Koozali.org: home of the SME Server

The State of the Distro

Souley

The State of the Distro
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2004, 12:19:19 PM »
Hi,
According to me we have to made big changes.
I think we must have a council with few members elected by users.
This council will decide the orientation of the SME project

What do you think about that ?

Regards
Souley

Offline Peter

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Status of
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2004, 04:51:48 PM »
When e-smith was “e-Smith” it was never FREE you could down load free working system that had NO support and indeed was not supported in the main by the e-smith team.

Free! Nothing is Free! Those who want to use it for free should be willing to use the Beta version with a small subscription for any updates.

The free version in many ways was its beta testing ground and the reward for providing a free version was the feed back from many developers around the world.

It was developed by a core team who DID receive a salary which I assume came from the people and there was plenty customers that just wanted to pay for support and do not want the hassle of all the add ons, howto’s etc.

We are still out here and still willing to pay for what after all is a great program for what it was designed for the small to medium user with no IT support. If we can get back to this tried and tested formula all will be well.


People who think developers, programmes and support staff are just going to magically sort out everybody’s problems your living in Lar Lar Land as is expecting development on the next version. Development needs direction support and financial reward after all e-smith is a sophisticated piece of software and is as good as it is because it had motivated PAID development staff with a team leader to give it direction.

Nothing will work without leadership direction and FINANCIAL reward.!

Offline Peter

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« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2004, 04:53:50 PM »
When e-smith was “e-Smith” it was never FREE you could down load free working system that had NO support and indeed was not supported in the main by the e-smith team.

Free! Nothing is Free! Those who want to use it for free should be willing to use the Beta version with a small subscription for any updates.

The free version in many ways was its beta testing ground and the reward for providing a free version was the feed back from many developers around the world.

It was developed by a core team who DID receive a salary which I assume came from the people and there was plenty customers that just wanted to pay for support and do not want the hassle of all the add ons, howto’s etc.

We are still out here and still willing to pay for what after all is a great program for what it was designed for the small to medium user with no IT support. If we can get back to this tried and tested formula all will be well.


People who think developers, programmes and support staff are just going to magically sort out everybody’s problems your living in Lar Lar Land as is expecting development on the next version. Development needs direction support and financial reward after all e-smith is a sophisticated piece of software and is as good as it is because it had motivated PAID development staff with a team leader to give it direction.

Nothing will work without leadership direction and FINANCIAL reward.!

Offline del

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The State of the Distro
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2004, 06:13:58 PM »
Hi Peter,
What do you term as updates? I have used e-smith/sme on my home network since getting 4.1.12 off a UK Linux magazine CD (it didn't actually work but the problem was solved by the e-smith forum)and I can't remember having to pay for any security updates/patches - either as e-smith or Mitel, even MS updates for security are available without charge. So what updates are you suggesting we pay for? Addons? Maybe, but that is up to the individual who writes them, Steve Noble at dungog.net charges for his excellent addons where as Darrell May's equally excellent addons are available as free downloads. My point is that just one insecure/hacked server, whether it be a free download or a paid for version is bad news for everyone.
Regards,
Del :-o
If at first you don't succeed, then sky-diving is not for you!
"Life is like a coin. You can spend it anyway you wish, but you can only spend it once." --Author Unknown

SSBN

The State of the Distro
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2004, 08:21:01 PM »
I think the first step should be to find out who wants to lead the project. Then only people who have given money or time to the project can vote. A donation of $5 via paypal gives you the right to vote. Jeff if you are so willing can initiate the process.
Just an idea from someone who has contributed money to the project.

SSBN

The State of the Distro
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2004, 09:02:53 PM »
To expand on my last post.

When contribs first took over e-smith they assembled a team that released 6.0.1. I would suggest reassembling that team and continue to release versions of SME. But charge money for them. The existing distribution 6.01 can go the course the community takes it. Then sell this product to companies like MKC Networks who currently build there VoIP application on SME5.6. Sell it to people like me and any one ells who wants to spend less the 1000 on server software.(windows 200 server cost)
 As a side you can buy 5.6 at http://pub.supercom.ca/web/scomml.nsf/(WebPrint)/20040109085522HUIS-5V2MUM?OpenDocument The MKC/Mitel ICP (Integrated Communications Platform) is SME 5.6 with VoIP Software installed on it.

Muzo

The State of the Distro
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2004, 09:31:59 PM »
Before selling anything, we must have a team, leaders, and a roadmap.

- A team how controls who made what (it's stupid when 2 peoples made same things, it's a waste of time)
- Leaders, to whom MKC may talk and discus about sellings
- Roadmap : what we do? what evolution is important?
- Community : peoples who discuss and act!

Anonymous

I would like to help.
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2004, 11:35:34 PM »
Hello Everyone,
I would like to offer my help if you are still asking. Please be advised that this will be my first involvement in an open-source project. However  I am not new to SME server. I have been using it for many years now and I don't want to see it die.

My skills are in the IT project management. Unfortunately I am not a programmer, at least not a C++ programmer, and I need to travel extensively for work but I tend to keep myself well connected to the internet.

I don't know if you require a CV from me for something like this and I would gladly post it if required.

Please see below a short bullet point list of what I am experienced and qualified to do.

Certifications
- Citrix Certification
- CCNA
- MCSE

Skills
- I understand routing, networking, NT4 Domains and security, Active Directory,Lotus Notes,  traffic shaping, firewalls,VPN, disaster recovery and thin client architecture.
- I have been using Linux since 1997 for home and for work.
- I am very experienced with, not only SME Server but, many flavours of Linux.
- My router of choice is RedHat. (Only, because I know RedHat too well.)

Languages Spoken
- English (Perfect)
- Spanish (Native Language)
- French (Fluent)

Experience
- 2002 to present Date: Chief Infrastructure designer for my company's European Service Centre. Based in London.
- 1999 to 2002:  Southern European IT Systems Manager. Based in Paris.
   - I was responsible for 9 sites in 5 different countries.
- 1997 to 1998: Network Manager for UK operations. Based in Tamworth, Staffordshire.
   - I was responsible for 3 sites.

I don't want to list anything previous to these years because I don't find it relevant. Suffice to say that I have been working in IT for more than 10 years with Unix, Linux, LanMan, AS-400. I even supported for a while RISC-OS on Acorns.:)

Thank you very much for your attention,
Andrew

guest22

The State of the Distro
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2004, 12:27:43 AM »
Quote from: "SSBN"
As a side you can buy 5.6 at http://pub.super!!!.XXXXXXX The MKC/Mitel ICP (Integrated Communications Platform) is SME 5.6 with VoIP Software installed on it.


What has this got to do with this current thread and discussion?

Offline Peter

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State of the distro
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2004, 12:28:12 AM »
Hi Del.

I ask you all to think very carefully about this wonderful software IT IS IN GRAVE DANGER and can not continue as is just meandering from one crisis to the next with no direction. The only way it can survive, develop and prosper is if is run on a commercial footing with paid dedicated staff and PAYING customers whilst maintaining the free unsupported version as a working test bed.


 Free version & Add-on’s. It was the forum that in the main found and offered ways around bugs, developed add-on’s etc. E-smith developers never advocated nor promoted the add-on’s. In fact they constantly warned add-ons may brake your system or be a security risk.  In the mean time the PAID core developers were getting on with error trapping, Bug fixes, Development of the next release with all it’s complications but firstly for the paying customer. It was never developed as a hobby but a commercial enterprise!

It was the very fact that the development team were able to make a living from paying customers which give them the incentive to continue and develop this wonderful server software. We were also able to get a free UNSUPORTED version. We do not now have this core of developers to whom we can turn without them e-smith can not continue!


The time has come for strong leadership. No!  You will not please everybody if fact you probably will alienate some members of this forum however ACTION is now required this wonderful software is in grave danger! Democracy is all very well but even democracy has its leaders. Now is the time for leadership. Geoff  Hsing and others Now is the time to take the lead then tell everybody what you intend to do, not ask them, trying to take votes on this and that, them and us simply will not work. This software must now be put on a proper commercial basis, that means a paid staff of core developers and support staff who will provide the quality service that e-smith gave to its paying customers.  Just like e-smith did company’s that want to offer supported versions to their customers should pay a retainer on a yearly base to enable them to get the same first class help and support direct from the developers.

The reasonable price for the commercial version of this software is $400 this should include unlimited e-mail support, one years updates with security notification and fixes and a one years Anti virus software and updates. Companies that want to have selling rights within a territorial region and become resellers should pay a membership fee $500 then receive a discount of $100

The Free version should be, as it was with e-smith FREE without any support other than what you all ready have on this and other forums which co-incidentally would be made available on the back of the PAYING customers. Nothing is for FREE.

Offline wellsi

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Re: The State of the Distro
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2004, 02:33:26 PM »
Quote from: "jcoleman"

The first and easiest task required is to have someone go through all of the posts and lists and start adding more howto and file links into the weblink database.  That database is falling seriously behind the times.

Cheers,

-jeff


What would really help is (for the community) to come up with a method for informing the community of a new HowTo or contrib.

For instance

Email DevInfo for feedback during development/alpha release.
Add to Web-Links once appears stable
(The information magically appears in the HowTo classification after a while)
Post to Experienced forum.

Or come up with a different list.

Regarding the state of the WebLinks it is worth considering the that there is also the HowTo classification which now shows what HowTos are untested on 6.0

The next step on that is to move the feedback to the forums. Any help with that will be very welcome by the docteam.

Ian
............

simnux

Money...
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2004, 03:31:27 PM »
Peter

I think if you query the e-smith/Mitel folks you'll find that your assertions regarding the e-smith/SME revenue stream are wishful thinking.

When Joe Morrison started e-smith, it was the result of work he'd been doing in his business. That work being the use of templates and a database to configure Red Hat systems. Sometime around 1999/2000 Joe and Kim managed to get venture capital investment, and further down the road negotiated the sale to Mitel.

Yes, e-smith/Mitel staff was paid. However, I can assure you few if any of them were paid from the revenues generated by sales of support for the product. In fact, I'd be surprised to learn that "sales" covered the cost of office supplies, perhaps utilities at best.

Joe et al worked for years to find the magic formula that would generate a consistent, sufficient revenue stream. The fact that Mitel bought e-smith and subsequently withdrew from supporting the SME community should tell you just how unsuccessful that effort turned out to be.

Chasing the dream of creating revenue with SME is at best a high risk, low probability adventure. If this community and the current leadership (or at least the de facto leadership) is focused on money, then I can predict with incredible certainty that SME Server will gasp its last breath and die. Very soon.

Only love of this distro will save it. Nice though it may be, it is stagnant and behind the times and getting less competitive by the hour. Frankly, if I had to pay for it, I wouldn't. There are better options to be had if you are going to have to unload your cash.

Only a developer in love with the project will have the persistence to drive it forward. Only an administrator in love with the project will have the perserverance to glue all the pieces together. Only a leader in love with the project will have the passion to inspire others to follow their lead.

Anyone looking to make a buck will soon be frustrated and fall away. This community is littered with the bones of these people.

Both e-smith and Mitel set a very rigid vision for the project. It was never an open project, and the sickness in this community is a carry over from its history. People were in fact encouraged to make contribs, but not for reasons you might think. It was partially because it might be free development for the project, but it was mainly because if it did not fit the e-smith/Mitel vision they weren't going to expend energy on it, but you were free to pursue it if need be. Check out just how few contribs ever made it into the core product, or even as official addons.

Good or bad? Who is to say?

Frankly, any successful project is at the beginning driven almost religiously by one or perhaps a few people with the vision and the passion. SME Server is not so large as to be beyond that stage. It needs a champion and an evangelist. Until such a believer shows up, I doubt there will be a savior for SME Server.

For whatever it's worth.

Scott

SSBN

The State of the Distro
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2004, 06:30:07 PM »
RequestedDeletion sorry for my unnecessary post. I was just tying to get across there is a market for SME. In retrospect it was not required.

But I do stand by my point that the group that released 6.0.1 did one hell of a job and are still the best people for the job. That is if they want it. That leads to my other point that is also valid. Who wants to lead the project and will the community allow it. Their was never more dissent then when the contribs people took it upon themselves to release a new version. But it in my opinion was the only way things will move along.
[/quote]

Offline Peter

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State of the distro
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2004, 09:10:00 PM »
Hi Scott

I take your point re e-smith/Mitel revenue stream. I under stand this project is not about money and is not a get rich fast product.

The point I am trying to make is we are leaderless with no direction, development and very little progress.

Even if enough revenue was generated to pay a devoted team lead that would have the drive and motivation to get some direction back into this project to enable it to move forwarded it would help. I have no idea how much revenue E-smith/Mitel generated but it did generate some! At the moment the burden is on a few and it is plane to see they are getting fed up to the back teeth with it all. Just how long are we prepared for Geoff to have to foot the bill and take the abuse before we act?

I could not agree more with you. It will take a dedicated lover of this software with the necessary skills to lead this project and if they are willing to do it for free! That’s great.

So if there is one or more out there, Step up now your skills are urgently needed but if, as I suspect, most people spend enough of their time trying to keep themselves afloat and nobody is willing to take the lead, then we have no alternative but employ somebody maybe under the control of say Geoff and an appointed team of volunteers.

I, and I guess other’s, would be more than happy to be a re-seller and pay a re-seller’s retainer this would generate an ongoing revenue stream, or, I could just make a one off donation of a few $$ to ease my cognisance. Without a reliable renewable revenue flow who is going to take on the costs in hardware and man hours not only for the short term but longer term development.

Yes it may differ from the dream of so called FREE Software. Welcome to the real world. When it comes down to it, not much is being asked from those like me who make a profit from the product but do not have the necessary skills to contribute.

Re-sellers need to feel they are getting something extra for their money or they will only make one donation and not bother again. This is why they need direct support from the development team or a least have somewhere to turn other than ask a question and hope for an answer on a forum as good as it is!  This is real live server software we are dealing with, users can’t wait for months for somebody, nobody to come up with a fix or fill a security hole it’s not like having a server at home with no consequences. We who operate in the real world do have consequences, responsibilities and liabilities and are willing to pay for our Support!

Without a Leader paid or unpaid nothing will be achieved.
Without development nothing will be achieved
Without Support Nothing will be achieved

Are you prepared to install this software as a business venture knowing full well there is no adequate support or development the only prospect of a fix is to ask and hope?

COME ON Guys! This product is to good to put it on the same level as a Web calendar project by a collage student with no long term involvement. The web is full of projects supported by volunteers going absolutely knower.

RonM

The State of the Distro
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2004, 10:19:15 PM »
Thanks, Scott - I was thinking up something like this, but you said it better. Only love of this project will move it forward. It was never an open project, and the sickness in this community is a carry over from its history. The dream of creating revenue from SME (at least directly) is a high risk, low probability adventure.

Where we differ, perhaps, is in outlook.

It may be difficult to make money with SME, but that doesn't change whether or not we need it. It isn't contribs.org that needs the money, it's the community that needs the money, if we want the distro to survive. IMO, if we try to move the project again at this point, we might as well shoot it and get it over with. We've had too much attrition already.

While I appreciate the idea of a leader, a central point to rally around, set priorities, etc., we don't need a savior, we've had too many already. I think that's just a continuation of the 'sickness': "Build an active and attractive project and distro for me, so I can use it without effort or worry about the future. By the way, I need SME to support file transfer to flash memory cards over USB 2.0, with format conversion to FAT32. Thanks." That's half the 'sickness' in a nutshell: it was never an open project, we were peripheral to it, it didn't matter, really, whether we "gave anything back" or not, so we got used to getting SME for free, like "free beer". We felt entitled to regular updates, and became aggravated if they were too long in coming. A few champions regularly pitched in (and were sometimes castigated for trespass), but the majority of us (me, too) just let it happen. I think we're starting to come out of the coma now, but you can still see the symptoms everywhere. We're still saying "Somebody must do something" instead of "I'm going to do X". Even when we volunteer to help, we want someone to tell us what to do, and get angry if no one does.

The other half (of the 'sickness') is that most of us (me, too), whatever we may desire, do not have the skills to contribute to the core distro in any meaningful way, and we let it stop us from contributing at all. A few months back, a news item was posted that said approx 7% of the hits on contribs.org were from Linux OS's. Most of the rest were no doubt from windows boxes, and this probably reflects the community well: 90% windows users. This is a fundamental issue with the distro, after all. SME is not so wonderful to someone who could build a server from source, with all the functionality desired, in a long Saturday afternoon. We love it, frankly, because it lets us put Linux to good use without having to do the hard work to understand all the details. We learn by doing.

So let's quit calling it 'sickness', and call it 'ignorance' instead. We're not used to open-source projects, and tend to think they exist in order to give us free software. The commercial element confuses our goals, and dilutes our efforts. We don't have the skills for all the hard work that has been/needs to be done. We need money to survive, but don't seem to have any good way to come up with it. What's a mother to do?

Whatever she can, of course! The same news item said contribs.org gets 1.8 million hits a month from 48k visitors. Without getting hung up on the accuracy of those numbers, that's a lot of interest in a supposedly stagnant and uncompetitive distro, more than enough to do what needs to be done. Each of us do our piece, and we just have to hope that it adds up to be enough. Don't kid yourself that your input is useless. We are the saviors of SME, the champions and evangelists, the admins and developers and leaders. Look around. Who else is there but each other?

This project is not stagnant: several grand folks have stepped up to help just in the last few days - just for the love of it. Several more have been working all along; in the forums, in bug tracker, on security - just for the love of it. The contribs team has sweated bullets to create and repair this site - just for the love of it. A number of folks have given money - just for the love of it. We (all of us) are still here. We just need to step it up a notch.