Topic: Something must have been wrong with this forum.

[thomasch]

I quote Lisa from her post on other topic:

........In the past few years I have been scared to post an issue, cause I have seen a lot of noobs get slammed for not posting right....

It's the fact that some people feels that this forum is not very friendly. Especially for noobs.

My personal experience with this forum is not very good too.
Someday ago I also think something must have been wrong with this forum because I feel scared to post ask for something I don't understand, because from what I read in the forum posts I always feel that there's a RTFM guy or a bad-ass-I-Know-Everything guy in this forum ready to flame or bite me.

I think we need to change the athmosphere of this forum if we want more people use smeserver.
Like: more friendly, more patience, stop acting like we know everything and stop putting pressure to others, especially to noobs. I know some of us already trying to do that, but maybe we can try harder.

What do you think?

PS: Don't tell me that I should post that as NFR  to see things change

thomas
(always a noob)

[cactus]

My personal experience with this forum is not very good too.

I am sorry to hear so.

I also think something must have been wrong with this forum because I feel scared to post ask for something I don't understand, because from what I read in the forum posts I always feel that there's a RTFM guy or a bad-ass-I-Know-Everything guy in this forum ready to flame or bite me.

I am unable to judge this as I have no reference to this topic, but in general we can say that:

• People refuse to follow instructions given and are still/keep posting bugs in the forums, although they are warned they should report them in the bugtracker ion every post they make
• People refuse to use the search function, a lot of the times, and keep asking questions already answered multiple times.
• People keep posting in the wrong forums, which means moderators need to close topics or move them, while on the main page of the forums it clearly states what forum should be used for which topic.
• People seem to not read the manual and when pointed there feel, treated badly.
• People do not use sane subjects, describing their issue
• People fail to provide the information asked for by the people who reply in the forums
• People change the issue/problem/question halfway through the conversation, where a lot of experienced people dedicated their time and see that it was all a waste.

I think we need to change the athmosphere of this forum if we want more people use smeserver.

To a certain extend I agree, but I think you as well as all other forum users should keep in mind that there are a lot of people with a lot of knowledge on SME Server in these forums, whou want to help you, but as they devote their free time to this, they expect you to do some work as well. This means we would like you to read the manual(s) and the available documentation and search before asking questions.

Like: more friendly, more patience, stop acting like we know everything and stop putting pressure to others, especially to noobs. I know some of us already trying to do that, but maybe we can try harder.

I think a lot of us already do this, but like stated we need the help from the people desiring to be helped as well.

What do you think?

I think a lot of the people offering advice in these forums to their best and are pretty helpful and I think you are over exaggerating the negative site of it.
Also keep in mind that the more experienced posters need to wade through a lot of junk sometimes, which makes them answering shortly and briefly, with only the required information or sometimes only a link to where the information can be found. Rather than interpreting this as not very friendly I think you should see this as helpful and advice as the poster is pointed to the source that should help him/her. If not clear s/he can always ask additional questions.

PS: Don't tell me that I should post that as NFR  to see things change

Please do so, if you need new features or desire changes to SME Server

[jjcuk]

Not the first time this has been a topic

http://forums.contribs.org/index.php/topic,36580.msg162621.html#msg162621

[kevinb]

jjcuk,

Are you flaming cactus?

 

[jjcuk]

Hmmm kevinb dont know how you can read that into my post, not my intention at all . just pointing out that many of the forum members have an awareness of this issue.



regards
Jim

[David Harper]

This isn't exactly the "loosest" forum I've ever been on, but OTOH a lot of what could be called snippiness comes from the fact that people (esp. newbies) don't read the instructions carefully before posting -- i.e. the reminder to post bugs to the bug tracker, search the forums first and so on.

Many years ago, I used to work for a company whose bug tracking efforts were "managed" (if it can be called that) in forums. It was such an awful experience that a couple of us went away and wrote a new bug tracking program, called the Bug Genie. Anyway, one of the killer features that we built into the Bug Genie was that it automagically searched the bug database for possible duplicate issues before the user could actually submit the bug. The user could then look at the existing reports before deciding whether to go ahead and submit their own.

My point is this: some (most??) users, even sysadmins are not necessarily all that bright sometimes (and I include myself in this, I do some dumb things on occasion!). The trick is to come up with logical processes to help manage and address potential stupidity, so that it doesn't always get to the point where the user makes a foolish post here on the forums.

How could this be done? What about some kind of guided support wizard, which steps the user through the process, and then link to it from the wiki main page.

An example process might be:

1. Question: Is a program not working as expected, or do you want to know how to do something?
2. Get title & keywords

(not working)
3. Automatically search bugzilla - ask, is the issue listed here?
4. Help user to post to bugzilla if not found

(do something)
3. Automatically search the wiki - ask, is the answer listed here?
4. If not, automatically search the forums - ask, is the answer listed here?
5. If not, advise the user to post a question in the correct forum. Perhaps help construct the question.

[jjcuk]

snippiness is a good description , polite even ,  to describe some less manerly posts.
Posting on here sometimes feels like you are about to ask the Sergeant major if you can sleep with his daughter .
A technical solution as you suggest I expect may be time consuming to setup.

I noticed in the community spirit post
http://forums.contribs.org/index.php/topic,36580.msg162621.html#msg162621
crazybob mentions the rules and conditions of being a member of the java ranch
it consists of two words "be nice".

I think that sums it up


Jim

[kevinb]

Jim,

I was just having fun with you (hense the " "). I did not read anything negative into your post. I was just trying to have fun.

Sorry for the confusion.

Kevin

[jjcuk]

yeh I did notice after posting kevinb, but others might have read it different and thought I was having a go.
It is the forum , makes me defensive.

[Normando]

<off-topic>

It was such an awful experience that a couple of us went away and wrote a new bug tracking program, called the Bug Genie.

Are you wrote Bug Genie? I love BG. You are the man

</off-topic>

[calisun]

I don't think this is only a problem on this forum, I feel that this is same on all Linux forums. People on forums of other operating systems (Macintosh, Windows) act totally different. I feel like Linux experts have a snobbish attitude to newbies.

See my real life example of this exact thing, see my reply #13
http://forums.contribs.org/index.php/topic,42788.msg202402.html#msg202402

[David Harper]

<ot>
Daniel Andre (zegenie) did ALL of the coding; however, I co-developed the initial design concepts, and did some testing, helped with the internal rollout & so forth, and IIRC I wrote some of the initial marketing materials once it went public as well.

This was a long time ago, and we lost touch when the company in question was sold.
</ot>

[cactus]

I don't think this is only a problem on this forum, I feel that this is same on all Linux forums. People on forums of other operating systems (Macintosh, Windows) act totally different.

Yes I have experience with windows related forums as well and found users there to ask a lot of questions already answered (either in the foums or elsewhere on the net, which could have been easily found). I think questions in a Windows forum are of a different order and magnitude as they IMHO mainly concern minor issues and cosmetics from the user side of view and hardly from the system administrator and technical part of view, which is more the case in these forums.

I feel like Linux experts have a snobbish attitude to newbies.

That is your feeling, I disagree. Perhaps we should offer new users some information on how they should behave in the contribs.org domain and where to put what information on registration although I doubt if they will read that and act upon as many times I read that they find the bugtracker having a steep learning curve without them even trying to register.

[David Harper]

Speaking of which, it would be nice to integrate the bugzilla & smf (forum) logins in the same manner as the wiki & smf. I realise that this is probably a pipe dream though

[cactus]

Speaking of which, it would be nice to integrate the bugzilla & smf (forum) logins in the same manner as the wiki & smf. I realise that this is probably a pipe dream though

Behind the scenes a lot of work is done to come to one account for the whole contribs.org, but (needless to say) this takes time.

[christian]

I think the frustration is often because people post questions without doing any work at all and then expect others to offer them free support. I can't possibly imagine why they would feel my time is less important than theirs. However, I try not to let it get to me. If I see someone do this, I will often just move on and ignore it unless they pose a danger to themselves or others.

Perhaps to alleviate this, we could have a sticky topic at the top level with a "BEFORE YOU POST, please read this". I've seen this in other groups. Personally when I see this in other forums, I read it as it usually defines the etiquette expected.

We're a global community with different cultural norms. I've been lucky enough to have spent a lot of time in many countries around the world and recognize that what is considered normal in one culture may be rude in another. email being generally devoid of emotion can also be misinterpreted. Some cultures speak their mind openly and others feel they need to be sensitive to others and are easily hurt themselves. It is neither right nor wrong it simply is.

So while you may expect others to be more like what you view as normal, it's important to be tolerant and recognize where they are coming from.

To me this again suggests a need for an etiquette topic so that we can at least define what we view as normal in these forums.

[cactus]

I think the frustration is often because people post questions without doing any work at all and then expect others to offer them free support. I can't possibly imagine why they would feel my time is less important than theirs.

I second that.

However, I try not to let it get to me.

I try to... but sometime sfail (miserably)

Perhaps to alleviate this, we could have a sticky topic at the top level with a "BEFORE YOU POST, please read this". I've seen this in other groups. Personally when I see this in other forums, I read it as it usually defines the etiquette expected.

Seems like a good option to me. I think at least the following should be in there:

• Search in the wiki, bugtracker and forums before posting
• Problems with upgrades and installation (at least for not customized machines) should be reported to the bugtracker
• When posting try to choose a sane subject that is short and describes you desire, wish or problem. If you have a problem please report the exact error message and do not paraphrase.
• Give as much information as you can, but try to limit it to only relevant information
• When questions are asked to diagnose your problem, please provide the requested information as this might be needed to give you the instructions to answer your (initial) question.
• And last but certainly not least, have patience and keep in mind that not everyone has the same level of experience. Consider posts as friendly advice even though you might as well be able to interpret it in another less friendly tone.

Other suggestions are welcome.

[sal1504]

As a relatively new user of SME I have posted several questions on this forum. I have been told to post my question in the bugtracker, do a search or read the instructions. As a person looking for an answer I have NOT been insulted by the responses, in fact I have found it very helpful in learning the proper protocol of the forum. To all the people who have to wade through the questions posted and try to answer them I applaud your efforts. For the newbies just starting to use this post, do not take the answers as snippy, do the research and follow the advise offered and you will find that the more you use the forum the way it is intended the quicker and better the response is.

Thank you to all the people participating in making the forum the best possible.

SAL

[christian]

Other suggestions are welcome.

I think an interesting (and oddly related) place we can re-use is that of the CentOS forums where it has the FAQ & READ ME First item:
http://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/index.php?cat=3

Specifically useful for us may be:
Read Me First: http://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14336&forum=48

And possibly:
Where to Find Answers: http://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14337&forum=48

The "Read Me First" would require relatively little mods and the "where to find answers" could be updated to meet our needs.

Shall we start a couple of wiki pages to edit these together and with others to get it right? Perhaps then make some sort of obvious link in the forum once we're happy with it?

[cactus]

Shall we start a couple of wiki pages to edit these together and with others to get it right? Perhaps then make some sort of obvious link in the forum once we're happy with it?

Go for it. I suggest you put it somewhere in a namespace like http://wiki.contribs.org/SME_Server:Community

[cactus]

Thanks for starting of christian, I have done a fair bit of rewriting and I think more can/should be added but this is a start.

[David Harper]

This is good work guys

[jjcuk]

well it was me that started it off yesterday when I had a few mins spare but well done cactus you have certainly made it considerably better

regards
Jim

[christian]

Thanks for starting of christian, I have done a fair bit of rewriting and I think more can/should be added but this is a start.

Cactus/Jim, this is a great start. I'll be chipping in but just wanted to warn you I am traveling  over the Christmas break so my work will be sporadic at best. This is why I seem to pop in and leave.

I'll post comments in the discussion panel from here on in.

[cactus]

Cactus/Jim, this is a great start. I'll be chipping in but just wanted to warn you I am traveling  over the Christmas break so my work will be sporadic at best. This is why I seem to pop in and leave.

I'll post comments in the discussion panel from here on in.

Please post them to the concerning talk pages to keep things easier to find and more closely related. Thanks again!

[christian]

Please post them to the concerning talk pages to keep things easier to find and more closely related. Thanks again!

Yes that is what I meant. just didn't have the wiki open in front of me.

edit: ha ha. When you are in it, it is called the "Talk" page but on the tab it is called "discussion".