Topic: The State of the Distro

[ngomes]

Hi everyone,

Just to help all of us to define some directions for OUR wonderfull distro please also read, vote and post on the following thread (only if you feel that's usefull for our community):

Organization Models for OUR distro:
http://forums.contribs.org/index.php?topic=22845.0

Thanks,
Nuno Gomes

[SSBN]

How about a well publicized meeting in the new chat room to discuss the direction in real time. A hosted teleconference call would be even better but not free. But I am sour people would donate money to pay for it. Talking in person wherever possible is always best.

[Anonymous]

Hi,

I'm a newcomer to contribs.org, and have just recently become aware of your situation and leadership/direction desires.  But having been in a similar situation myself, I can tell you that just having come this far is quite an accomplishment.  If I understand correctly, e-smith product(s) were made out of a love of Linux and open source and a DiY attitude.  They existed because they filled a need and were pretty cool things to boot.  After time, e-smith got acquired, the team and products were discontinued, and still you all have managed to put out new products.  That's pretty cool.

Every project needs, of course, leadership and direction.  From my experience - fwiw - projects that strive to be true democracies don't get very far.  There needs to be some hierarchies, and there needs to be someone with the authority to say "this is a cool idea and we need to pursue it, and i'm willing to bet the future of this organization on that idea", "hey that's a cool idea but we don't have the resources now/it doesn't fit in with our business model/we should do it but not now/etc.", and even "that idea stinks".

Having a sleek, slim organization can be much better than a large one.  As an example, I created a [now defunct] web site five years ago called the Linux Knowledge Base.  I had two competitors that I knew of - linuxkb.org, a larger group with democratic-style everyone-gets-a-vote leadership, and Linuxcare, a $30m VC funded organization that was growing so fast it couldn't keep track of its own employees, much less figure out how to start a Knowledge Base.

And there was me.  I created the site within four days and announced it.  It was small, and had little content, but the key is I got it done *because* I didn't have the bureaucracy the other two did.  Bigger isn't always better.  To my knowledge, linuxkb.org never got anything to a release status, after years of work, and Linuxcare bought mine out.  Having a dedicated, focused team is your strength.  Leadership and direction won't come from "everyone gets a vote, and we do what the majority wants".

In my experience, leaders aren't voted in, they step up to the plate.  Of course there are exceptions, and my experience is rather limited and one-sided.  But even for something like the President of the USA - the tens of millions of voters don't vote the President into office.  The 500-some seat Electoral College does.

Your community is your strength.  Give them something to get excited about and watch them crawl out of the woodwork, eager as they can be to help.

Thanks!

Joseph Cheek

[pwgsc1]

Hey Folks,

I've been reading a whole lot of stuff and frankly my brain is starting to get a little muddled with all the ideas floating around.

I'm choosing to listen to jeff, RequestedDeletion, etc, the people who have gotten us to this point because I appreciate their hard work and dedication. You dance with the one who brung one.  

I'm thinking there has to be a better way to identify things that have to be done and people to do them.  What's the chances of the key players posting a page with an itemized list of "thing to be done", they could be one offs or regular duties and maybe a short description of the skills required to do said work? People can start signing up to do them, everyone will be clear on what has to be done, who's doing it, where extra work is required and we are moving forward. The list and players will be ever evolving but it will always be clear who's doing what and where the gaps are.  

I know I'm asking someone else to do this and it will be one of the key folks BUT I thing people (including me)  will be more likely to sign up and contribute if they have a list in they can pick from.

Thanks,

Craig

[RonM]

I'm thinking there has to be a better way to identify things that have to be done and people to do them. What's the chances of the key players posting a page with an itemized list of "thing to be done", they could be one offs or regular duties and maybe a short description of the skills required to do said work? People can start signing up to do them, everyone will be clear on what has to be done, who's doing it, where extra work is required and we are moving forward. The list and players will be ever evolving but it will always be clear who's doing what and where the gaps are.

Good idea, Craig. I started such a list by copying the package maintenance list. If everyone wants to work this way, its available here:
http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php/Site%20Work%20List

A cpl comments: Some items are one-offs, some are more open-ended. We're all volunteers, helping out with something now is not the same as promising to maintain it for the next ten years, unless you think it's worthwhile and _want_ to do it.

A cpl items have volunteers already (earlier in this forum). No doubt they're interested in having help - you should probably talk talk to them.

Please feel free to add items to the work list if you want to do them.[/quote]

[el_dir]

Hello:

This is my first post. I have cast a couple of votes, but usually do not get to involved in the discussion simply because most people do not have the ability to present a concise directed statement/arguement.

However....

My take on things are as follows:
-create a flow chart (basic programming and
 development technique) to which registered users can
 apply to be a part of the (community) team that
 developes/debugs/contributes modules, ideas, fixes,
 docs or How-To's.
-require that all registered users contribute in one
 way or another (all members should be required to
 vote on critical issues and account dropped if
 voting does not happen); at least everyone will be
 able to say they spoke up with yes/no/undecided
-all registered users should be required to aid
 financially to the production/distribution to which
 any of the following my apply: cash in small monthly
 portions, blank media (or better) burned stack of
 cd's with the latest distro on them, programming or
 beta testing of new modules/add-ons etc. etc.

I am sure that just about everyone here could add to the suggestion list.

Unfortunately...there are those who take take take and then demand demand demand and offer nothing in return, I have read some of the forum posts but usually stop very shortly after starting considering the usual attitude or tone of the post threads.

I further offer the following if accepted:
- proof-reading of the How-to and docs (4 to 6
  hours week - more or less as time permits)
- a monthly contribution of $15 US/month paid
  quarterly (you should recieve a money order
  shortly after this post goes public).
- 25 copies of the distro on cd in paper sleeves
  every quarter (hopefully scheduled with a new
  release).
- 25 copies of the contribs section of ftp server
  every quarter.

This is as I consider a reasonable contrib (that is the name of the site is it not "contribs.org") to the approximate value of

 1) 50 cd = $39
 2) 4 to 6 hours of labor @85/hr = ($340 to $510) cdn
 3) documentation and how-to that are easier to read
    and understand
 4) less cost of distribution to the contribs
    team/community
 5) reduced time required by the contribs team
    for creation of shipable media

total value of my contribution = nearly invaluable  

[pwgsc1]

Hey Ron,

I like it!  The format is great, I especially like the LOG section so at a glance you know if there is any action happening in that section.

I see what you've got done as a format for the sub-sections of the global master listing of things to be done. Is that your take on it?

Great,

Craig

[Kobus]

Hi there

I have just been a bit busy of late and now I come back and hear the very sad news.

Well here is my 2 pennies worth of comments.

To all the sado's out there that can not, dont want or are just plain to lazy to do anything. Grow up. This is a service very well maintained. Sometimes you dont get the answer, but hey its free and THANK YOU to all the very good people out there that has helped me in the past and will in the future. IF we keep this going.

Now I have to say that I did not previously volunteer as I did not think I had the right skills but I am willing to moderate, some admin, some general other help if you still want some.

I can possibly help in a few others but can not think of any at the mo so if you want send me a small email and I can try.

Regards Kobus

[Anonymous]

I see what you've got done as a format for the sub-sections of the global master listing of things to be done. Is that your take on it?

Thanks, Craig. Yes, but it's just intended as a beginning. Please feel free to start on something you're  interested in, make suggestions here, etc.

RonM[/quote]

[wellsi]

For people who want to help a little some more small tasks are being added to the following page:

http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php/Site%20Work%20List

Any help is appreciated.

An example small task, which is suitable for anyone, and that would help begineer's enormously is 'How to install an RPM'.

rpm -uvh *.rpm is one answer, but that presumes that the user has found the command line and that the rpm is on or visible from the server. The user may not have created any additional users or ibays, so only primary would be available...

[Anonymous]

I find it very interesting that Jeff says it is now up to the "community" to take control and get involved after all the complaining, but the huge workload can't be just dumped on people or it will scare them off (See an earlier post from byRequestedDeletion in response to an offer to help - he basically tried to dump everything on the first person to offer help - STUPID!, STUPID!!, STUPID!!!)

Some months ago now I got involved in tring to set up a community structure but hit a brick wall - that brick wall was Jeff.   Now Jeff and the team have done a fantastic job and spent a lot of time and energy in getting contribs to where it is, but Jeff has made it perfectly clear that HE OWNS IT, and has total control over contribs.  And that is fair enough, BUT how can the community feel it is home when they don't have any real say about anything?

That is the brick wall and the challenge

I asked Jeff months ago to run a Poll to see if the community members were interested in becoming organised, along the lines of Debian, and even set up a draft consititution.  It needed to be a system poll not just a user iniated one, but the Poll never happened and I gave it up as banging my head againg the brick wall!

That was Jeff's choice but it became apparent, eventually, to me that since Jeff owns the hardware, the forums and has invested much time and effort, the community had little real say in it and even less control over it, and why should they?

So what we have in effect a BENEVELENT dictatorship, but a dictatorship all the same.  Now that is NOT NECESSARILY a problem if it is made clear this is how things are to be.  Perhaps we should change the somewhat perjorative word dictatorship to SPONSOR.

So...

With the SPONSOR at the head and looking after contribs web site, (hardware and infrastructure) what is needed (IMHO) is a more formalised structure with some delegated authority for SME Development and some delegated access to update some parts of contribs.

Now a structure could be defined by Jeff himself - but it needs to be defined!  OR   we could have something along the lines of the draft constitution http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php/Constitution with Jeff as the final arbitor on anything to do with Contribs.org and also perhaps a stalemate breaker on technical decisions (as I have outlined in the draft consitiution).

It all needs to be discussed but without something to indicate the interest level (like a Poll) at the start it is impossible to gauge the level of interest.  In the end Jeff has the final say.

Key Points (as I see them)

- A formal structure IS necessary. (IMHO)
- transparency of group structure, membership, processes and rules (constitution)
- transparency of what the groups are doing and what progress is being made on issues. (to-do lists and work-flow)
- transparency of the roadmap and who is making the decisions of where SME is going.
- Administration - keeping everything on track, chasing up, announcing etc (now there a job and a half!!)

I know all this sounds like an administrative nightmare (it isn't really), but I see this as a key requirement to get buy-in from those on the edges of the community.  No one expects it to just happen overnight but it, or something like it, needs to happen and in reality the next move is Jeff Coleman's.


Cheers
Peter

[Anonymous]

Dearest all

Something I've always wished for, but never gotten around to, developer/programmer...  Which unfortunately I'm not, therefore limits my contribution.  I have a total of two successful installations of SME, which has been hassle-free even maintenance-wise.  One at home, the other at the office.

I agree we need to take some sort of action, any action in order to save our beloved SME.  It's true that SME is really in trouble..  One indicator is that the PHP shipped with is still the 'venerable' 4.1.2, where the current version is somewhere at 4.3.7 (I wanted to learn PHP, that's why).

Rather than exploring/re-inventing the wheel, we could try the model of tested and proven way of doing things.  I agree with the suggestion that we appoint a CEO/President/Big Dog to take the lead with 5 year term in office. Let's look at how other distros or even other open-source OSes/projects handle things.

But before we actually do this voting thing, since contribs.org team seems to be on the verge of collapse in their epic/heroic efforts to support SME, I suggest we quickly form a protem committee, NOT to take over their duties, but to coordinate the transition period to the new management.  I mean, maybe coordinate these discussions/various suggestions/organize the elections/whatever.  These people does not have to be developers/programmers/super heroes...  just ordinary citizens who can organize..  just that.  Maybe a group of 7, or 8 or at most 10.

But I don't agree with giving only those who contributed to be able to vote.  There's some much flaw in that requirement.  One of them is that, my country does not support PayPal.  

On the other hand, I agree that we can sell subscriptions to contribs with updates or something for revenue (think FreeBSD), merchandises in the future.  We can start on a small scale.  Moreover, we already have a target market, the SME..  Back at my parents' house, their neighbour is a retired GM of a uber-large major industrial company in my country.  He once told me that big economic super-power countries are not driven by large corporations, but small companies of sub 50 employees.  I believe him.

Darn, I can't think of anything more to say, only that I believe we have to move fast on this.  It's a 'Cat eats Dog world out there nowadays'

Sincere regards and thanks

DK

-ps  No offense intended to anyone, just my plain ol' 2 cents before the 75% discount!

[andymcp]

Good thread - great to see the enthusiasm behind keeping this moving. I've read through the suggestions by wally (great post btw) for tasks/roles and will return after some peaceful deliberation to step up to the plate and assist where I can.

[boringgit]

Hiya,

Am interested in volunteering for the Install an RPM doc.

2 questions...

1 - To put myself forward for that I just edit your page? Put my initials and name at the top and then mark myself down for the task? Seems a bit forward

2 - Piccies The command line can be an intimidating thing. "type rpm -ivh package.rpm" is fine, but a picture paints a thousand words and all that guff. A few screenshots of a terminal would be nice.

What is the policy there? Links, inline images etc. etc...

[RonM]

1) Yep - step right up and take a whack at it. Sign up just so everyone know someone is working on it.

2) It's difficult but possible to include images in the wiki. If you want several images it's probably easier to make a standard web page w/images folder. We can stick it somewhere if you want, and embed it in a wiki page for navigation

RonM