Topic: where is SME8

[stephdl]

during february, an exchange on the mailing list, developers reported a possible release of the  sme8 RC for the month of April ......
but we are in april now, and I see nothing coming ....
I am very worried about this community project, because I have a feeling that the project is no longer progressing, see stagnating.
during this exchange, he reported that there were one or two bugs that blocked the release of the new version.
I do not understand why this information was not communicated to the forum .... even Debian communicate on late versions of its stable ... there's no harm, and it shows that the work progresses.

I do not know how to move the project from my side, I talk about SME to the people, I write tutorials or i fix them, I give money every month (although this is not enough:)), short life of a geek ))
on the other side all seems sealed in the dark sidereal, contributors seem to be absent, system developers as well.
I seem to see a wall and hear the core team working behind: "wait patiently for this to happen."

One reason for the success of Ubuntu over Debian (I use) is getting out of releases at fixed dates and stick to it, although sometimes it's very buggy. But people are waiting with much impatience as he tests the testing release , immediately after the stable version .... there is a craze.
I think the SME Project requires a roadmap output versions otherwises the status quo wins.
even some French developer of contribs, with whom I could talk or read by post / mail interposed,  doubt in the SME8 project, talks about other distribution as Ebox (in order to contribute their expertise or to replace the SME)
I think it is time to react, reflect common solutions, to create a forum section for sme8 to show that people use it (i know the core team don't want).... and many more.

Do not forget also that the core, the central part is nothing without the contribs that revolve around ......... and it will take much energy to transform them .... .. we'll have many developers motivated and believing in the project
That I am not here to ignite the powder (I'm French sorry for my English) but I'm anxious to see nothing moving and want to create a shock to see the project move forward.
What do you think we should do to save this distribution .....

http://lists.contribs.org/pipermail/devinfo/2010-February/thread.html

[cactus]

SME Server has a very small team of developers compared to Ubuntu and Debian which you reference, apart from the policy when and what to release. SME Server does not follow the release early, release often philosophy, instead SME Server wants to be a stable and secure platform.

Since the resources are low and the few developers support this in their own time we can and will not adhere to predetermined release dates as that would interfere with the policy of releasing a stable and secure product.

This discussion has been raised often and seem to reappear every few months or so, so please search for more arguments as I am not going to dig them all up here, sorry but my time is limited and precious to me as well.

and want to create a shock to see the project move forward.

I doubt you will be able to shock this community on your own, although if you really want us to move forward you best bet would be to raise enough money to sponsor a (few) developer(s) to (temporarily) quit their day time job to work on SME Server, but I doubt you will be able to bring that amount of money on your own.

and want to create a shock to What do you think we should do to save this distribution .....

Please stop saying things like this. SME Server is not dead and does not need to be saved... although it might not be vibrantly alive and kicking the developers in this project are committed, but as said are limited in time.

[ecureuil]

to see http://forums.contribs.org/index.php/topic,45778.0.html

There are 40 bugs not yet resolved (Unconfirmed + New + Assigned + Re-opened), And 16 resolved and waiting to be verified (Resolved).

CharlieBrady ask for help to verify one of the 16 bugs.

anne

[CharlieBrady]

One reason for the success of Ubuntu over Debian (I use) is getting out of releases at fixed dates and stick to it, ...

If you can find a very rich man to provide a very large sum of money to fund development of this project, then you will probably see similar results.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Shuttleworth

OTOH, if you would like to help, rather than just cheerlead,  then please do so via the bug tracker. Click Bugs, then Matrix, then look under SME 8.X.

[stephdl]

@ Anne: I still write too fast, I read your post after mine.
I'm going to see the side of the bug tracker to see if it really in my abilities ....

@ Cactus: I can not actually pay a developer to work full time .... it's a reality that I live quite well.

@ CharlieBrady: it is not enough to find a rich sponsor, we also need to motivate them to invest in the project, and for that we need to communicate about the project developed or tardiness. I do not think that debian has a rich sponsor, and it has the same system, a stable version released when ready.

in any case, I am certainly not criticizing the great work done by the team. I want to express my opinion.

[stephen noble]

SME 8 beta 5 was the result of the activity in Feb
It fixed 70 bugs and added significant new features.

most contribs work as they are, plus new contribs and howtos are available for sme8 only

If you're capable of reading the bugtracker and are aware of the current limitations you probably should be using sme8 now. If you're waiting for every bug to be fixed and a gold release it could be a long time

[cactus]

If you're capable of reading the bugtracker and are aware of the current limitations you probably should be using sme8 now. If you're waiting for every bug to be fixed and a gold release it could be a long time

There is one risk however, IIRC upgrade paths are not always supported for beta releases, they will be supported once SME Server reaches the RC status.

[John Doe]

Interesting topic.

How much money is required to get to this RC thing you talk about? We want to use SME in our non-profit program and a VER 8 would be a great foundation on which to start off.

Maybe we can organize a fund-raiser here at our local school. Wont be alot be we can come up with something. Will it help at all? How much to solve one bug? Perhaps we can go out to our local business community and ask them to sponsor a BUG since we want to use this to do distance learning for disadvantaged students in our country. End result - we may just get that RC 8 or whatever it is you need to get a VER 8 out.  Sorry dont know much about this, but how do we go about providing funds to squash one of those bugs, provided we can raise something - any idea of costs at all?

Thanks

JD

[beast]

I know the strategy for SME and agree with it. I also know that behind it is dedicated individuals that really burn for the product.

But there have been made some mistakes (in my view) that I like to clarify.

- SME 8 really need to be released soon . The project badly need a new release of PHP and MySQL at least.
- The demand to use BugZilla for every problem is also something that push people away

I know there are reasons for the above but the problem is that the project is loosing support/users from a lot of people because of the above!
For instance the feel that it is not possible to get support anymore because every request always end up with the demand to raise a bug. This way people is directed to a not very user friendly interface that they do not know how to operate (at least this is the case for me).

May also be that SME8 is delayed because it is needed to use bugzilla to do any work with the new release. They simply do not get all the bugs or they drown in the process!

Just my 15 seconds (know I will be flamed now)

Beast

[CharlieBrady]

May also be that SME8 is delayed because it is needed to use bugzilla to do any work with the new release.

No, SME8 is delayed simply because it still has bugs which haven't been fixed (because there are few people fixing bugs) or which have been probably fixed, but haven't been verified (because there are few people verifying fixed bugs).

If you want to release SME8 with bugs, and without a bug tracker to help you to track and fix problems, then go right ahead.

[beast]

If you want to release SME8 with bugs, and without a bug tracker to help you to track and fix problems, then go right ahead.

Yes i got shot down in flames for trying to point some light on some problems as I see them!

CB I do not want to release SME with bugs for sure - i just tried to tell developers/supporters some problems from another point of view!

I use a bug tracker on a regular basis in my company (Mantis) so I know what it is and how it operate. I just say that the filter before "we" have to use the bug tracker is almost non exsisting and this do in fact push some people away!

I understand your point of view I just say that there is another side of the story!

[janet]

beast

....problems as I see them!

I believe you missed Charlies point.
If you see a problem that you don't like, then feel free to commit your time and do something about it.
eg 1. You could easily post bug reports into bugzilla based on forum posts, rather than expecting someone else to monitor the forums for bugs and conduct bug triage via the forums. A better tool was needed long ago and that's why bugzilla is being used now.
eg 2. You can start analysing posters problems/bugs in the forums, posting fixes etc and then generating code from that, all via the forums, it is a democratic community and no one will stop you doing that, if that is how you prefer to do it.

The point is that you can contribute your time and your involvement to do something that you feel is not being done the "right" way now. That's how it is in a community.
If you don't like it then do something about it. Telling others to do something about it is unrealistic as they are already busy doing what they are doing, the way they want to do it.

Charlie is one of the lead developers and without him on board, sme would probably be"dead".
AFAIK he (and others) prefer using bugzilla as their "tool of choice", and as they are the ones donating their time, then they get to use the tools they prefer.

You and others can either cooperate with the process (which I think is an easy enough request), or do your own thing.

The real issue is that your time input is needed, in a practical hands on sense, to do bug testing, to do beta release testing, to assist people in the forums, to write or update wiki articles etc etc etc. Note the hands on part. Asking or expecting others to do what you feel needs to be done is not realistic, get in and do it yourself. If you are not prepared to do anything, then please don't complain about the process.
Bugzilla is no more difficult to use than the forums, and if you have the skill to install and use sme server, then for sure you have the skill to use bugzilla.

[stephen noble]

Is there a belief sme8 is buggy, it's not

sme8 has less than half the bugs of sme7, and after updates none that affect operations

If you want sme8 make a backup, then install it, you won't look back

[beast]

I believe you missed Charlies point.

Mary. No I do get your and Charlies point but I do in fact think you miss mine 

[Stefano]

ok guys.. could we stop talking about points and start working ?

Beast, as Mary said, if you can, get involved, thank you

[christian]

Is there a belief sme8 is buggy, it's not

sme8 has less than half the bugs of sme7, and after updates none that affect operations

If you want sme8 make a backup, then install it, you won't look back

I do expect that sme8 is quite stable but per Cactus in an earlier comment in this thread it is not clear whether upgrades will be supported from this point as this usually starts from RCs. Based on my review of forum and wiki comments as well as bugzilla status I am quite confident that SME8 is in good enough shape to run on my production system. If we have a statement (even a qualified one) that upgrades will be supported then I will move forward and add to the soak time.

[janet]

christian

...it is not clear whether upgrades will be supported from this point as this usually starts from RCs.  If we have a statement (even a qualified one) that upgrades will be supported....

That statement is unlikely to be made as it is not the policy of developers to do so.

Using sme8beta4/5 now entails a small amount of risk, but I do not see that as significant or a compelling reason not to use it now if you have good reason to do so eg hardware and application compatibility, which if so, then you really have no choice other than to use sme8beta4/5.

In a worst case scenario, should there be a problem upgrading to sme8 RC or Final (from the beta), you can backup your data and configuration and restore to a fresh install of sme 8.0 RC or Final, then reinstall any contribs. That's no different to what you would do in a production situation where your server hardware totally failed and had to be replaced.

[christian]

That statement is unlikely to be made as it is not the policy of developers to do so.

While that may be true, given B5 seems so mature it seems like a reasonable question. I think it is just a couple of items that are holding it up from becoming an RC.

Using sme8beta4/5 now entails a small amount of risk, but I do not see that as significant or a compelling reason not to use it now if you have good reason to do so eg hardware and application compatibility, which if so, then you really have no choice other than to use sme8beta4/5.

I've been working around this by putting dependent apps in VM's which has had other positive side effects. But you are quite right, I may be running out of runway where even simple apps need php5 and mysql5 amongst other things. I've been able to work around hw dependencies by inserting drivers but this is all becoming too hacked up. I'm an SME loyalist so I'll probably move forward when it otherwise gets too awkward and take my chances.

In a worst case scenario, should there be a problem upgrading to sme8 RC or Final (from the beta), you can backup your data and configuration and restore to a fresh install of sme 8.0 RC or Final, then reinstall any contribs. That's no different to what you would do in a production situation where your server hardware totally failed and had to be replaced.

I agree with that but certainly a scenario I would like to avoid. It is very time consuming.

[cactus]

While that may be true, given B5 seems so mature it seems like a reasonable question. I think it is just a couple of items that are holding it up from becoming an RC.

Perhaps, one major is verification of bugs marked RESOLVED FIXED and since this thread not even one new user has stepped up to do so... I suggest we stop this debate as plain talking about it does not bring us forward.
Be brave, have a look at the bug matrix and see if you (or any one else) can verify a bug, if not you can either set the need_help_to_verify flag (preferably) or take your loss and move on. When in doubt you can have look at other bugs that where verified in the past.

For the process of verification the template on what steps to perform is already added to the bugs in the state RESOLVED FIXED. Basically it boils down to reproducing the original problem, upgrading to version with the fix and verifying that the problem does not occur anymore.

I say happy verification!

[christian]

I suggest we stop this debate as plain talking about it does not bring us forward.

It wasn't a debate, it was a question but if you mean the thread then I'm with you brother.

Be brave, have a look at the bug matrix and see if you (or any one else) can verify a bug, if not you can either set the need_help_to_verify flag (preferably) or take your loss and move on. When in doubt you can have look at other bugs that where verified in the past....

As I've contributed in the past I can assure you it is not an issue of bravery but simply time at this particular point in my life. However you have motivated me sufficiently that as soon as I can allot the time, I will simply move forward to sme8 and take my chances with regards to the upgrades... and of course help with verification...