Topic: The State of the Distro

[jcoleman]

It seems that we do not learn from history.

As late as January 2004, the contribs team was offering leadership and direction for this distro. Some of you were so vehemently opposed to "any" leadership at that time that we (the contribs team) publicly withdrew from attempting to lead this community. There were dozens of posts complaining that contribs was being "lead" down the wrong path, by the wrong people.

OK. The complainers won. Since January, the contribs team has not made any efforts to direct, lead, or influence the development of the SME Server. Please notice that since then, no one else has offered any consistent time, energy, or direction to leading the development of this distro.

Oh sure, we have had some people who "demand" that contribs does this or that. Or a few others telling people how they would like to see things go. But very few people have actually attempted to make something happen other than posting their opinions in the forums.

Here is what you should expect from contribs.org and what the community itself should be providing.

Contribs.org is hosting a site that was brought up as a hobby site supporting the SME Server and its community. We do NOT own the software. We do NOT provide leadership and direction (at your request). We do NOT develop or maintain the software. We DO provide hardware, software, bandwidth and many, many hours of volunteer effort to keep this site up and running for the benefit of the community.

Do NOT look to us for paid technical support. We do not have the skills or the desire. Do NOT look to us for updates and new versions. These are up to the community to provide. The real way an open source community stays alive and grows is for it's USERS to create a life and a support system for the distro.

This is where WE are failing as a community.

SME Server needs people to maintain the distro, update the rpms for security and functionality purposes, and generally move towards a more engaging and inclusive model. So far, there has been just short of zero new development in the last few months. This complete lack of development is the single best indicator for a project that will soon be dead.

So, what are YOU, the community, going to do about it?

Complain that contribs should do it? Complain that someone else should do it? Go over to ClarkConnect or some other distro site and start complaining that "they" don't have what you want?

Frankly, the contribs team is sick of the complaints. YOU (not someone else), start figuring out how to get the recent e-smith updates into the SME Server. YOU (not someone else), develop a leadership structure and get those leaders to set an agenda for the future. Once that is done, YOU (not someone else), needs to participate with code snippets and development and helping out the newbies that will be the future developers of SME Server.

The problem is not where or how the site is hosted. Moving to Sourceforge or any other location or system will not cure the root ills of this distro. What WILL cure it, is to stop expecting other people to do these things for you.

We do not forget that quite a few of you volunteered to help out for the community. But no one volunteered to lead, and to take the responsibility (and arrows) that leadership entails. And we don't forget those of you who volunteered with your pocketbooks to help out with the costs of running the site. To all of you, we offer our heartfelt thanks.

We at contribs provide a site, forums, polls, links, lists, file storage, a wiki, bug tracking, and recently chat. We even provided the first SME Server distro with all then current updates and a new branding. It is up to the community to provide the life blood of the distro - development and self support.

So, quit expecting other people to do YOUR jobs. Start developing leadership and code or it simply won't matter in the long run. We'll be here to provide the venue. YOU need to provide the rest.

Thank you,

-jeff
On behalf of contribs.org

[wallyrp]

Good Morning,

Let the political campaigns begin and end the inevitable anarchy. I hope that my postings weren't viewed as complaints but rather points of interest in regards to the direction of the community.

NOTE: Any and/or all of my suggestions require participation by all registered community members. IF YOU REGISTERED, STEP UP TO THE PLATE! NOTHING IS FREE IN LIFE! I personally have more time than money.

My hierarchial suggestion for the SME community is this:

NOTE: An election process will need to be setup for this to work. I believe that the first administration should be largely made up of people that have seniority and experience. Term limits should be put in place to avoid stagnation. After the first administration, we should see the way more clearly as to electing new people. Also, I believe that the terms should be staggered so that there is not a complete change of administration but rather a mix to allow for stability. This will, at first, give some of the administration longer terms starting out.

CEO - President - Big Dog - < whatever the term elected by everyone.

5 Member Advisory board:

This board needs to consist of at least one programmer, site host (Jeff or someone from his staff), someone with no programming experience but is an experienced user of SME, and two "at-large" members.

Departments represented by a board member (to be determined.) My suggestion for departments are:

Programmers: Folks that contribute, find/fix bugs, maintain, etc.

Updaters: Folks that gather updates to present to the programmers and/or package the updates from the programmers to ready them for distribution.

Distributors: Folks that do the work of burning CD's and shipping them. They would also need to place them on a download site ready for download.

Moderators/Site Managers: Folks that maintain the forums, website, and any other related issues. This may need to be separate groups but I think it could be kept together with relative ease. This group should also consist of record keepers and Standard Operating Procedures (SOP) updates/maintenance.

Some type of schedule needs to be presented along with job descriptions. If I am going to be involved, that's what I would demand. I want a clear direction from everyone involved so that everyone can be held accountable for their respective responsibilities. This should all be able to be accomplished by volunteers.

Regarding my suggestions, I still believe that a "TechNet" CD of the forum's and a "Contribs" CD would be great revenue generators. I withdraw my suggestion of a paid subscription for a tech support forum.
Regarding updates, I still believe that any expedited service should be paid for, otherwise, it should only be expected on a quarterly schedule. If you need an update for an immediate threat, I would consider that as an expedited service and should be paid for. If you need it bad enough you will either pay for it or go find it yourself. Along this same vein of thought, I strongly believe that any commercial ventures that stem from SME and want to be recognized by the SME community should pay some type of referral fee to contribs.org for any business thrown their way. Along with this though, standards should setup to meet a "SME Certified" status.

Regarding my suggestion of contributors receiving some kind of royalty, I still feel strongly about this. It should be defined so that there is an incentive for innovation but also cost control for "contribs.org." Tied to the royalty there should also be a "SME Certified" status assigned to those that meet a certain criteria.

Now, with that said, I will volunteer my time to contribs.org as a Moderator/Site Maintainer. At this point I'm not ready nor do I have time for any higher position. Everyone else, GET INVOLVED AND PRESENT/IMPLEMENT SOLUTIONS TO PROBLEMS INSTEAD OF JUST TALKING ABOUT THEM!

[guest22]

Thanks for your suggestions and offering wallyrp,

Please contact staff@contribs.org so we/I can hand over the administartor tasks, responsibility, development and knowledge of the current site. A bit of moderating is involved too.

Current runnig taks are:
- Mirroring system
- Backup
- Moderating (only if really needed)
- Security checks
- Site updates and maintenance
- Being around and available for other on a daily basis
- Chat a bit to keep in contact with the 2000+ subscribers
- Think of new enhancement etc. etc.

Much appreciated!

If the community thinks there should be another way of doing the hand-over, please feel free to speak up.

RequestedDeletion

[marianol]

It's a pitty that I don't have the knowlege to be a programmer or developer.

But there are a lot of stuff that I think I can get to get this group going. SME is an outstanding product and I will be very sad if this proyect dies.

But I totally agree that a group NEEDS it's leadership. And a leader with a good group of people and a great comunity can achive much more that a comunity alone.  

I totally agree with the previous posts And I think that we need to work and organize ourselves to make this proyect live again.

MarianoL


----
  Excuse my english. But is not my mother thonge, but in second thougth... my spanish is not much better  

[jcoleman]

Now, with that said, I will volunteer my time to contribs.org as a Moderator/Site Maintainer.

Wally,

Thanks for your offer to volunteer.  I'm sure we can make use of your efforts.

The first and easiest task required is to have someone go through all of the posts and lists and start adding more howto and file links into the weblink database.  That database is falling seriously behind the times.

You (or anyone else) can do this without help, admin rights, or any direction.  Please go after it...it is a much used feature in our site.  We can certainly come up with some other easy things to do that go wanting for attention.

Here's the deal...

If anyone volunteers here, we will gladly assign you a task that needs to be done and fits within your skills.  It's then up to you to do the work   and we will ALL benefit from the results.

Cheers,

-jeff

[ergozd]

Just wanted to drop a few files to say thank you to contribs people.

SMEServer is a great solution and as it shows in these forums a lot of people make good use of it.

The last few weeks discussion is alike the discussions when Mitel decided to discontinue e-smith server.

As long as we (all of us in the community) continue to help each other the product will be developed and more useful.

I don't do much, I try to login every now and then and try to help with my knowledge - whatever that is worth.  

I saw a few constructive comments and offers. I think it makes a lot of difference to discuss what we can do instead of discussing what's missing. I will continue to login every now and then to see if there are any posts and people need some help. I will also continue to create HowTos (Metadot, WebGUI maybe some others) and make sure that they are available.

Thanks for your time. We all can do better so why don't we...

Best rgds from Sweden
Ergin

[wallyrp]

Good Afternoon,

I suspect that this will be a very busy thread within the coming days/weeks. I highly encourage everyone to get involved.

I'm assuming Jeff, after you last post, that I can proceed as a Moderator/Site Maintainer in the department as described in my previous post. If this is the case, excuse my ignorance here, could you email me privately describing in more detail as to how I can accomplish your expectations.

On another note, I believe a deadline needs to be set for elections and the hierarchy to be put in place. Forgive me for being a little forward here but I STRONGLY propose a deadline of no later than September 1. This would give enough time for candidates to form as well as give some time for "primaries" if needed.

I believe some of the confusion surrounding these issues that I bring up can best be described as, how do I get involved. I kind of always thought to be involved in any official capacity that you would need to be classified as an "administrator" on this site. To avoid this assumption, I believe strongly that we need to put together an application for each position above complete with certain criteria to match the position. Put this application online so that people can apply. I feel strongly that if you registered, you should apply for something and make this your place. BE INVOLVED! I wouldn't be against putting some kind of restrictions on the majority of the forum's in regards to being able post if your registered or not.

There has to be a string to tie registration and involvement together. Some kind of hierarchy. I would step up to the plate as a board member or the "CEO" in a heart beat if I had a little more time to devote to it. I've been involved in Chairmanships before. Example, President of the local gun club where I lived in Oklahoma after only five months of membership, man that was a trip. Went from that to chairmanship of the local Friends of NRA Banquet committee. In the middle of that, ran for a State Senate post as a Republican. Got 25% of the vote with only $600 and a complete newcomer/nobody to politics against a 4-year well-liked incumbent. Was planning on running again but moved before that happened. Back to the real world again, I get off on too many tangents sometimes.

I'm for forging ahead and setting the deadline on September 1. In fact, I set the deadline as September first. Ballots/voting procedures will be ready by the end of July. Am I out of line here?

[Anonymous]

Hi all,

Some of you may know me, but the big majority not. It gives me the advantage to be less involved in some discussions that are -to my opinion- to be compared with children’s fighting’s.

I was not involved at the very beginning of the ‘contribs’ site, but was convinced that something has to be done for the French speaking community, since joined efforts are always more efficient. As a result I came in the process, and contacted the staff with some propositions… .

At that time, I was really convinced that something very positive could be done, giving to the communities ( International/French ) the needed ‘logistic‘ support to concentrate development, support, help, contributions efforts.

If I try to summarize my feeling right now, I am certainly less convinced than I was, not only due to the current situation, but also due to the SME philosophy :
SME is something easy to use, and do not requires a lot of skills to be implemented. As a result, even if the ‘help’ forums, and ‘features’ contributions are growing in the right way, there are not so much peoples that have the needed skills to be involved in some ‘core’ development. ( also true for me ! ).

In the range of peoples that may have the skills, who is still ready to SHARE knowledge, in a TEAM MINDED spirit, accepting to invest TIME for a non-profit organisation that has a lot of peoples that feels to have the right to just ‘ask’ and ‘complaint’ ?
The time were the ‘core system’ was developed by peoples that were paid to do it is gone, this seems not really clear to everybody.

As a result, trying to learn from the past and from current situation, I only have one question to the community : WHO ( names ! ) wants to MAKE something for the SME ‘core’, knowing that it requires TIME and personal INVESTMENT, and also feels enough TEAM MINDED to SHARE knowledge ?

If nobody wants to keep the challenge, I really thing we better stop, but I will always follow the TEAM decision.


-Herve

[Anonymous]

I'm assuming Jeff, after you last post, that I can proceed as a Moderator/Site Maintainer in the department as described in my previous post. If this is the case, excuse my ignorance here, could you email me privately describing in more detail as to how I can accomplish your expectations.

Wally,

Let's keep these conversations public.

I am hopeful that you will go through the last 4-5 months of posts in both the forums and dev-info archives and track down the new contribs and howtos.  From there, simply verify that the links are good, and as a registered user, you have complete access to entering those new links in the WebLinks module.  It should be relatively simple to do searches for: announce, howto, rpm, etc.

As far as expectations go, the only thing we're looking for is help and some reasonable amount of accuracy in the links.  The more of this that you care to do the more valuable the weblinks database becomes.

As to your other organizational issues....why would you ask me? :>

You have posted in the forums.  If you can generate interest then your ideas will work.  If you can't, then that is a vote in and of itself.

I am not tying to be negative.  It is simply that in order to develop momentum you must have a certain critical mass on your ideas.  Calling for elections is just fine.  But do you think all of the issues have been discussed yet?  This thread has only had 73 views at this point.

Based upon this thread so far, there is no traction for your ideas.  Perhaps that will come with a little more exposure.  I hope so.

A good timeframe for looking at responses is about a month.  That will decide whether or not the community wants to act on your suggestions.  If reads and responses keep going, it has a chance.

Glad to have you participate.

-jeff

[wallyrp]

Good Afternoon,

Yep, this thread has had only 70+ views. There are a number of other threads dealing with the very same issues discussed in this one.

Regarding keeping the discussion public, ok.

Do you have any type of deadline that would reflect any of your statements regarding everyone stepping up to the plate including, but not limited to, if and/or when you would sell the site?

Regarding traction, the official poll about the pricing of updates only garnered 300+ participants. That's hardly a quorum of 2,000+ registered users. How is any one idea or group of ideas going to gain any traction with that amount of participation? This all goes back to the root of this discussion thread.

Regarding the verification of links, is there any aging criteria to be applied? Example, to make it convenient and/or easier to accomplish, setup a warning label of some sort that states that we cannot verify any links that are "x" number of days/weeks/months old?

Outside of this, I'll start running through the Weblinks checking the links. I will also "shaddup" until more traction is gained.

[Muzo]

Hi,

So, i think i must be more involved in the community.

First, I'll tried send a mail from may yahoo mail, and i've been rejected (contribs don't like yahoo?)

Second, I continue my contributions, but can't help anymore because I have only one computer for sme (witch is a 5.6 one). When I have more time (or energy) to upgrade to 6.01, then I'll could help you in ftp (proftpd), iptables (masq), and Netatalk (I don't know anything about netatalk, but i have a Mac).

Any way, to get more involved, I want to help and make easier search in contribs page. I found this page horrible and i'll never found what i want easily. And the best is wiki section, still make 5 mn to find it.

[edit]DOH! i found it in 5 second today...[/edit]

So where must I sign with my blood?

[RavenIV]

g'day to the leadership

i am ready to help the community.
my skills:
- master degree in computer-science
- good programming knowledge in C/C++
- very good experience of networking, NAT, firewall, TCP/IP, etc
- experience with Redhat linux since version 6.0
- User of SME since 09/2003
- admin of a small network (8 users, 5 PCs, two linux-servers)
- good team-player
- much more free time than i need (out-of-work)

my only problems:
- resident in Germany
- not very good english

if my german residence is not a problem for you, please feel free to contact me and give me some work to do.

cheers klaus

[ryan]

I have used SME since 4.1.2 which was my first linux iso install.  Since then I have explored many linux flavors and use SME in several locations.  I have helped others when ever I felt I could in the forums.  I even took basic linux/bash courses to better my ability with E-smith server and Red Hat.  Maybe future 'jobs' or 'tasks' can be offered in a forum.  Registered and qualified users/supporters can then accept jobs.    

How was the orginal E-smith site/distro held together?  It appeared to have leaders and a direction.  Are these people still involved in the current SME server?  E-smith 4.1.2 became very popular and got noticed.  How did they accomplish this?  SME is too great of a project to let the momentum die.

If the SME project dies, I will be giving Microsoft ISA server about 10 server licenses.  I desperately do not want to do this!  I lack programming skills, but am willing to monitor this discussion and offer non-programming assistance if needed.

As a network administrator, I am willing to pay or subscribe to help keep the distro moving...just consider per user pricing rather than per server.  I can write off these costs, but not if the 'ownership' should reside with the owner of the server hardware.  

Hoping for the best,

ryan

[NickR]

I have a suspicion that the SME distro is suffering somewhat because it is actually a victim of being "good enough" for the vast majority of people using it.  The number of people who are sufficiently motivated to "scratch their itch" appears to be woefully low, but it could also be interpreted as satisfaction with what is currently provided.  Over time this satisfaction level will drop and *then* we might get some new blood and some momentum again.

By way of illustration, I'm still supporting sites that run Netware 4.11, which has had no patches issued since late 2000.  These sites still trust their entire datastore to this old version BECAUSE IT WORKS.  They see absolutely no need to change a working solution & I suspect the same could be said of SME.  Stability & reliability are precious commodities and the SME has both in spades, particularly in version 6.

All of the above doesn't help with a "way forward", but I do think it goes a long way to explain why things are as they are.

[Muzo]

gla made a french translation of the news :
Et maintenant... Que vais-je faire ? (And now ... what did I do?)

Great thanks to him!

[Souley]

Hi,
According to me we have to made big changes.
I think we must have a council with few members elected by users.
This council will decide the orientation of the SME project

What do you think about that ?

Regards
Souley

[Peter]

When e-smith was “e-Smith” it was never FREE you could down load free working system that had NO support and indeed was not supported in the main by the e-smith team.

Free! Nothing is Free! Those who want to use it for free should be willing to use the Beta version with a small subscription for any updates.

The free version in many ways was its beta testing ground and the reward for providing a free version was the feed back from many developers around the world.

It was developed by a core team who DID receive a salary which I assume came from the people and there was plenty customers that just wanted to pay for support and do not want the hassle of all the add ons, howto’s etc.

We are still out here and still willing to pay for what after all is a great program for what it was designed for the small to medium user with no IT support. If we can get back to this tried and tested formula all will be well.


People who think developers, programmes and support staff are just going to magically sort out everybody’s problems your living in Lar Lar Land as is expecting development on the next version. Development needs direction support and financial reward after all e-smith is a sophisticated piece of software and is as good as it is because it had motivated PAID development staff with a team leader to give it direction.

Nothing will work without leadership direction and FINANCIAL reward.!

[Peter]

When e-smith was “e-Smith” it was never FREE you could down load free working system that had NO support and indeed was not supported in the main by the e-smith team.

Free! Nothing is Free! Those who want to use it for free should be willing to use the Beta version with a small subscription for any updates.

The free version in many ways was its beta testing ground and the reward for providing a free version was the feed back from many developers around the world.

It was developed by a core team who DID receive a salary which I assume came from the people and there was plenty customers that just wanted to pay for support and do not want the hassle of all the add ons, howto’s etc.

We are still out here and still willing to pay for what after all is a great program for what it was designed for the small to medium user with no IT support. If we can get back to this tried and tested formula all will be well.


People who think developers, programmes and support staff are just going to magically sort out everybody’s problems your living in Lar Lar Land as is expecting development on the next version. Development needs direction support and financial reward after all e-smith is a sophisticated piece of software and is as good as it is because it had motivated PAID development staff with a team leader to give it direction.

Nothing will work without leadership direction and FINANCIAL reward.!

[del]

Hi Peter,
What do you term as updates? I have used e-smith/sme on my home network since getting 4.1.12 off a UK Linux magazine CD (it didn't actually work but the problem was solved by the e-smith forum)and I can't remember having to pay for any security updates/patches - either as e-smith or Mitel, even MS updates for security are available without charge. So what updates are you suggesting we pay for? Addons? Maybe, but that is up to the individual who writes them, Steve Noble at dungog.net charges for his excellent addons where as Darrell May's equally excellent addons are available as free downloads. My point is that just one insecure/hacked server, whether it be a free download or a paid for version is bad news for everyone.
Regards,
Del

[SSBN]

I think the first step should be to find out who wants to lead the project. Then only people who have given money or time to the project can vote. A donation of $5 via paypal gives you the right to vote. Jeff if you are so willing can initiate the process.
Just an idea from someone who has contributed money to the project.

[SSBN]

To expand on my last post.

When contribs first took over e-smith they assembled a team that released 6.0.1. I would suggest reassembling that team and continue to release versions of SME. But charge money for them. The existing distribution 6.01 can go the course the community takes it. Then sell this product to companies like MKC Networks who currently build there VoIP application on SME5.6. Sell it to people like me and any one ells who wants to spend less the 1000 on server software.(windows 200 server cost)
 As a side you can buy 5.6 at http://pub.supercom.ca/web/scomml.nsf/(WebPrint)/20040109085522HUIS-5V2MUM?OpenDocument The MKC/Mitel ICP (Integrated Communications Platform) is SME 5.6 with VoIP Software installed on it.

[Muzo]

Before selling anything, we must have a team, leaders, and a roadmap.

- A team how controls who made what (it's stupid when 2 peoples made same things, it's a waste of time)
- Leaders, to whom MKC may talk and discus about sellings
- Roadmap : what we do? what evolution is important?
- Community : peoples who discuss and act!

[Anonymous]

Hello Everyone,
I would like to offer my help if you are still asking. Please be advised that this will be my first involvement in an open-source project. However  I am not new to SME server. I have been using it for many years now and I don't want to see it die.

My skills are in the IT project management. Unfortunately I am not a programmer, at least not a C++ programmer, and I need to travel extensively for work but I tend to keep myself well connected to the internet.

I don't know if you require a CV from me for something like this and I would gladly post it if required.

Please see below a short bullet point list of what I am experienced and qualified to do.

Certifications
- Citrix Certification
- CCNA
- MCSE

Skills
- I understand routing, networking, NT4 Domains and security, Active Directory,Lotus Notes,  traffic shaping, firewalls,VPN, disaster recovery and thin client architecture.
- I have been using Linux since 1997 for home and for work.
- I am very experienced with, not only SME Server but, many flavours of Linux.
- My router of choice is RedHat. (Only, because I know RedHat too well.)

Languages Spoken
- English (Perfect)
- Spanish (Native Language)
- French (Fluent)

Experience
- 2002 to present Date: Chief Infrastructure designer for my company's European Service Centre. Based in London.
- 1999 to 2002:  Southern European IT Systems Manager. Based in Paris.
   - I was responsible for 9 sites in 5 different countries.
- 1997 to 1998: Network Manager for UK operations. Based in Tamworth, Staffordshire.
   - I was responsible for 3 sites.

I don't want to list anything previous to these years because I don't find it relevant. Suffice to say that I have been working in IT for more than 10 years with Unix, Linux, LanMan, AS-400. I even supported for a while RISC-OS on Acorns.

Thank you very much for your attention,
Andrew

[guest22]

As a side you can buy 5.6 at http://pub.super!!!.XXXXXXX The MKC/Mitel ICP (Integrated Communications Platform) is SME 5.6 with VoIP Software installed on it.

What has this got to do with this current thread and discussion?

[Peter]

Hi Del.

I ask you all to think very carefully about this wonderful software IT IS IN GRAVE DANGER and can not continue as is just meandering from one crisis to the next with no direction. The only way it can survive, develop and prosper is if is run on a commercial footing with paid dedicated staff and PAYING customers whilst maintaining the free unsupported version as a working test bed.


 Free version & Add-on’s. It was the forum that in the main found and offered ways around bugs, developed add-on’s etc. E-smith developers never advocated nor promoted the add-on’s. In fact they constantly warned add-ons may brake your system or be a security risk.  In the mean time the PAID core developers were getting on with error trapping, Bug fixes, Development of the next release with all it’s complications but firstly for the paying customer. It was never developed as a hobby but a commercial enterprise!

It was the very fact that the development team were able to make a living from paying customers which give them the incentive to continue and develop this wonderful server software. We were also able to get a free UNSUPORTED version. We do not now have this core of developers to whom we can turn without them e-smith can not continue!


The time has come for strong leadership. No!  You will not please everybody if fact you probably will alienate some members of this forum however ACTION is now required this wonderful software is in grave danger! Democracy is all very well but even democracy has its leaders. Now is the time for leadership. Geoff  Hsing and others Now is the time to take the lead then tell everybody what you intend to do, not ask them, trying to take votes on this and that, them and us simply will not work. This software must now be put on a proper commercial basis, that means a paid staff of core developers and support staff who will provide the quality service that e-smith gave to its paying customers.  Just like e-smith did company’s that want to offer supported versions to their customers should pay a retainer on a yearly base to enable them to get the same first class help and support direct from the developers.

The reasonable price for the commercial version of this software is $400 this should include unlimited e-mail support, one years updates with security notification and fixes and a one years Anti virus software and updates. Companies that want to have selling rights within a territorial region and become resellers should pay a membership fee $500 then receive a discount of $100

The Free version should be, as it was with e-smith FREE without any support other than what you all ready have on this and other forums which co-incidentally would be made available on the back of the PAYING customers. Nothing is for FREE.

[wellsi]

The first and easiest task required is to have someone go through all of the posts and lists and start adding more howto and file links into the weblink database.  That database is falling seriously behind the times.

Cheers,

-jeff

What would really help is (for the community) to come up with a method for informing the community of a new HowTo or contrib.

For instance

Email DevInfo for feedback during development/alpha release.
Add to Web-Links once appears stable
(The information magically appears in the HowTo classification after a while)
Post to Experienced forum.

Or come up with a different list.

Regarding the state of the WebLinks it is worth considering the that there is also the HowTo classification which now shows what HowTos are untested on 6.0

The next step on that is to move the feedback to the forums. Any help with that will be very welcome by the docteam.

Ian

[simnux]

Peter

I think if you query the e-smith/Mitel folks you'll find that your assertions regarding the e-smith/SME revenue stream are wishful thinking.

When Joe Morrison started e-smith, it was the result of work he'd been doing in his business. That work being the use of templates and a database to configure Red Hat systems. Sometime around 1999/2000 Joe and Kim managed to get venture capital investment, and further down the road negotiated the sale to Mitel.

Yes, e-smith/Mitel staff was paid. However, I can assure you few if any of them were paid from the revenues generated by sales of support for the product. In fact, I'd be surprised to learn that "sales" covered the cost of office supplies, perhaps utilities at best.

Joe et al worked for years to find the magic formula that would generate a consistent, sufficient revenue stream. The fact that Mitel bought e-smith and subsequently withdrew from supporting the SME community should tell you just how unsuccessful that effort turned out to be.

Chasing the dream of creating revenue with SME is at best a high risk, low probability adventure. If this community and the current leadership (or at least the de facto leadership) is focused on money, then I can predict with incredible certainty that SME Server will gasp its last breath and die. Very soon.

Only love of this distro will save it. Nice though it may be, it is stagnant and behind the times and getting less competitive by the hour. Frankly, if I had to pay for it, I wouldn't. There are better options to be had if you are going to have to unload your cash.

Only a developer in love with the project will have the persistence to drive it forward. Only an administrator in love with the project will have the perserverance to glue all the pieces together. Only a leader in love with the project will have the passion to inspire others to follow their lead.

Anyone looking to make a buck will soon be frustrated and fall away. This community is littered with the bones of these people.

Both e-smith and Mitel set a very rigid vision for the project. It was never an open project, and the sickness in this community is a carry over from its history. People were in fact encouraged to make contribs, but not for reasons you might think. It was partially because it might be free development for the project, but it was mainly because if it did not fit the e-smith/Mitel vision they weren't going to expend energy on it, but you were free to pursue it if need be. Check out just how few contribs ever made it into the core product, or even as official addons.

Good or bad? Who is to say?

Frankly, any successful project is at the beginning driven almost religiously by one or perhaps a few people with the vision and the passion. SME Server is not so large as to be beyond that stage. It needs a champion and an evangelist. Until such a believer shows up, I doubt there will be a savior for SME Server.

For whatever it's worth.

Scott

[SSBN]

RequestedDeletion sorry for my unnecessary post. I was just tying to get across there is a market for SME. In retrospect it was not required.

But I do stand by my point that the group that released 6.0.1 did one hell of a job and are still the best people for the job. That is if they want it. That leads to my other point that is also valid. Who wants to lead the project and will the community allow it. Their was never more dissent then when the contribs people took it upon themselves to release a new version. But it in my opinion was the only way things will move along.
[/quote]

[Peter]

Hi Scott

I take your point re e-smith/Mitel revenue stream. I under stand this project is not about money and is not a get rich fast product.

The point I am trying to make is we are leaderless with no direction, development and very little progress.

Even if enough revenue was generated to pay a devoted team lead that would have the drive and motivation to get some direction back into this project to enable it to move forwarded it would help. I have no idea how much revenue E-smith/Mitel generated but it did generate some! At the moment the burden is on a few and it is plane to see they are getting fed up to the back teeth with it all. Just how long are we prepared for Geoff to have to foot the bill and take the abuse before we act?

I could not agree more with you. It will take a dedicated lover of this software with the necessary skills to lead this project and if they are willing to do it for free! That’s great.

So if there is one or more out there, Step up now your skills are urgently needed but if, as I suspect, most people spend enough of their time trying to keep themselves afloat and nobody is willing to take the lead, then we have no alternative but employ somebody maybe under the control of say Geoff and an appointed team of volunteers.

I, and I guess other’s, would be more than happy to be a re-seller and pay a re-seller’s retainer this would generate an ongoing revenue stream, or, I could just make a one off donation of a few $$ to ease my cognisance. Without a reliable renewable revenue flow who is going to take on the costs in hardware and man hours not only for the short term but longer term development.

Yes it may differ from the dream of so called FREE Software. Welcome to the real world. When it comes down to it, not much is being asked from those like me who make a profit from the product but do not have the necessary skills to contribute.

Re-sellers need to feel they are getting something extra for their money or they will only make one donation and not bother again. This is why they need direct support from the development team or a least have somewhere to turn other than ask a question and hope for an answer on a forum as good as it is!  This is real live server software we are dealing with, users can’t wait for months for somebody, nobody to come up with a fix or fill a security hole it’s not like having a server at home with no consequences. We who operate in the real world do have consequences, responsibilities and liabilities and are willing to pay for our Support!

Without a Leader paid or unpaid nothing will be achieved.
Without development nothing will be achieved
Without Support Nothing will be achieved

Are you prepared to install this software as a business venture knowing full well there is no adequate support or development the only prospect of a fix is to ask and hope?

COME ON Guys! This product is to good to put it on the same level as a Web calendar project by a collage student with no long term involvement. The web is full of projects supported by volunteers going absolutely knower.

[RonM]

Thanks, Scott - I was thinking up something like this, but you said it better. Only love of this project will move it forward. It was never an open project, and the sickness in this community is a carry over from its history. The dream of creating revenue from SME (at least directly) is a high risk, low probability adventure.

Where we differ, perhaps, is in outlook.

It may be difficult to make money with SME, but that doesn't change whether or not we need it. It isn't contribs.org that needs the money, it's the community that needs the money, if we want the distro to survive. IMO, if we try to move the project again at this point, we might as well shoot it and get it over with. We've had too much attrition already.

While I appreciate the idea of a leader, a central point to rally around, set priorities, etc., we don't need a savior, we've had too many already. I think that's just a continuation of the 'sickness': "Build an active and attractive project and distro for me, so I can use it without effort or worry about the future. By the way, I need SME to support file transfer to flash memory cards over USB 2.0, with format conversion to FAT32. Thanks." That's half the 'sickness' in a nutshell: it was never an open project, we were peripheral to it, it didn't matter, really, whether we "gave anything back" or not, so we got used to getting SME for free, like "free beer". We felt entitled to regular updates, and became aggravated if they were too long in coming. A few champions regularly pitched in (and were sometimes castigated for trespass), but the majority of us (me, too) just let it happen. I think we're starting to come out of the coma now, but you can still see the symptoms everywhere. We're still saying "Somebody must do something" instead of "I'm going to do X". Even when we volunteer to help, we want someone to tell us what to do, and get angry if no one does.

The other half (of the 'sickness') is that most of us (me, too), whatever we may desire, do not have the skills to contribute to the core distro in any meaningful way, and we let it stop us from contributing at all. A few months back, a news item was posted that said approx 7% of the hits on contribs.org were from Linux OS's. Most of the rest were no doubt from windows boxes, and this probably reflects the community well: 90% windows users. This is a fundamental issue with the distro, after all. SME is not so wonderful to someone who could build a server from source, with all the functionality desired, in a long Saturday afternoon. We love it, frankly, because it lets us put Linux to good use without having to do the hard work to understand all the details. We learn by doing.

So let's quit calling it 'sickness', and call it 'ignorance' instead. We're not used to open-source projects, and tend to think they exist in order to give us free software. The commercial element confuses our goals, and dilutes our efforts. We don't have the skills for all the hard work that has been/needs to be done. We need money to survive, but don't seem to have any good way to come up with it. What's a mother to do?

Whatever she can, of course! The same news item said contribs.org gets 1.8 million hits a month from 48k visitors. Without getting hung up on the accuracy of those numbers, that's a lot of interest in a supposedly stagnant and uncompetitive distro, more than enough to do what needs to be done. Each of us do our piece, and we just have to hope that it adds up to be enough. Don't kid yourself that your input is useless. We are the saviors of SME, the champions and evangelists, the admins and developers and leaders. Look around. Who else is there but each other?

This project is not stagnant: several grand folks have stepped up to help just in the last few days - just for the love of it. Several more have been working all along; in the forums, in bug tracker, on security - just for the love of it. The contribs team has sweated bullets to create and repair this site - just for the love of it. A number of folks have given money - just for the love of it. We (all of us) are still here. We just need to step it up a notch.

[ngomes]

Hi everyone,

Just to help all of us to define some directions for OUR wonderfull distro please also read, vote and post on the following thread (only if you feel that's usefull for our community):

Organization Models for OUR distro:
http://forums.contribs.org/index.php?topic=22845.0

Thanks,
Nuno Gomes

[SSBN]

How about a well publicized meeting in the new chat room to discuss the direction in real time. A hosted teleconference call would be even better but not free. But I am sour people would donate money to pay for it. Talking in person wherever possible is always best.

[Anonymous]

Hi,

I'm a newcomer to contribs.org, and have just recently become aware of your situation and leadership/direction desires.  But having been in a similar situation myself, I can tell you that just having come this far is quite an accomplishment.  If I understand correctly, e-smith product(s) were made out of a love of Linux and open source and a DiY attitude.  They existed because they filled a need and were pretty cool things to boot.  After time, e-smith got acquired, the team and products were discontinued, and still you all have managed to put out new products.  That's pretty cool.

Every project needs, of course, leadership and direction.  From my experience - fwiw - projects that strive to be true democracies don't get very far.  There needs to be some hierarchies, and there needs to be someone with the authority to say "this is a cool idea and we need to pursue it, and i'm willing to bet the future of this organization on that idea", "hey that's a cool idea but we don't have the resources now/it doesn't fit in with our business model/we should do it but not now/etc.", and even "that idea stinks".

Having a sleek, slim organization can be much better than a large one.  As an example, I created a [now defunct] web site five years ago called the Linux Knowledge Base.  I had two competitors that I knew of - linuxkb.org, a larger group with democratic-style everyone-gets-a-vote leadership, and Linuxcare, a $30m VC funded organization that was growing so fast it couldn't keep track of its own employees, much less figure out how to start a Knowledge Base.

And there was me.  I created the site within four days and announced it.  It was small, and had little content, but the key is I got it done *because* I didn't have the bureaucracy the other two did.  Bigger isn't always better.  To my knowledge, linuxkb.org never got anything to a release status, after years of work, and Linuxcare bought mine out.  Having a dedicated, focused team is your strength.  Leadership and direction won't come from "everyone gets a vote, and we do what the majority wants".

In my experience, leaders aren't voted in, they step up to the plate.  Of course there are exceptions, and my experience is rather limited and one-sided.  But even for something like the President of the USA - the tens of millions of voters don't vote the President into office.  The 500-some seat Electoral College does.

Your community is your strength.  Give them something to get excited about and watch them crawl out of the woodwork, eager as they can be to help.

Thanks!

Joseph Cheek

[pwgsc1]

Hey Folks,

I've been reading a whole lot of stuff and frankly my brain is starting to get a little muddled with all the ideas floating around.

I'm choosing to listen to jeff, RequestedDeletion, etc, the people who have gotten us to this point because I appreciate their hard work and dedication. You dance with the one who brung one.  

I'm thinking there has to be a better way to identify things that have to be done and people to do them.  What's the chances of the key players posting a page with an itemized list of "thing to be done", they could be one offs or regular duties and maybe a short description of the skills required to do said work? People can start signing up to do them, everyone will be clear on what has to be done, who's doing it, where extra work is required and we are moving forward. The list and players will be ever evolving but it will always be clear who's doing what and where the gaps are.  

I know I'm asking someone else to do this and it will be one of the key folks BUT I thing people (including me)  will be more likely to sign up and contribute if they have a list in they can pick from.

Thanks,

Craig

[RonM]

I'm thinking there has to be a better way to identify things that have to be done and people to do them. What's the chances of the key players posting a page with an itemized list of "thing to be done", they could be one offs or regular duties and maybe a short description of the skills required to do said work? People can start signing up to do them, everyone will be clear on what has to be done, who's doing it, where extra work is required and we are moving forward. The list and players will be ever evolving but it will always be clear who's doing what and where the gaps are.

Good idea, Craig. I started such a list by copying the package maintenance list. If everyone wants to work this way, its available here:
http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php/Site%20Work%20List

A cpl comments: Some items are one-offs, some are more open-ended. We're all volunteers, helping out with something now is not the same as promising to maintain it for the next ten years, unless you think it's worthwhile and _want_ to do it.

A cpl items have volunteers already (earlier in this forum). No doubt they're interested in having help - you should probably talk talk to them.

Please feel free to add items to the work list if you want to do them.[/quote]

[el_dir]

Hello:

This is my first post. I have cast a couple of votes, but usually do not get to involved in the discussion simply because most people do not have the ability to present a concise directed statement/arguement.

However....

My take on things are as follows:
-create a flow chart (basic programming and
 development technique) to which registered users can
 apply to be a part of the (community) team that
 developes/debugs/contributes modules, ideas, fixes,
 docs or How-To's.
-require that all registered users contribute in one
 way or another (all members should be required to
 vote on critical issues and account dropped if
 voting does not happen); at least everyone will be
 able to say they spoke up with yes/no/undecided
-all registered users should be required to aid
 financially to the production/distribution to which
 any of the following my apply: cash in small monthly
 portions, blank media (or better) burned stack of
 cd's with the latest distro on them, programming or
 beta testing of new modules/add-ons etc. etc.

I am sure that just about everyone here could add to the suggestion list.

Unfortunately...there are those who take take take and then demand demand demand and offer nothing in return, I have read some of the forum posts but usually stop very shortly after starting considering the usual attitude or tone of the post threads.

I further offer the following if accepted:
- proof-reading of the How-to and docs (4 to 6
  hours week - more or less as time permits)
- a monthly contribution of $15 US/month paid
  quarterly (you should recieve a money order
  shortly after this post goes public).
- 25 copies of the distro on cd in paper sleeves
  every quarter (hopefully scheduled with a new
  release).
- 25 copies of the contribs section of ftp server
  every quarter.

This is as I consider a reasonable contrib (that is the name of the site is it not "contribs.org") to the approximate value of

 1) 50 cd = $39
 2) 4 to 6 hours of labor @85/hr = ($340 to $510) cdn
 3) documentation and how-to that are easier to read
    and understand
 4) less cost of distribution to the contribs
    team/community
 5) reduced time required by the contribs team
    for creation of shipable media

total value of my contribution = nearly invaluable  

[pwgsc1]

Hey Ron,

I like it!  The format is great, I especially like the LOG section so at a glance you know if there is any action happening in that section.

I see what you've got done as a format for the sub-sections of the global master listing of things to be done. Is that your take on it?

Great,

Craig

[Kobus]

Hi there

I have just been a bit busy of late and now I come back and hear the very sad news.

Well here is my 2 pennies worth of comments.

To all the sado's out there that can not, dont want or are just plain to lazy to do anything. Grow up. This is a service very well maintained. Sometimes you dont get the answer, but hey its free and THANK YOU to all the very good people out there that has helped me in the past and will in the future. IF we keep this going.

Now I have to say that I did not previously volunteer as I did not think I had the right skills but I am willing to moderate, some admin, some general other help if you still want some.

I can possibly help in a few others but can not think of any at the mo so if you want send me a small email and I can try.

Regards Kobus

[Anonymous]

I see what you've got done as a format for the sub-sections of the global master listing of things to be done. Is that your take on it?

Thanks, Craig. Yes, but it's just intended as a beginning. Please feel free to start on something you're  interested in, make suggestions here, etc.

RonM[/quote]

[wellsi]

For people who want to help a little some more small tasks are being added to the following page:

http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php/Site%20Work%20List

Any help is appreciated.

An example small task, which is suitable for anyone, and that would help begineer's enormously is 'How to install an RPM'.

rpm -uvh *.rpm is one answer, but that presumes that the user has found the command line and that the rpm is on or visible from the server. The user may not have created any additional users or ibays, so only primary would be available...

[Anonymous]

I find it very interesting that Jeff says it is now up to the "community" to take control and get involved after all the complaining, but the huge workload can't be just dumped on people or it will scare them off (See an earlier post from byRequestedDeletion in response to an offer to help - he basically tried to dump everything on the first person to offer help - STUPID!, STUPID!!, STUPID!!!)

Some months ago now I got involved in tring to set up a community structure but hit a brick wall - that brick wall was Jeff.   Now Jeff and the team have done a fantastic job and spent a lot of time and energy in getting contribs to where it is, but Jeff has made it perfectly clear that HE OWNS IT, and has total control over contribs.  And that is fair enough, BUT how can the community feel it is home when they don't have any real say about anything?

That is the brick wall and the challenge

I asked Jeff months ago to run a Poll to see if the community members were interested in becoming organised, along the lines of Debian, and even set up a draft consititution.  It needed to be a system poll not just a user iniated one, but the Poll never happened and I gave it up as banging my head againg the brick wall!

That was Jeff's choice but it became apparent, eventually, to me that since Jeff owns the hardware, the forums and has invested much time and effort, the community had little real say in it and even less control over it, and why should they?

So what we have in effect a BENEVELENT dictatorship, but a dictatorship all the same.  Now that is NOT NECESSARILY a problem if it is made clear this is how things are to be.  Perhaps we should change the somewhat perjorative word dictatorship to SPONSOR.

So...

With the SPONSOR at the head and looking after contribs web site, (hardware and infrastructure) what is needed (IMHO) is a more formalised structure with some delegated authority for SME Development and some delegated access to update some parts of contribs.

Now a structure could be defined by Jeff himself - but it needs to be defined!  OR   we could have something along the lines of the draft constitution http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php/Constitution with Jeff as the final arbitor on anything to do with Contribs.org and also perhaps a stalemate breaker on technical decisions (as I have outlined in the draft consitiution).

It all needs to be discussed but without something to indicate the interest level (like a Poll) at the start it is impossible to gauge the level of interest.  In the end Jeff has the final say.

Key Points (as I see them)

- A formal structure IS necessary. (IMHO)
- transparency of group structure, membership, processes and rules (constitution)
- transparency of what the groups are doing and what progress is being made on issues. (to-do lists and work-flow)
- transparency of the roadmap and who is making the decisions of where SME is going.
- Administration - keeping everything on track, chasing up, announcing etc (now there a job and a half!!)

I know all this sounds like an administrative nightmare (it isn't really), but I see this as a key requirement to get buy-in from those on the edges of the community.  No one expects it to just happen overnight but it, or something like it, needs to happen and in reality the next move is Jeff Coleman's.


Cheers
Peter

[Anonymous]

Dearest all

Something I've always wished for, but never gotten around to, developer/programmer...  Which unfortunately I'm not, therefore limits my contribution.  I have a total of two successful installations of SME, which has been hassle-free even maintenance-wise.  One at home, the other at the office.

I agree we need to take some sort of action, any action in order to save our beloved SME.  It's true that SME is really in trouble..  One indicator is that the PHP shipped with is still the 'venerable' 4.1.2, where the current version is somewhere at 4.3.7 (I wanted to learn PHP, that's why).

Rather than exploring/re-inventing the wheel, we could try the model of tested and proven way of doing things.  I agree with the suggestion that we appoint a CEO/President/Big Dog to take the lead with 5 year term in office. Let's look at how other distros or even other open-source OSes/projects handle things.

But before we actually do this voting thing, since contribs.org team seems to be on the verge of collapse in their epic/heroic efforts to support SME, I suggest we quickly form a protem committee, NOT to take over their duties, but to coordinate the transition period to the new management.  I mean, maybe coordinate these discussions/various suggestions/organize the elections/whatever.  These people does not have to be developers/programmers/super heroes...  just ordinary citizens who can organize..  just that.  Maybe a group of 7, or 8 or at most 10.

But I don't agree with giving only those who contributed to be able to vote.  There's some much flaw in that requirement.  One of them is that, my country does not support PayPal.  

On the other hand, I agree that we can sell subscriptions to contribs with updates or something for revenue (think FreeBSD), merchandises in the future.  We can start on a small scale.  Moreover, we already have a target market, the SME..  Back at my parents' house, their neighbour is a retired GM of a uber-large major industrial company in my country.  He once told me that big economic super-power countries are not driven by large corporations, but small companies of sub 50 employees.  I believe him.

Darn, I can't think of anything more to say, only that I believe we have to move fast on this.  It's a 'Cat eats Dog world out there nowadays'

Sincere regards and thanks

DK

-ps  No offense intended to anyone, just my plain ol' 2 cents before the 75% discount!

[andymcp]

Good thread - great to see the enthusiasm behind keeping this moving. I've read through the suggestions by wally (great post btw) for tasks/roles and will return after some peaceful deliberation to step up to the plate and assist where I can.

[boringgit]

Hiya,

Am interested in volunteering for the Install an RPM doc.

2 questions...

1 - To put myself forward for that I just edit your page? Put my initials and name at the top and then mark myself down for the task? Seems a bit forward

2 - Piccies The command line can be an intimidating thing. "type rpm -ivh package.rpm" is fine, but a picture paints a thousand words and all that guff. A few screenshots of a terminal would be nice.

What is the policy there? Links, inline images etc. etc...

[RonM]

1) Yep - step right up and take a whack at it. Sign up just so everyone know someone is working on it.

2) It's difficult but possible to include images in the wiki. If you want several images it's probably easier to make a standard web page w/images folder. We can stick it somewhere if you want, and embed it in a wiki page for navigation

RonM

[Anonymous]

Well I say lets go back to the way it was with the leadership team.

And those who think it can be done better at sourceforge well GO.

Did a great job till it all stopped and now it is floundering. Please lets get back to were there was some development and some forward looking and moving.

Great work Guys let's not let it all go to waste.

You will please some people all of the time, but you can't always please all of the people some of the time.

[Alaska Matt]

Hi All from Alaska.  I appreciate all the work that's gone into SME Server, the contribs website, and the forums; not to mention the how-tos.  Our business now has multiple offices across Alaska, and SME 6 has been a perfect fit for easy remote access, remote monitoring, and quick-n-dirty vpn file sharing.  We initially tried a full red hat distro, but found that it was easier to maintain and train users with SME.  

Since I recommended SME to be our primary server, I (like many others) now have a responsibility to assist in the upkeep of SME, support, and the distro process.  Having read this thread it appears that many well-intentioned suggestions have been made, and several work lists are already in use, but the biggest problem is that the majority of ideas cannot tie together:  a for-profit style of management is being recommended and seems to be gaining support, while a pseudo-volunteer work method is to be employed to get the actual programming and support done.  

From a management advisory standpoint, my company would like to put forward the following observations:
1)  There are tens to hundreds of thousands of users out there - many of whom are simply users, not developers.  For example - there is me, the implementer (1), and every other employee here (40).  While tended to be discredited for not putting forward "maintaining effort", these are the customers.  If they're not happy, those of us who do the actual upkeep (either locally or for the entire user-base) are not happy either.  These people likely know nothing of contribs.org, so their feedback can only be presented through long wish-lists, by people doing work similar to me.  

2)  Focus is lost.  Having just reviewed some of the documentation on the old e-smith website, the old server had a very narrow focus, as others have observed in this topic.  It's ok to have a narrow focus.  I have found numerous how-tos in recent months to implement the extended tools I've wanted or needed.  Based on the number of hits at swerts-knudsen, it appears that others are finding those useful as well.  

3)  No fearless leaders!  In a faceless organization, management boards will be the best route.  It may be best to determine an x-member (5,10,12,15?)oversight committee with specific goals or standards.  Those members should be well familiar with the project - programming, finance, membership, website, history, and support.  Beneath that, cooperative subcommittees overseeing each of these areas would then be able to determine monthly or quarterly goals, and have specific tasks available for volunteers.  Communication will be key to ensure that duplicated work is minimized.  With a management structure such as this, the work requirements on each individual will be lessened to an amount that should be relatively easy to handle, even under volunteer standards.  Many corporate oversight and guidance committees (in the U.S.) are done by professionals volunteering a portion of their time, or through companies willing to donate resources and people.  There will be plenty of volunteers who like the late-night problem solving - answering questions, creating new add-ons, and fixing security problems.  Rewards and incentives don't necessarily need to be cash-based, nor do they need to be large.  These can be set by each subcommittee in due time.

I hope this is not too vague, and I gladly look forward to reading others' ideas!

-- Alaska Matt

[boringgit]

1) Yep - step right up and take a whack at it. Sign up just so everyone know someone is working on it.

OK, signed up and put my initials against the one I will have a go at.
[/quote]

2) It's difficult but possible to include images in the wiki. If you want several images it's probably easier to make a standard web page w/images folder. We can stick it somewhere if you want, and embed it in a wiki page for navigation
[/quote]

Hmm..

Will take screen grabs where they seem appropriate, and link them.

If inline seems better I will redo then.

[RonM]

Great to see rubber on the road! Pls let us know if there is anything someone can do to help out.

[stancol]

I say the solution is simple. Stop listening to the people that didn't like the direction SME is going. Let those that didn't like the direction take off and go their own way. Well I say lets go back to the way it was with the leadership team.

I couldn't have said it better than "Guest" myself.

Did a great job till it all stopped and now it is floundering. Please lets get back to were there was some development and some forward looking and moving.

Great work Guys let's not let it all go to waste.

You will please some people all of the time, but you can't always please all of the people some of the time

Just remember that nobody ever kicks a dead dog. If people are knocking the Disto that must mean it's really good. Once again stop listen to the nay sayers and let them go their own way. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Anonymous]

Well Ill be happy to goto Sourceforge If I can get what mitel gave contribs

[sonoracomm]

Hi,

I'm a long-time E-Smith/SME user.  I benefit from it financially...my company is a 'network VAR' supporting mostly small businesses and I install 9 SME servers to every Windows or Netware box.

I'm pretty happy with SME as it is.  I think it needs SMTPAUTH pretty badly, but I mostly like it the way it is.  I also very much like the 'pretty face' the contribs.org team (?) added.  Frankly, as a professioonal support person, I don't want to see version changes too often.  Easy to apply updates, yes...version upgrades no.

I want to thank everyone who has helped me over the years by answering my posts or by simply contributing to a really great project.  THANK YOU ALL!

I haven't been very active on the forums lately, but I have, over the years, helped a lot of folks.  I'll try to answer a few more posts.

As for ideas, I have a couple.  As I'm not a programmer, nor web designer, nor do I have much free time, I gravitate towards financial assistance ideas.

1) How about creating a ClubSME...something like ClubMandrake...Web based and low-maintenance.  Mandrake pulled themselves out of bankruptcy (partly) using this mechanism.  I joined the Club at the $65/year level simply to contribute to a good cause and because I felt guilty for not paying ANYTHING.  It might even be tax deductible!?  (I'm no accountant either)

2) I'm sure there are lots of other resellers/VARs/vendors out there making money supporting SME.  What if we had a campaign/program/web page/awards (or something) for the number of 'sponsors' or 'ClubSME Memberships' we signed up.  Hell, I'd like a SME coffee mug or T-shirt!  I'm sure I could sign up every new SME server customer to the 'Club' at the $65/year level with no problem...

I don't know how we would use or distribute the funds generated, but I can't help but think it would help.

3) If anyone thinks it valuable/useful/helpful, I would offer my expertise for paid support.  Assuming this hasn't already been done, Why don't we create a 'Support' page where support professionals can offer their (paid) services for people needing urgent support.  This sounds like a 'Professional' ClubSME membership level to me...  

4) Over the years, I have written a 'Supporting SME' document that we use here to help support our customers in the field.  It's not a manual, per se, but a guide to implementing certain features that many small businesses need.  Maybe it could be a useful SME documentation supplement?  The only part I have previously published was an ASSP spam filtering howto (which is about to be updated)...

5) I virtually always have test boxes around where I could test new features/versions.  If this would be helpful, I could help with testing.

G

Gene Cooper
Sonora Communications, Inc.

[stancol]

I wasn't much in favor of a paid SME function, mostly because I think it would limit users. Does sound like a good idea to start a Paid Support Area. If you want priority support you could log onto a page that you've subscribed to, to get expert advice in a timely manner. Profits could go back to support Contribs.org and maybe some of the support staff. Somewhat like Red Hat used to do with updates. You could always get the updates for free if you wanted to wait until the paid people got theirs first. This way you could generate some cash but not cut out the people that wouldn't want to or couldn't pay for support. The community would stay large enough to cover all needs but might be able to generate some cash at the same time. I wouldn't even mind paying for expert advice if I knew I could get it in a timely manner. You could offer the service on a pay-per-use basis and/or a monthly subscription basis. Lets face it folks bandwidth isn't free and there shouldn't be anything wrong with Contribs.org wanted to recoup some money or even making some profits. Profits would benefit the community too in that upgrades to servers and soft wear to run the site could be bought when needed. Contrary to what you see on TV making money isn't just for greedy selfish people.

[Anonymous]

When will you guys get it through your thick heads that 'democracy' is just another word for 'mob rule', and it doesn't work. Look at the miracle of Singapore for example.  Or Korea.  How far do you think they would have come without benign dictatorship?  

Why do the wingers and whiners who moan about everything and contribute nothing see it as their god given right to inflict their views on the rest of us?  Because they know that they can wreck almost everything without doing anything other than appealing to your overblown sense of fair play.  

Take my tip.  Tell them that the only people who can determine in which direction this project goes are those who contribute.  They more they contribute the more 'say' they can have, and vice versa -- no ticky... no laundly!  Put up or shut the f**k up.

Give me benign dictatorship any day of the week.  You may not like the direction but at least you know its going somewhere.

Now, where was I...

 

[terencem]

When will you guys get it through your thick heads that 'democracy' is just another word for 'mob rule', and it doesn't work. Look at the miracle of Singapore for example.  Or Korea.  How far do you think they would have come without benign dictatorship?  

Why do the wingers and whiners who moan about everything and contribute nothing see it as their god given right to inflict their views on the rest of us?  Because they know that they can wreck almost everything without doing anything other than appealing to your overblown sense of fair play.  

Take my tip.  Tell them that the only people who can determine in which direction this project goes are those who contribute.  They more they contribute the more 'say' they can have, and vice versa -- no ticky... no laundly!  Put up or shut the f**k up.

Give me benign dictatorship any day of the week.  You may not like the direction but at least you know its going somewhere.

Now, where was I...

 

Ooops!  That was me.  Sorry, I forgot to log in.

[shmeg]

Hi All,
I have been following and contributing to discussions and I have disovered that I have become frustrated, and I suspect a few of us are in a similar position.

I have been deploying SME since 4.1.2 upwards of 100 installations. I have been on the development leg devising ways to use sme under full and half duplex satellite, radius and the latest effort vpopmail. I have never documented these solutions though I have offered support consistently in forums.

The last paragraph was simply to demonstrate my commitment to this distro. The next I hop emight clarify some of our issues.

I have been tossing around what exactly ARE our issues it all seems very muddy at the moment.

Maybe the following might help us clarify things:
It seems to me that we are combining very distinct needs and trying to satisfy all in one bucket.

We need to divest contribs.org of core development and support it in what it does best - hosting the user community. We have two priorities here: Support and core development! Separate needs, separate solutions.

Core needs
----------
Core distro development (future releases)
- A core team of dedicated skilled deveopers who are in it for the long haul. The priority to move development to later kernels - not for the faint hearted.

Core distro development (current updates and bugfixes)
- As above but possibly other less skilled devlopers or developers with lower commitment levels or resources.

Sourceforge seems the best place to do this. the collaboration facilities already exist and are proven.
The core teams can be organised immediately, without having to prove and develop ways to communicate.

Support
-------
Contribs.org offers the best opportunity for this community to survive.

User community (hosting and maintenance)
- I hope Jeff will continue to generously offer hosting and site support (including backup   ).
Regular backup mirrored at other sites donated by volunteers would make sense.

User community (Updates and content)
This is up to the majority of 'I am not a developer, I have a bit of experience, I want to help but what can I do?" type people. This looks like an excellent place to volunteer and get started.
http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php/Site%20Work%20List

User community (Online support and howtos)
Contribs.org provides an online repository of forums, howtos, and contribs storage. The majority of us contribute just as we always have.

Third party contribs
--------------------
Contrib hosting
On contribs.org (primary site for tested rpms (another issue)) untested on developers sites

Contrib Support
Separate forum on contribs.org for each tested rpm
untested support in general forums or on developers site

Independant developers
support their own sites and support unless putting their rpms up for testing and therefore validating them for sme.


Additional considerations
-------------------------
EVERYONE should have to login to post. Sick of reading abuse only to find that someone hasn't had the guts to sign in. Or as I just discovered the timeouts aren't sufficient to write an essay like this.

I am in support of free reading of support forums but you have to have membership to post. This should be nominal. $5-$10pa or similar. This to go to support the running of contribs.org under an transperant and accountable process. I have said it before and I will say again. Jeff you own the hardware and site but the posted content belongs to the community. We all posted in good faith for the benefit of everyone and that is to be preserved. However jeff and his team should not have to take abuse from us when they generously offer resources to this project. Memberships should pay for this. The balance are paid in honorariums to core distro developers as equal shares. No this should not become a paid project! for good reasons which we can discuss later - but as stated frequently nothing is free.

This stuff is basic: most of us don't care how the details get worked out as long as the distro survives and progress in a positive manner! I was only recently telling someone how unique the support for sme is (positive and generous) exactly what is intended in a community of this nature.

OK SO NEXT STEPS
We need a register of skills separated in the above areas with current contact details. I am willing to mediate this process, and I know a couple of you have similar project management backgrounds like me.

Email me with your contact details and nominated areas of committment. If you have any areas or resources to commit to the above needs areas email me: I will compile a list.

register@sme.ontrack.com.au

If you have project management skill as mentioned email me so we can get together a working party that will do
nothing except sort out some directions for us to take. This WP is not development or SME direction it if for project leadership only.

If I have overstepped the mark, I apologise to those who feel a bit offended/threatened that I have stepped up to the plate. Tell me to pull my head in . . thats fine I will go back to my busy life. But please be sure you are volunteering to take responsibility in improving my suggestions.

I have assumed a lot in the above re: Jeff and Hsing other very committed people. I like others do not know how deeply involved in the project people are? Please distribute this to people you know should be reading it.

I will see who registers and sends comments directly then I will distribute back to the community. I see my place in this process as a mediator and motivator.
Please don't attack me for stepping up (this is an imperfect start - but isnt it great to start) - offer something contructive to move on.

Deadline is one week from today to register.
Next Wednesday the 21st July I will post a list minus privates and confidentials in the needs areas to give
feedback on whether this process will move ahead.

Ben Morrisson BA-Media CCNA CCDA (for those who care of such things)
Technical Director
InterWorX Technologies

[lancew]

Hi all,

here is my contribution to the debate.

I agree leadership is required, the formality of which is up to us to decide. Personally I don't think it needs to be overly heavy.

The idea of moving a bulk of the effort to sourceforge sounds sensible. After all Sourceforge is all about providing the tools to allow projects to develop.

It may also simplify the leadership issue. Those who are interested can/could become "Developers" and they would then lead the project forward. No elections no B.S. etc. Simply those who contribute would lead things forward.

Lets also not fool ourselves, a project like this will be "lead" by those who write the code. So as much as I as a non-coder might want to drive things along the reality is that it will only happen if there are people who are happy to write the code and listen to my ideas/suggestions.

So my personal "path forward" is this...
 1)Move the "distro" to sourceforge
 2)Those who want to be involved sign up as "developers"
 3)We compile a list of suggestions for the distro
 4)We invite people to list the three top suggestions that should be implemented
 5)Those who can do the work implement the top three
 6)Make a release
 7)GOTO 7

Thoughts?

Lance

[cranky]

Hi to all and specifically the contibs.org leaders!

I'd like to start my opus with a thank you to all who have worked on the distro and the contribs site to date.  Your work is appreciated.
IMHO one of the issues we have is a communication problem.  There is little 'official' communication from the team (development, documentation, leadership etc.) to the contribs community in a spot that is easy to find.  We have comments in numerous threads running through the forums made by people that are
1) fed up of people complaining and not helping the community
2) offering to help but don't know what is needed
3) offering to help but don't know who to coordinate their efforts with
4) either offering to or actually 'taking charge' of some aspect of moving our distro forward (which inadventantly seems to duplicate a similar offer(s) in other threads...)

With the latest 'State of the Distro' thread, we again have a call to action and these four similar types of posts have occured in a number of concurrent threads.  What I have noticed is that we are not getting much feedback from those that have led us this far in the first place!  This is NOT a knock on them personally, but how is one to know what to volunteer for if regular, centralized feedback is not provided by those who are leading contribs.org?

A number of polls have been created for such issues as how hosting should be handled and what our organization should look like in the future.  At what point do these suggestions get acted on and by whom?  I'm not being sarcastic - I'm confused about this point.  Judging from the tone of the initial post from JC, with these excerpts in particular...

"...Frankly, the contribs team is sick of the complaints. YOU (not someone else), start figuring out how to get the recent e-smith updates into the SME Server. YOU (not someone else), develop a leadership structure and get those leaders to set an agenda for the future. Once that is done, YOU (not someone else), needs to participate with code snippets and development and helping out the newbies that will be the future developers of SME Server...Start developing leadership and code or it simply won't matter in the long run. We'll be here to provide the venue. YOU need to provide the rest."

it appears that our team wants to turn leadership over to others.  Two posts later, it appears that the site maintenance is about to be passed on to the first volunteer.  And two post after that it appears from the tone of the msg that maybe the existing team doesn't really want to throw in the towel...

"...If anyone volunteers here, we will gladly assign you a task that needs to be done and fits within your skills. It's then up to you to do the work  and we will ALL benefit from the results..."

.

Does our current leadership actually want to pass the baton on to others?  Is this actually the case or is this frustration at the lack of help/volunteers?  How are we to know?  If the current group wishes to have somebody take over a role, what is the framework for this to happen?  Our current leaders are the ones who should specify what they want, how it should be done and by when.  Ask specifically for the help that you want and the 'by who' part of the question will be answered (eventually).

I personally think the current team did a great job with the first release and would like to see them continue.  It would be a major loss for all of us if they walked away from the project.  If more 'official' guidance was provided, perhaps the volunteering would be more to your liking.  But if you want help, why was/is there so little 'official' guidance in the form or work lists, things to do lists, etc.?  (Perhaps a project management module could be added to xoops so that we could sign out tasks that we feel are a good match to our talents)?   It appears that a good 'todo' list has been started with the 'Site Work List' in the wiki section.  Perhaps the wiki isn't the best place to manage a todo list that will extend for years, but it is a good start (again, does xoops offer a project mgmt module?).

I think if your/our needs are communicated better (for example, in the form of tasks on a list), the volunteers would step up to the plate.  If you truly are tired of running the show, please say so officially and setup a turnover framework (with whatever polls, elections, etc. that you think are needed - you're in charge).  Let's not go on floundering and let the SME project fail due to attrition.  Let's take action!

For my part, I will again volunteer my time (I have project mgmt, specification, documentation and coding experience) if you make your needs known.  I would prefer to see what is needed though, which implies a plan and a tasklist.  If one exists, please post it.  If not, I'll join the group that develops one.

Finally, please take this in the spirit of help in which it was intended rather than as criticism.

[steve413]

I have been around and using e-smith, sme server since the early days of 4.1. I think that "cranky" in his post above has summarized the problem very well or should I say "hit the nail on the head" I agree it's time for those who want to do something to continue this fine distro to put up or shut up dont get me wrong I think the contribs.org are a fine bunch of people and have done a great job with their first release but if this distro is to continue someone is going to have to provide a plan and let the commuinity know what the plan is. If contribs.org does not want to provide the leadership to organize the future development of this distro then turn it over to those who do, vise versa to those that have offered to volunteer then lets all vote for a leader and get this thing organized and quit talking about it. I’m no coder I have been doing some scripting and learning to build some rpms however what ever way I can contribute to keep this fine distro going I will try my very best to provide.

Just my two cents worth,

Steve

[shmeg]

cranky - has summarised our position very well.
In earlier posts I had committed to starting a register of volunteers, resources related to then provide this back to the community as a starting point. I have had a number of positive responses.

I have been trying to email jeff for a week now to get his input/any existing volunteer info/ and publicity for this project however I have had no response. Even a polite email telling me to butt out.

I can assume either:
Jeff/Contribs is not interested?
There is something wrong with my email?
I live on a different planet?

Anyway if anyone knows how to contact Jeff directly or can get a message to him.
Give him my phone number
+61 7 41319704 (07)41319704
+61 414 282535 0414282535

Additionally,
If you have ANY interest in this topic whatsoever please register at

register@sme.ontrack.com.au

All I am doing in compiling a list of resources - a starting point to move on - not reinventing contribs or any such thing.

cheers
Ben

[wellsi]

For the support work there is a plan, and the activity has increased recently.

There is a task list: http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php/Site%20Work%20List

And there is a volunteer page in progress:
http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php/Volunteering

Which includes one part of the current development work:
http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php/Package%20Maintenance

However the 'tasks for the next release' list is empty:
http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php/Distribution%20Work%20List

I have suggested tasks for this, based on emails on DevInfo:
http://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo/msg06860.html

All is not rosy, there is not yet a project lead for the next release:
http://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo/msg06868.html

No-one has stepped up to be the project leader for the next release (yet)
The community has not yet agreed what will be in this next release (maybe
"6.2 The Email Release"?)
A team has not formed to deliver this release.
(all IMHO there may be many things happening behind the scene)

So there is life, but I feel that it needs a strong lead to put the volunteers to work to make the next release.

----
Just to add that the contribs are arriving at a great rate, as shown by the announcements below. So there is activity but not so much visible towards the next release.
June: http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php/New%20Development%20Announcements%20June%202004
July: http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php/New%20Development%20Announcements%20July%202004

[remi]

Hi !

At first I am anxious to apologize for two reasons: my English is very bad, and I hope that you will manage to read me
I was not able to read all messages, and I hope that my weak contribution in this thread will not hamper the rest of th discussion.

Let's go !

I will to thank the team of "Contribs.org" for the already carried out and future work.
Moderator of a French-speaking support site of Ixus.net ", I was able to see the despair of the members when "Contribs.org" was down.
Network administrator in charge of profession, I set up SME in my company since the version 5.6.
Completely satisfied by this distribution, I try in my scale to make a little of advertisement:

http://www.indexel.net/doc.jsp?id=2653&origin=900
http://www.01net.com/Pdf/DIN200406280599040.pdf (Décision Micro n° 599)

Repeating certainly the thought of everybody: SME should not go out

Then here are some ideas and points of view on the question :
- Be inspired by the architecture of communities which work : I notably think of the distro " IPCOP " ( www.ipcop.org ) TAKE EXAMPLE !!
- Ask to the persons of the site for the features that they like to have. Form for example (whit multichoice)
- As say, define the road(s) map (core / contribs)
- Define leader Teamship.

But Here we are, when it is necessary to make decisions, there is any more nobody.
Everybody would like that but who decides?
There will be always persons who will not agree.
To shout it's good, but at the end of moment it does not advance things.

Without contribs.org, SME would certainly be already dead.
We have a call. It is necessary to follow it.

And personnaly, I think that the person who appealed deserves to be the leader of the project SME.
There has to have a person who has a person who makes the decisions to put back.
Jeff, I don't know you, but you have all my respect. And if people reflect it little. I hope that they shall understand like me that is needed a dictatorship, aristochratie provisoir to put back on the rails the project.


Sincerly,

Rémi

[kkolle]

Hello folks.

Having used e-smith/SME since 4.1.2 I have enjoyed the easiness of the administration of a firewall/gateway/server.

I use contribs.org infrequently mainly to get inspiration to solve problems or read Howo's etc. Today I just jumped onto contribs to learn something about some administrative tasks when I saw the post about the “crisis”.

Having only used but not contributed to the community I feel this may be the time to offer my spare minutes/hours to something great - the SME server.

Having read through the thread I find that there are several tasks needed to be dealt with. As I see it (and others see it) there are two main groups of tasks:

1. The Community - contribs.org
2. The continuing development

As I understand from the thread the community maintenance can be done by several even non technical  persons; moderation I believe does not require any or just a little technical knowledge. So I will leave this part to others.

The second group of tasks are development. As a B. Sc. E.E. with software development as my main work area since mid eighties and running my own small SW-development company for 11 years I would hereby offer my self as a kind of project manager for the development team.

I do develop a little my self still, but my time are through the last 3-4 years more and more spent on project management as well as general management. The reason for me offer my spare time into project management.

From my point of view we need to gather a some developers with different profiles including at least these:

a. User interface specialists (the Perl and HTML stuff)
b. Kernel developers
c. Server specialists (mail, samba, apache, etc.)
d. Distribution specialists
e. Probably more ... your suggestions

I would be happy to lead some of the groups or the general management for all groups. I think that even in the Open Source community we need leadership as mentioned in other posts.

Please NOTE: Leaders or managers does not mean dictatorship on the contrary; as a Dane I am accustomed to democratic leadership letting the individuals have a high degree of self motivation through a great freedom in planning the work to be done.

I see the leaders or managers more like a chairman of a board who has to listen to all parties and try to bend the opinions toward a common one. The chairmans main responsibility is to facilitate that the board are moving forward by pointing out directions to go.

Of course the leader sometimes has to decide between two or more alternatives, but the decision has to be based on what the leader has heard from “the board” - here the team members. In Denmark we do have very flat company organisations with only a few managers and not a deep level of leaders, managers, vice presidents, CEO's, etc. as I have seen in other contries.

I do not think that geographic location means anything in a project like the SME-server. Maybe it might even be a strength in the length by for instance focusing on that the software will run properly with local languages (having quite a lot more letters than in the English alphabet) or focusing on that different cultures may have other requirements than the North Americans has.

SourceForge for development and distribution I find is a good idea as it facilitates exactly the needs a development team has, but I think we should have the forums, howtos, etc. on a member driven site of our own like the contribs.org.

I will offer backup capacity for contribs.org if needed on my servers in my company so we can avoid future lost of material from the community and relatively quickly restore the site if ever again needed. I do not yet have the line capacity to offer a true mirror.

Finally please forgive my English - it is just my second language and accept my offers if you can accept my humble terms of conditions.

Klaus Kolle

[gcrumb]

How was the orginal E-smith site/distro held together?  It appeared to have leaders and a direction.  Are these people still involved in the current SME server?  E-smith 4.1.2 became very popular and got noticed.  How did they accomplish this?  SME is too great of a project to let the momentum die.

e-smith.org (which preceded contribs.org as the community-oriented site) was operated by e-smith, inc. and largely supported and administered by its staff. There were - and still are - a number of volunteers who have made valuable contributions to the product itself, some of which were subsequently rolled into the core product.

I worked for e-smith (and later, when it was purchased , for Mitel) for a few years, and can attest to the significant amount of time and effort that was expended keeping things up to date, maintaining the discussion forums and mailing lists, etc.

Especially after e-smith's acquisition by Mitel, it became harder for staff to invest the same amount of time and effort into the maintenance of the site. I'd go so far as to say that efforts to give freely to the community were viewed by some at Mitel as counter-productive. Why couldn't we focus on things that made the company money? That was, after all, what we were paid to do.

I went to work for e-smith, inc. because of an article I saw, written by two individuals at the core of early e-smith development. This article described a server that was able to run on old machinery in adverse circumstances and provide needed communication ability to people who didn't necessarily have the means to configure and maintain current server OSes.

Years later, I find myself working in a developing nation, running e-smith^WSME Server on Pentium-class machines for organisations who would not otherwise be able to access the Internet or use a network. I've installed 2 such networks already, and will install 3  more within the next month. The networks currently running e-smith both have better than 99.9% uptime.

I'm glad that this server is back in the hands of the community, and I genuinely hope that the recent rancour will be replaced by the kind of volunteerism that characterised this distro's early days. There has been sniping in the past, and there likely will be again in the future. I ask you all to bear in mind, though, that the way this distro became so good is because people like you and me made it that way.

As someone once said, 'A single line of running code trumps a thousand lines of argument.'

[cranky]

Pardon me for asking but, after the big ruckus that the original post caused, has anything changed?

In my earlier post in this thread, I lamented that communication was lacking.  As I monitor this forum, the  thread is no longer sticky, and is dropping from the radar screen.  Are we to assume that things are OK now?

I DO NOT wish to rake up the muck here.  But I find myself asking:
1) Has the urgency surrounding our potential demise changed?  Have we as a group resolved that things are progressing as desired?  Have we resolved our financial and volunteer needs?
2) Do we have a roadmap to the next release or is a group in place that is planning it?
3) A number of polls were created to gauge the position(s) of our community.  Are any of these recommendations being acted on (or discussed)?
4) Are we in a satisfactory position with regard to volunteers working on the next release, the web site, documentation, etc.?
5) What are the PLANS for our next releases and website changes.

This is not meant to be harsh or mean spirited.  I ask these questions not to annoy those in charge, but simply due to a lack of feedback (see my earlier post).  Who are we to turn to for answers?  Please advise.

[wellsi]

cranky,

I can understand the frustration. Each time there is a burst of enthusiasm it lasts for a few weeks, but then it fades.

You have five good questions, I hope you get good answers otherwise we need to consider that the end may be near.

[mbachmann]

1. I see quite a few people volunteer and working. For the financel part i don't know, probably not. But a lot of people offered substantial help and support.

2. Don't know.

3. They are being considered. Takes time.

4. As i can see: yes.

5. My plans are: contribute constantly.

[Tino]

If this thread is still alive, I don't know that, but I feel complelled to add my thoughts to this paticular matter.

Firstly, I have nothing of value to offer, due to the fact that my knowledge on managing this type "community" is non-existent.

I would like to say this to Mr Coleman, with all due respect to him, the day that you upgraded your hobby to , unfortunately, an inherited responsibility, you took control of an International "community". If this was an International company, you would be the CEO of the company.

No matter what type of company you work for, and being at the head of it all, you will always find unhappy employees. No matter what you do...., and I have compassion for the problem caused by the "community employees".

This is where leadership come in to play - regardless of all the fleck you WILL get. You and your team has the responsibility in FOCUSSING and LEADING this "company" into a certain direction.

Direction? The direction of a company is generally decided upon by multiple parties.  My thoughts will lead me to ask "What are we trying to achieve with the SME Server Product, and who are we going to involve in getting us to the "public" direction of the product.

I started using SME about 8 months ago, I have never been more "treated" by this product than ever before. But it has its problem areas, from a integrator side that is not knowlegdable on the platform - like me. I would rely on this type of "community" to guide me, not repairing or suppoting the product - in that case we are all soon to head the MS way - rather get the customer to pay for support...what the hell, to hell with this Linux SME Server business.......


WRONG thinking. Do not carry this across to your International install-base. They will loose faith in the product. Like any other business....when there are bad rumours about the company, people won't invest, they tend to go elsewhere. (You might think...Yeh let them go...see if I care).

Wrong again...
I have been happy with the original steering committee, and would like to see that you do not loose focus because of a few kids hanging around in the halls complaining at everything. Do not get emotional about this...this is part of business / life.

SME is a Linux Business Solutions Server. - not for the kids at home wanting to play mp3 and surf porn-sites.

Let people in business assist in driving the FOCUS. With common knowledge of Small to Medium size Enterprises (SME) business requirements, you will have an understanding of the real value of the SME server is and where to drive the FOCUS AND DIRECTION to.

SME Server is a jewel, that we as Linux believers can't afford to loose. It is crusial to continue with driving the Focus, setting goals, achieving those goals and ensure that the required input from the public (not end-user) be gathered.

It is my believe that, should this community fail, it will be the last of a Linux server solution, known throughout the world as one of the fastest install-base servers out there, that is stable and continually advancing in technology and functionality. Don't screw this up for the rest of us.

You have a lot of bright people out there that already spent hours of their free time to supply us with solutions, regardless if was only an url to point somebody to more information. PLEASE DON'T LOOSE THESE HIGH CALIBRE PEOPLE....PLEASE.!

I also feel that the forum has become more of a kiddies play ground wanting to know how to play movies, play mp3's, how they can host a lan game with three people connecting. That is absolutely B/S!!.

People must be interested in SME for its tremendous value within the corporate world not to play friggin games on it....


I realy don't want to see this community fail because of ignorance. Please keep this forum PURE and ALIVE.

I hope it work out well in the future.


Best Regards,

Tino Fourie
(mind the spelling, I was speed typing this one.)

[CharlieBrady]

How was the orginal E-smith site/distro held together?  It appeared to have leaders and a direction.  Are these people still involved in the current SME server?  E-smith 4.1.2 became very popular and got noticed.  How did they accomplish this?

Venture capital.

[RMOORE]

Adding clustering to this package would realy  make it
more robust.

[guest22]

What kind of 'clustering' are you thinking of ?

[RMOORE]

I would like to cluster multiple sme servers.
I read a couple of articles and did not finde any easy.
can anyone point me in the right directions?

[guest22]

RMOORE,

I was refering to what type of 'clustering' you mean, what is it that you exactly want to achieve. What docs did you find?

[RMOORE]

I would like to use  two or more sme 6.5 servers as clustered to provide faul tolorance and also provide a form of load balancing.Any sujestion

[guest22]

Your clustering request is a 2 part thing:

1. High availability
2. Load balancing

I have 'played' with High availability (1 active, 1 standby server, with LAN/WAN Raid-1) Search for High Availability How-To on contribs.org, maybe it helps you in your search.

guest