Topic: Trials finished results summary

[alefattorini]

For example, neth64 has a excellent user interface and it works in much more of a way that I want. The package manager is particularly good and I think SME8 should have one. I think package managers are one of the bigger reasons that people come to Linux for both server and desktop, because it does-away with all that horrible command line stuff. It is the sole reason I went over to Linux on the desktop five years ago.

However, SME8 wins on documentation. I know Neth is young so I cannot expect it to have the vast library that SME does, however it has proved to be a sticking point for me. After one hour, I still cannot work out how to add fetchmail to Neth as there is no documentation anywhere and not the merest hint of how to do so. It's a small issue I know, but one that is important to me and my set-up.
<snip>

So Neth has all I want, but will be some years before it is documented enough for "ordinary users".

Hi Graham,
i'm glad that you like nethserver package manager and user interface, we worked very hard on them!
Sorry for lack of documentation, there is a lot of tecnhical stuff here dev.nethesis.it but you're right, there is not much documentation for "ordinary users".
We're working on it, if you want help you're welcome

Ciao,
Alessio

[alefattorini]

indeed Europeans are really competitors in free software

eehehe Stephen, told by a French ;-D

Now the bet is to attract a community with this distribution, because you can have the best product if nobody use it, it is hard to maintain and develop it...it looks like zentyal at beginning, it took months before that people know it, use it , trust it....and so long.
But it is a good adventure...i look...

Thanks for your trust, the adventure is started

[filippoc]

nethserver=php

NethServer is mostly written in perl, retaining most of the brilliant concepts behind e-smith.
PHP is used only for the server-manager interface, that is a frontend to the db and events.
NethServer is highly modular, the server-amaner interface could be substitued by the current old server-manager written in perl.

[Stefano]

hi Filippo

could you please give us a link to the source packages? are they (all) under GPL?

TIA

[filippoc]

It seemed though, that Neth had their own strong mindset about how the project would advance & be implemented, whereas the contribs org community & current & past developers saw it a bit differently. I guess one of the sticking points was the use of php based code vs perl based code.
So this in part, inspired the community to reform (or perhaps improve their formation & motivation), thus spawning the koozali name & entity etc.
Here we are today, with sme9 nearly ready to go.
As I see it, perhaps if Neth had been more open to ideas or input from the community, & more proactive/interactive about it, then maybe the community may have joined up with them as corporate sponsors, but that did not happen. The community has decided to go it alone with developing sme9 based on CentOS 6, & modelled on/copied from the existing sme8 code.

We (nethesis) were, still are and always be open to ideas or input from the community. Openness is one of the strongest point in our job.
Last year we asked input from the community while in early alpha stages, when community input could have major influence on the development.
You could re-read the whole thread on the devinfo mailing list archives. I'm just highlighting the following mail that I used to explain why we felt that a fork was the best thing to do:
http://lists.contribs.org/pipermail/devinfo/2013-January/011222.html

You could watch the completely open development process of NethServer on dev.nethesis.it or you could see how we discuss thing on our mailing list.

I wrote this post because I feel sad to read false statements about the people who work on NethServer.
I never imagined that our announce would have moved such feelings. I'm still in the position I expressed to John: we still would like to merge with smeserver.

[filippoc]

could you please give us a link to the source packages? are they (all) under GPL?

https://dev.nethesis.it/projects/nethserver
There is much more than sources.
It's all GPL licensed.

[janet]

filippoc

I wrote this post because I feel sad to read false statements about the people who work on NethServer.
I never imagined that our announce would have moved such feelings. I'm still in the position I expressed to John: we still would like to merge with smeserver.

I do not believe I made a false statement.
I read of no attempt by Nethserver staff to seriously consider & implement the non php server manager. Charlie spoke of using Mojolicious to rewrite it, where is your active involvement in that ?

IIRC there were other areas/issues that were not adequately answered.

I do not personally see a merger as a bad thing, as community & corporate could assist each other, much as the community & e-smith/Mitel did.
Neth in effect set the position of the goalposts according to their corporate requirements & design goals, & there was not a lot of room for community & external developers to give serious input that would change the basic Neth design.
Neth in effect said, here it is, this is how we are doing it, who wants to join in.

I see very little or no response to design suggestions & comments made by community/external developers etc.

Perhaps you do not see that as you have been so close to the project.

[filippoc]

I'm sorry if I used "strong words". Please accept my apologies.
I think that nobody verified our openness, nobody asked for collaboration (apart saying "stop using php").
I think we have answered all question, but, if we didn't, just ask again.

We have a short list of goals here:
http://nethserver.nethesis.it/index.php?id=development_features_nethserver-sme-server

We are open to discuss every feature, see our mailing list for examples.

We even tried to involve devinfo and followed advises received, e.g.:
http://lists.contribs.org/pipermail/devinfo/2013-May/011691.html

We can be reached through our mailing list, on #nethserver IRC channel, phone, etc.

[NoTo]

Can I apologise of my thread has raised 'issues' and re-opened old wounds? It was never the intention...

It is plain from the outside that the two projects need proverbially grabbing by the scruff of the neck and having their heads firmly banged together.

SME is awesome, but much more 'niche market' than NethServer, that wants to head more 'mass market'. Whether you agree or not, i don't really care, but from the comments I've read on this and dozens of other threads, it's a fact (whether you like it and know it or not).

A niche is a FANTASTIC place to be, if you understand your niche. Similarly, the mass market is a FANTASTIC place to be if you understand the masses.

Provided SME plays to it's strengths, it will survive, and similarly NethServer. But together? No way, forget it, it just won't work.

SME should concentrate on filling the needs of it's userbase, and so should NethServer. Both userbases WILL be and ARE different (again, whether you like it or not), so for christ's sake cease the debate and get on with it.

As history has unequivocally demonstrated, a niche cannot survive in the mass market, and similarly the mass market will not survive in a niche. The niche will always want something very specific, the masses the latest and greatest shiny things. But concentrate on what you do and fill the needs of your users, and both will survive. Just not together.

[janet]

filippoc

I think we have answered all question, but, if we didn't, just ask again.

Just answering questions & providing justification is not really sufficient, you are just saying "Here is why we did it".
That is certainly not the same thing as responding to comments & criticisms & making actual changes.

I cannot directly speak for others, but it does seem to me that Neth made many "big" changes, too many for existing users & developers to feel comfortable with.
Perhaps a slower rate of change, & more interaction with existing developers & users before making changes, was required.

But then you tried that a long time ago, & lack of response to your design goals & preferences are what caused you to decide to go it alone, & create Neth server.
If you want (or wanted) more support from the community, then I think you had to (or still have to) engage the community & accept their design input, you cannot expect people to go along with the Neth way of doing things, if it does not really suit or match or come close to, how they do things now. Change is great, but it has to be tempered & dished out in small doses to be palatable.

I guess that's why the community decided to create sme9, it is essentially the same thing as sme8, just using CentOS6, so no big design changes & no big design surprises. Simply said, no changes at all really.

I think I said it earlier, ultimately it's a choice for end users to go with Neth, or sme/Koozali or something else.

How do you get the community to be more involved with Neth & to merge with you.
I believe it was said in one of the mail list links you provided, revert many of your changes back to the old sme server way of doing things.
Carry on the tradition (which has good technical reasons for being followed), & implement changes slowly & gradually.

Is Neth prepared to revert many of the changes they have made & liaise much more agreeably with the community users & developers ?

[filippoc]

Is Neth prepared to revert many of the changes they have made & liaise much more agreeably with the community users & developers ?

Yes.

[janet]

NoTo

I do not think there is fighting or such like going on here, it's just words & we are having a friendly discussion.

I would like to point out, how many niche OS's are surviving after 14 years, sme is still here in essentially the same flavour it was when it was first released, greatly improved of course.
The only thing holding back greater change & improvement is developer time, (& funding).

If "free" developers & corporate developers (sponsored), willingly got together for a think tank session, & held on to a common goal set, then much could happen to sme server in a relatively short time span. Imagine if the Neth developers had just given one tenth of their time to improving the current sme8/9 server, how good would it be ?

[janet]

filippoc

Yes.

Well then, I think that's something you should be putting to the new Koozali board, but as well or more specifically putting to the current developers, on devinfo mailing list.

[stephdl]

You could re-read the whole thread on the devinfo mailing list archives. I'm just highlighting the following mail that I used to explain why we felt that a fork was the best thing to do:
http://lists.contribs.org/pipermail/devinfo/2013-January/011222.html

I remember , in french we say : un pavé dans la mare (a big rock in the water)

You could watch the completely open development process of NethServer on dev.nethesis.it or you could see how we discuss thing on our mailing list.
I wrote this post because I feel sad to read false statements about the people who work on NethServer.
I never imagined that our announce would have moved such feelings. I'm still in the position I expressed to John: we still would like to merge with smeserver.

I have never talked or heard fail statement on people who work on nethserver, even if i think that sharing the community is not a good idea...we are not legion.
If you go out of contribs and you ask to people if they know sme-server, often the answer is NO, therefore nethserver...i do not know.
But your message of december 2012 was an electroshock for the community, a good electroshock as we were sleeping...please look

-sme9 is on the road.
-contribs are most in smecontribs, workable, with some new works.
-around 1 000 000 characters more in the documentation (new contribs, New HowTo, new manuals, new French Translation....)
-new developers.
-a new hope

no i want to say thank you Nethserver, but for all members of smeserver community, please continue to work, to contribute, this is the power of SME and our future

filippoc you should talk to john...even if i'm a board member, i thing that start a conversation with the chairman is often a good way....sorry French thought !