedicated 10mb circuit is not cheap.  I do it because I want to.  It is my way of giving back, besides the donations I have made.  

Now, My Rant:
You have come into this community and, like a true salesman, started pitching "your" software package.  It would be one thing if you tried to help others in this community or if you provided creative ideas or alternative ways to change things for the better of this community, but you have not.  Alot of these people have worked really hard since Mitel handed over the source-code and the entire message board contents to contribs.org.  It just really rubs them the wrong way that someone who's ONLY SELFISH goal is to make money off of their hard work. It is not a completely new product, but you then have the audacity to pitch it to the users of this community without even trying to give back to the same community that started "your" software off.  That is just ignorance and arrogance that no-one here wants or has to put up with.  

Yes, there are resellers here.  Show me a linux community that doesn't have resellers on their messege boards; but, these resellers have respect enough NOT pitch their own products.  If you take a look, the links to the reseller's sites are provided by happy customers or users that know a specific "contrib" is available for purchase on the seller's site.

You complain about this community, but yet you stay to keep generating "publicity" as the victim in this situation that you keep perpitrating.  Oh, yeah, poor you, all you want to do is sell your product.  Well, why don't you start your own community and take your "followers" with you.  Personally, I haven't seen anyone of these so called "followers" chime in.

In short, if you would like to help, fine.  If you want to continue to whine and moan, take it somewhere else.

[kiruxadmin]

...

[stiperstones]

Taken from the community edition release.

The Kuadra ES Community Edition can be freely shared, but selling or altering this version for commercial purposes is prohibited.  If you agreed with the conditions, you must proceed to download.

[RedBeard]

Moses the only one trying to distract anyone is YOU.  Classic example of misdirection on your part, I can’t defend my position so let talk about something else.  

I wonder, are they trying to distract the community from the real issues or just resellers trying to get some free software?

Like the "free" software that you have based your “business” on?  You have taken the hard work of others and used it, but have failed to comply with their wishes, i.e., their chosen terms of licensing.  The GPL license for one requires that the source code be released to any third party, without any restrictions other than those of the specific license.  You however, want to place restrictions on, at least portions of the software.

“The Kuadra ES Community Edition can be freely shared, but selling or altering this version for commercial purposes is prohibited.

 
Oh, where can it be downloaded from?  Still not available, oh my!

You clearly should have looked into software that is licensed differently for your "business".  The work of Shad Lords and all of the others that have contributed before is being greatly disrespected by you, a man apparently with no honor.

I wonder, if these well intended people, that are "defending the community from evil doers" prefer to keep the power, the control and money in contribs.org. Appears that the "defenders of the community" do not like anything thing that could be an alternative to the existing SME server and may take money away from the contribs.org DONATION business.

It is clear that the community has a voice, but a vote?

Lets see, how many from the community have defended you here???  Haven’t seen a one.  They can voice their opinions here.  As for a vote, start contributing and the people will decide if it is useful.  Speak up that’s another way to vote.  If enough of the developers and users agree that’s the direction the project will eventually go or it will die due to lack of interest.  Change is slow especially in a community like this, but it is possible.

I don’t have any financial interest in contribs, and you still piss me off.  I am pretty sure that no one involved with the contribs community is making money, even if you were inconsiderate enough to believe their time has no value.

I for one would never want to enter into a business relationship with someone like you.  That would be like buying software from SCO.  8^))  

Thanks to all of the hardworking SME developers! Here's to ya!

[u27g8mdm]

Anyone knows what Moses wrote before he edited them off ?

[gregswallow]

Moses, I don't think you have helped your situation by erasing your posts.  You've left everyone that reads this with the suspicion you know you have done something illegal and are attemting to cover your tracks.

It is still possible for you to fix this I think:
- Give the deserved credit to SME Server by putting back the copyright notices as you found them in SME 6.5, and on all the GPL contribs in your software.
-Give credit to SME Server on your website instead of passing off the entire product as your work.
- Share your modifications to the existing functionality of the base system freely with the SME developers.
-Keep and sell your addons as proprietary, but I would suggest to keep them compatible with SME - you can then sell them to all SME users (6000+ users)
-And you can still sell systems as you are, pre-configured with all your addons included just as you are now.  I think mostly you will end up doing most of your business in the area you live anyways.  

I think if you did all this you would not only regain the respect of the SMEServer developers and community, it would be a more profitable situation for you as well.

[RedBeard]

I think that he may have erased his post because a google search for Kuadra ES, “his” product puts this forum post as the # 3 result.  That’s not good for “his” Kuadra ES business.

The sad part of this is that Moses, of Kuadra ES fame, would most likely not be harmed by complying with the license requirements.  Most, not all, people that would be interested in purchasing “his” Kuadra ES product would not be anyone from the contribs community.  When I was looking for a server solution, I did look at his site and quickly recognized Kuadra ES for what it was and therefore was not interested.  He does list the software that he used for the most part with the exception of the contribs contributions.  So if you are familiar with Linux you probably wouldn’t be interested in Kuadra ES.

His should focus on selling services for Kuadra ES.  People that would be interested in his product, Kuadra ES, wouldn’t care about getting the source code.  They are looking for an end solution, not in tinkering with a Linux distribution.  I think he would be more successful with a model of selling his services on an annual basis, and lowering the entry fee to gain customers.  I don’t know for sure this is just off the top of my head so you don’t have to spend too much time telling me I am wrong about how Kuadra ES could make money.  8^)

I understand he spent time tweaking SME to get to Kuadra ES, but clearly he would have had to spend an enormous amount of time, developing Kuadra ES, if he didn’t have all the hard work of the previous developers to start from.

Thanks to all of the hardworking SME developers!

Oh and its Kuadra ES we are talking about here right.  8^)  Think I got Kuadra ES into my post enough?   8^)

[u27g8mdm]

Hmm....looks like our dear Moses have decided not to release the KES Community Edition anymore.

He removed it from his website.
http://www.kirux.net/