Topic: Server TEAM: Is it possible to create a SME8 forum category?

[Tillebeck]

Hi server team (and all others)

If it is fine with you guys I would really like a category for the SME8. I know issues with SME8 should go into the bugtracker but it is nice to be able to get feedback on issues and general tips and tricks before posting something in the bugtracker. I also guess you can make more people try the SME8 on a test server if we are not all alone with the installation but can share thoughts, issues etc. with fellow users in here in the forum.

Maybe one now just for sme8 beta
When RC gets here then lock beta and start an RC
When final then lock RC and start Final (and maybe remove the beta = remove noise)

BR. Anders

[calisun]

This has been discussed before, and I don't know why developers are so against it. As I stated before, when I did beta testing for SME 6 and SME6.5  there was a forum setup specifically for beta testers, and it worked out great.

And developers are always asking people to beta test software and they complain that there is not enough beta testers for SME8, like Tillebeck said,  I can guarantee you that you guys would have much better beta tester turnout if there was forum setup for SME8.
People like to talk, ask questions and interact; not just report bugs.

[cactus]

This has been discussed before, and I don't know why developers are so against it. As I stated before, when I did beta testing for SME 6 and SME6.5  there was a forum setup specifically for beta testers, and it worked out great.

Simple, SME Server 8 is still beta and should only be used for testing. Problems and issues should only be reported in the bugtracker. By creating other channels information that is needed by the developers will be scattered and end up in the wrong channel. For now if you decide to use SME Server 8 (which means testing) report all problems, questions and things that are unclear to the bugtracker.

Too much information is already posted in the forums, for general releases at the moment that should be in the bugtracker, I think we do not need another release there.

[stephen noble]

I agree with having a forum, but if not, my 2c
post to General discussion and add [SME 8] in the header

provided that it is taken to the bugtracker when it's found to be a bug, and talk on the thread stops

[calisun]

Like I said, there was a forum setup for SME 6.1 and SME 6.5 during beta test. It worked out great because not everything is a bug, many times I just wanted to ask a question about functionality of SME6.X beta which was different from 5.X
Like how to change password strength, or how to do something else.
And when people would say, "that is a bug and you should file a bug report" that is what I did.
There is no filing of bugs in the forums, just discussions where people can assist each other. This is totally different from filing a bug and it does not stop people from filing  bug.  And forums encourage people to get involved with beta testing, which is very poor for SME8 compared to what it was for 6.X

And do you guys really want people to clog up bugzilla with questions and things that are not bugs? Going through all this mess in bugzilla takes developers away from working on bugs.
But if there is a forum, people will be pointed in the right direction by other users: "You can find the answer here" or "this is a bug, file a bug report"

[cactus]

Like I said, there was a forum setup for SME 6.1 and SME 6.5 during beta test. It worked out great because not everything is a bug, many times I just wanted to ask a question about functionality of SME6.X beta which was different from 5.X
Like how to change password strength, or how to do something else.
And when people would say, "that is a bug and you should file a bug report" that is what I did.

And current forums, for SME 7.x, prove that users can not stick to that discipline and will post almost only to the forums and need (sometimes even serious) convincing to report in the bugtracker.
AFAIK the SME 8 port is mainly an upgrade to CentOS 5.x and not to many functional changes are implemented as at the moment most of them are in SME Server 7.4 as well.

[judgej]

calisun, you'll be banging your head against a brick wall trying to convince the developers of the community's needs. I have been stating my oppinion for years that the forums should be the first place for users to come for any kind of help without being forced onto the bug tracker. But that is not the way it works here, and it is a damn shame. Personally, I don't hang around the forums any more helping other people, simply because I no longer feel I can ask for help here myself.

-- Jason

[calisun]

judgej, you are right.
This attitude exactly proves what has been discussed on other thread about snobbish attitude of Linux experts.
http://forums.contribs.org/index.php/topic,42896.0.html

Many other people have suggested to have forums for SME8, but this idea has been struck down over and over by few people who believe that they know what is best for everyone and they believe they know how people will react.

If you have forum Titled: SME8 (BETA)   totally green newbies will not even dare to venture there, and people who dare to go there are technically savvy enough to know how to file  bug.

[cactus]

Many other people have suggested to have forums for SME8, but this idea has been struck down over and over by few people who believe that they know what is best for everyone and they believe they know how people will react.

Did it perhaps ever come to your mind that these are the people working to improve SME Server and they require users to adapt to a small set of tools to do so (the best)?

[jester]

With the small base of core developers SME has, i absolutely agree that the forums are not the place for bugs and people should be pressed to report them to the bug-tracker if the do. All this to focus the efforts of the few dev's this community has.

This being said i do think a SME8 forum would be useful. I for once pick up stuff interesting stuff from the forums and tend to test them on some virtual install. This is absolutely mostly triggered by forum posts and wiki pages. And although i'm not knowledgeable enough to develop, while meddling around with it i do find problems/bugs and will report them in the (hopeful) proper way.

Because there is currenlty no 'SME8 BETA (PLEASE REPORT BUGS TO THE BUGTRACKER)' forum I don't get triggered to give SME8 Beta a go at all.

As the dev's focus on the bug-tracker, the general user (just speaking for myself) focuses on the forums and wiki..... thus there is no common ground, no trigger that makes me want to start taking a look. So for me a forum would be useful. This probably also is why most people have no clue whether there is anything going on with SME8. I for once, at the moment, have the idea it is absolutely standing still and wonder if the SME-Server distro is not slowly fading away....

Just my personal thoughts.

Regards,
jester.

[Stefano]

Personally, I don't hang around the forums any more helping other people, simply because I no longer feel I can ask for help here myself.

IMHO this is the REAL shame.. the community spirit is to help each other; if you think in the "do ut des" way (it's latin, google can help you), I think you are totally wrong.

I have about 1600 post on this forums.. maybe 5 are questons, the other are answers.. and in italian language forum, EVERY time I help someone, I redirect him to the right documentation with basics info to use and understand the documentation itself..

so, in the end, if you feel you can help someone, please do it.. when (and if) you'll be in trouble with SME, you'll find someone that help you.

My 2c

Stefano

BTW, I vote for a SME8 forum, with the "BETA" label

[christian]

Jester has echoed my thoughts as well.

I regularly cruise the forums when I'm in town. Often I'm looking to see what others have got into and trying. I end up helping when I come across someone who needs help. I must admit I don't go into the forums deliberately to be free support but while I'm there I will do it as it is my nature to not leave people stranded. All I ask in return is for people being helped to do at least as much work as I have to solve their problem and then to give back to the community when they are able (time, community support, or cash).

So in that context, I also support an 'SME8 BETA (PLEASE REPORT BUGS TO THE BUGTRACKER)' forum. It will in my opinion encourage involvement in SME8 and feed Bugzilla more aggresively. Not knowing their development process perhaps it is something they would prefer to do at RC1 status vs Beta.

However, at the end of it all, it is the developers who have to deal with the noise; so I defer to them on this decision.

Christian

[stephen noble]

lets try the new rules

>the rules will be clear
>discuss, until you find a bug, then move it to the bugtracker

http://bugs.contribs.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4878

[calisun]

Did it perhaps ever come to your mind that these are the people working to improve SME Server and they require users to adapt to a small set of tools to do so (the best)?

Nobody has said not to report bugs to the bug tracker, as you can see by peoples replies,  everybody agrees that all bugs need to be reported to bugzilla and that bugzilla is a very valuable tool for developers.
But I don't understand why is it so hard for developers to understand that beta testers need more than just a way to report bugs, they need community for other, non bug related issues.

[dmay]

I agree with having a forum, but if not, my 2c, post to General discussion and add [SME 8] in the header provided that it is taken to the bugtracker when it's found to be a bug, and talk on the thread stops.

and the thread should end with a link to the opened bug.