Topic: Trials finished results summary

[NoTo]

Our trials of the next IT infrastructure are now 99 percent complete, with the final two candidates being chosen over the next few days. Is it of passing interest to know the results and what informed the decisions?

If so I'll post a summary - it's all very informal, no 300-page corporate reports 

[Jáder]

I'm not sure if I lost a previous message about infra...anyways
I'd love to read about any tests you've done and your conclusions!

TIA

Jáder

[NoTo]

This is just a summary and doesn't enter into specifics about each decision made, and is not intended to offer criticism about any product rejected. No assumptions should be made about testing procedures, which were extensive and time-consuming. I left the corporate world fifteen years ago because I hate report writing so much This is just a round-up of what we discussed on our private forum (which ran to fifteen pages). E&OE

The server is required for browser-based email, contacts, shared calendars, file storage and intranet-like activities with no exposure to the public internet (remote access provided via a 'hardware' VPN in the router). User base consists of 17 members of a voluntary organisation and two small business users. A decision was made to avoid 'public cloud' where possible.

1. Initial 'quicklist'

a. MS SBS (if it still exists)
b. Apple OSX server
c. SME8
d. Zentyal 3.2
e. Ubuntu Server
f. Clear OS
g. Appliance (QNAP/Synology/Zyxel/Buffalo etc)

1.1 Initial Select/Reject to look at in-depth

1a. MS SBS: Bloated, complex licencing
1b. Apple OSX Server: Lack of affordable and compelling hardware to run it on. The better hardware is ridiculously expensive.
1c. SME8: Open source so low acquisition cost (plus suitable donation), large selection of suitable hardware, seemingly well-supported and documented, slow release cycles so probably stable. Browser-based routine admin, other additions possibly complex?
1d. Zentyal 3.2: Open source and commercial versions, reasonable documentation, Ubuntu-based so possibly LTS versions? Easy GUI interface for routine admin. Other additions possibly complex?
1e. Ubuntu Server: Well-supported, LTS and commercial support available. Steeper learning curve than we really have time for.
1f. Clear OS: Easy GUI install and admin, but paid-for downloads/additions which could increase, and would make our trials potentially expensive. Reviews are less favourable than SME/Zentyal.
1g. QNAP and Synology: Appear to be the two best supported by way of add-ons and thriving communities. Very easy browser-based admin, webserver/fileshares/mySQL etc by default. Zyxel and Buffalo seem to be trailing some way behind.


2. Initial testing

2c: SME8
Initial install on all three HP PCs failed (2x P4 32-bit, 1x Core2 64bit) and the machines would not boot the first time. The community forum responded quickly with suggestions and reports of it working fine on their similar hardware. We then installed an old version (7.6) and upgraded to 8.0 and all went as expected. Further research suggests this isn't an uncommon situation on HP gear with the version of CentOS underlying SME8. Testing continued, this being considered a reasonable 'work-around' for the rare occasion the server might need rebuilding from scratch.

A stack of add-ons ("contribs") were added, following the generally-good instructions on the website. The exact commands required to install the add-ons were almost always given, making this part of the process a simple matter of 'copy and paste' in a terminal window. The general requirement to reboot after each add-on became tedious, and attempts to just skip to the next and do a reboot later caused an issue with a rolling Apache error at the next reboot. Lesson learned, we switched to the second test PC and performed the reboots after each add-on. This time no errors were observed.

Adding users, creating shares (i-bays) and user groups was simple in the browser. Fetching mail from the existing mailserver was straightforward and no mis-directed mail resulted.

The default groupware is Horde with Kronolith for calendaring. This was almost universally disliked by the users, with the user-interface being considered "generally too busy". Setting default colours for each user's calendar was also a sticking point with most. The Dimp add-on improved things slightly, but the calendar entry screen was particularly disliked by younger and older users. The interface does have a slightly "20th century" feel about it, and lacks the minimalist 'shine' of more recent interfaces such as Google Calendar, etc. Interestingly Horde offer a much more up-to-date version, and most of the users felt it would be suitable judging only by the available screenshots on the Horde website. It's not known if Horde 5 will ever be integrated into SME, but presumably that would be in SME9 at the earliest which is some years off.

The other option, Roundcube, was liked by everyone, but several sticking points quickly came to light. The calendar doesn't allow sharing beyond 'invites' and so was rejected by all users. Further, we have yet to be successful importing either a calendar or address book (we tried ical and vcard as well as CSV files) and none imported at all.

Attempts were made to install Zarafa, but these failed. The instructions at this time are more complex than we have time to learn. The situation with Sogo was similar. It's also unclear whether the non-free version will work (depending on what/where you read, the free version only covers three users.)

We tried the eGroupware contrib on SME next, as the specs appear to cover more than we need. Both the 1.4 and 1.6 versions were installed at different times via the Contrib instructions. All modules worked with the exception of the built-in mail client, which displayed a blank screen. eGroupware remains a potential groupware solution, pending further investigation of the email client issue experienced.

Initial Conclusion: SME8 in all respects was a generally easy-to-use server, thanks to the way instructions are written (no assumption of expertise), and the community being responsive to requests for help (if none can be found in the extensive archive of information). SME is short-listed but the groupware situation remains open to further investigation.


2d: Zentyal 3.2
The 32-bit installs went smoothly but resulted in a rather 'clunky' server which was mostly very slowand at times unresponsive. We abandoned it in favour of the 64-bit version on the Core2 machine, which felt responsive, though never particularly quick. Add-ons are a mouse-click in the broswer interface, and we were quickly up and running. Webmail was broken out of the box, and the forum had a bug report on how to fix it (although it was allegedly fixed in our version). The instructions assume a medium level of expertise, with no indication of the commands required to mend it. We disabled the webmail after several hours failing to fix it. Zarafa was installed with a couple of clicks, and worked straight away. In the client browser, it never felt particularly fast, though all users really liked the interface and functionality, particularly the "webapp" version. After two hours, we'd failed to find a way to import our existing calendars and address books.

We asked a question in the forum, but ten days later have seen no reply. We opted to test the commercial service and asked a reasonable pre-sales question of the Zentyal commercial arm. Ten days later, we've had no reply. Our concerns are whether this is the level of service we'd also have after handing over our €500 for commercial support.

Initial Conclusion: There's much to like about Zentyal, but concerns about what we'd do in a crisis remain. For that reason Zentyal was rejected.


2g: QNAP/Synology
For the purposes of our trials, we used a borrowed QNAP TS-112. All the QNAP offerings have a broadly similar browser-based interface and the same facilities, although multi-disk options with RAID, faster processors, more memory are available which would be more suitable if we go this route.

Installation was very easy and largely automated. We were up and running and adding user accounts within ten minutes. The browser interface is attractive, intuitive and generally 'obvious'. A web server, mySQL database, Samba sharing etc are all present. Add-on 'QPKG' packages are selectable for adding all kinds of extra options. A built-in backup facility exists that will backup to locally attached USB disks and that proved easy and reliable, backing-up files in their native format straight to the external disk. Other more complex options exist for backing up remotely.

There is a mailserver add-on, but with no fetchmail-like functionality, so this potentially exposes the QNAP relay to the internet with associated threats that we may not be expert enough to deal with. Like others, there is no compelling groupware offering.

Initial Conclusion: We liked the QNAP alot. It offers us everything SME8 does as a fileserver but with a 'prettier' UI. If a groupware package was found however, it would be less attractive from the mailserver point of view (ie the security risks of exposing the relay to the outside world).


3. Considerations, comparisons and potential selections

3.1 Security:
All remote access is via a 'hardware' VPN device. That device is now obsolete, so the decision to either replace it with a more modern device or utilise a server-based VPN has been looked at.

"Out of the box" SME8 supports PPTP and the QNAP the same protocol via their own hosted service. Beyond that is more complex and the learning curves come back into play. That said, SME8 has an OpenVPN contrib that appears straightforward.

Selection for security: Hardware VPN (or SME8 with further research)


3.2 Groupware:
Neither SME8 or QNAP offer a compelling groupware.

Gmail with Google Calendar was tested by half the users and was universally liked. However, following our previous experience where we relied on Google services that were either withdrawn at near-zero notice or folded into Google+, the unanimous decision to "not go there again" was made.

Atmail is an email and calendaring service that is available to us via our web hosting provider as part of our public internet hosting package. To date, we've never used it beyond using one mailbox as a "catchall" for collection by our own mailserver. Several extra mailboxes were created and tested by a selection of users and was liked enormously. The clean browser interface was easy to understand, attractive, and calendars were created and shared easily, with the desired option of having each users calendar entries in a different colour. This remains a viable option, although our general dislike of having our data in third-party hands remains.

Selection for groupware: Atmail on web host if we cannot find a locally-hosted alternative.


3.3 Mail server
In the event a groupware package is found (see 3.2) then a mailserver will be required. Both SME8 and QNAP have suitable mail servers, although only SME8 has a 'fetchmail' option. This is considered important as our mail is collected in a 'catchall' mail box and collected via IMAP to save us from having a publicly-visible relay and the potential security issues that presents.

Selection for mail server: SME8


3.4 Disaster recovery
Backups are different on each server, but similarly easy to use and reliable. SME8 has a restore bug, but it being addressed by the development team and we see no reason why it should be a negative point at this stage.

Assuming reliable backups exist, both options can be got back up and running fairly easily within half a working day. SME8 has the advantage that the replacement server (assuming a total hardware failure) can be pretty much any PC available to us. QNAP has the potential to take longer given the proprietory hardware. Assuming suitable hardware is still manufactured, then realistically the down-time would be 48 to 72 hours to allow for hardware acquisition and data restoration. It was generally felt that if the QNAP route were taken, then two mirrored devices would offer the best solution. The cost of the devices is such that two twin-disk QNAPs would be similar to the single server for SME8.

Selection for disaster recovery: Either would be acceptable.


3.5 All other functionality:
All other required functionality is available on both SME8 and QNAP and is similarly easy to use - webserver, fileshares, users and groups, reliable backups (pending SME8 DAR upgrade).

Selection for all other functionality: Either would be acceptable.


4. Further work

4a: SME8
Add and test OpenVPN
Investigate absent email client screen in eGroupware
Final sweep checking for web-based groupware that will run

4b: QNAP
Final sweep checking for web-based groupware that will run
Research and test device mirroring

4c: Hardware VPN
Check what's currently available


5: Final decision

??????

[guest22]

Indeed Zarafa has a bit of a steep learning curve, but there is a full RPM set as a contrib available and the fully automatic quick install script that now detects 32/64bit (See zarafa pages)

As for the free version, it supports 3 outlook clients without any license. And additional licenses for outlook clients are pretty cheap. But if you use another client like Thunderbird/Lighting or Zarafa webmail/webapp, there is no limit on the number of users.

If you want to give Zarafa another go I'm sure you will receive help here.

guest

[NoTo]

Indeed Zarafa has a bit of a steep learning curve, but there is a full RPM set as a contrib available and the fully automatic quick install script that now detects 32/64bit (See zarafa pages)

As for the free version, it supports 3 outlook clients without any license. And additional licenses for outlook clients are pretty cheap. But if you use another client like Thunderbird/Lighting or Zarafa webmail/webapp, there is no limit on the number of users.

If you want to give Zarafa another go I'm sure you will receive help here.

guest

That's awesome, good work, I'm impressed 

Thanks also for clarifying the license restrictions, that was a bit unclear on the Zarafa site when I looked 

[stephdl]

one question Noto, how did hear about sme server ?

[NoTo]

one question Noto, how did hear about sme server ?

I found it a few years ago when I first decided to look at changing the server, but then things got busy so I didn't pursue it until now.

[NoTo]

Indeed Zarafa has a bit of a steep learning curve, but there is a full RPM set as a contrib available and the fully automatic quick install script that now detects 32/64bit (See zarafa pages)

As for the free version, it supports 3 outlook clients without any license. And additional licenses for outlook clients are pretty cheap. But if you use another client like Thunderbird/Lighting or Zarafa webmail/webapp, there is no limit on the number of users.

If you want to give Zarafa another go I'm sure you will receive help here.

guest

Just so you know,

install-zarafa7.sh
-bash: install-zarafa7.sh: command not found

[NoTo]

Just so you know,

My bad 

[NoTo]

I got this when I ran it correctly:

Code: [Select]

./install-zarafa7.sh

./install-zarafa7.sh: line 1193: syntax error near unexpected token `)'
./install-zarafa7.sh: line 1193: `if [ `$(cat /etc/redhat-release|grep -o 8)` = "8"); then'


[guest22]

I got this when I ran it correctly:

Code: [Select]

./install-zarafa7.sh

./install-zarafa7.sh: line 1193: syntax error near unexpected token `)'
./install-zarafa7.sh: line 1193: `if [ `$(cat /etc/redhat-release|grep -o 8)` = "8"); then'


if [ `$(cat /etc/redhat-release|grep -o 8` = "8"); then

A ')' too much next to -o 8

[Jáder]

NoTo

Thanks by your report.
For webmail replacement (/groupware?), see http://www.sogo.nu/ and http://wiki.contribs.org/Sogo about how to install it on SME.

I've disable Horde/IMP on my server because users feel it UGLY/HORRIBLE

Regards

Jáder

[TerryF]

if [ `$(cat /etc/redhat-release|grep -o 8` = "8"); then

A ')' too much next to -o 8

Thi sis also producing the error
if [ `$(cat /etc/redhat-release|grep -o 8 ` = "8"); then

[guest22]

Thi sis also producing the error
if [ `$(cat /etc/redhat-release|grep -o 8 ` = "8"); then

Yep... Corrected it in the script. Funny enough the command line arguments differ from the same command in a script.

if [ $(cat /etc/redhat-release | grep -o 8 ) = "8" ]; then

[NoTo]

There's so much excellent work being done on this project that I have decided to stick with it and delay my roll-out. I feel convinced that a suitable Groupware (email and calendaring particularly) is just around the corner so I will wait a while longer in the short term.

Later I hope to discover a way that I can be more helpful for the project and get involved in some way.

In the meantime I shall continue to "play" on my test server and get to a point where I am comfortable with 'under the hood' tinkering.

[stephdl]

There's so much excellent work being done on this project that I have decided to stick with it and delay my roll-out. I feel convinced that a suitable Groupware (email and calendaring particularly) is just around the corner so I will wait a while longer in the short term.

Later I hope to discover a way that I can be more helpful for the project and get involved in some way.

In the meantime I shall continue to "play" on my test server and get to a point where I am comfortable with 'under the hood' tinkering.

nice vision of life NoTo

Try to make a virtual environment to test things, it is often better than a real test server, because when you break the server, it needs more time to make it again.
If you are not familiar with virtualization, you can work with virtualbox (it is what i use) it is quite easy. Install a VM, set some ibays and few users, then after that you can make a full clone many time you need.

nice to see a new contributor in the project

[NoTo]

Where would you like me to post errors, RequestedDeletion?

I get these:

Code: [Select]

Configuration of the Webaccess

/bin/chown: cannot access `/var/lib/zarafa-webaccess/tmp': No such file or directory
/bin/chown: cannot access `/var/lib/zarafa-webapp/tmp': No such file or directory

and

Code: [Select]

Starting Zarafa-services

/etc/e-smith/events/actions/zarafa-services: line 4: /etc/rc.d/init.d/zarafa-dagent: No such file or directory
/etc/e-smith/events/actions/zarafa-services: line 5: /etc/rc.d/init.d/zarafa-gateway: No such file or directory
/etc/e-smith/events/actions/zarafa-services: line 6: /etc/rc.d/init.d/zarafa-ical: No such file or directory
/etc/e-smith/events/actions/zarafa-services: line 8: /etc/rc.d/init.d/zarafa-monitor: No such file or directory
/etc/e-smith/events/actions/zarafa-services: line 9: /etc/rc.d/init.d/zarafa-spooler: No such file or directory
/etc/e-smith/events/actions/zarafa-services: line 10: /etc/rc.d/init.d/zarafa-indexer: No such file or directory
/etc/e-smith/events/actions/zarafa-services: line 11: /etc/rc.d/init.d/zarafa-server: No such file or directory


and

Code: [Select]

creating Public store

./install-zarafa7.0.sh: line 1137: /usr/bin/zarafa-admin: No such file or directory

All done. You must perform a: signal-event post-upgrade; signal-event reboot


[Stefano]

NoTo, since you are just testing, I'd suggest you to give SOGo another chance..

Zarafa's web UI is great but I think you should consider that:
- Zarafa is a M$ Exchange replacement: all the emails are stored in a single db (but the attached files thata are stored in the fs).. you can easily migrate TO zarafa, you surely will have many troubles to migrate FROM Zarafa..
- debugging Zarafa's errors is sometime hard because it has the same error codes you'll find in exchange..

SOGo is a fully opensource project.. no licenses needed, you can install and uninstall it without affecting yor server.. you can have the same email client on (almost) all O.S. (windows, linux, mac OSX, bsd and all the ooss supported by TB)
SOGo uses the standard daemons on the server, Zarafa needs its ones to work side by side with SME's ones (see the .qmail custom file)

HTH
ciao

[NoTo]

NoTo, since you are just testing, I'd suggest you to give SOGo another chance..

Zarafa's web UI is great but I think you should consider that:
- Zarafa is a M$ Exchange replacement: all the emails are stored in a single db (but the attached files thata are stored in the fs).. you can easily migrate TO zarafa, you surely will have many troubles to migrate FROM Zarafa..
- debugging Zarafa's errors is sometime hard because it has the same error codes you'll find in exchange..

SOGo is a fully opensource project.. no licenses needed, you can install and uninstall it without affecting yor server.. you can have the same email client on (almost) all O.S. (windows, linux, mac OSX, bsd and all the ooss supported by TB)
SOGo uses the standard daemons on the server, Zarafa needs its ones to work side by side with SME's ones (see the .qmail custom file)

HTH
ciao

I would like to Stefano, but I have far too many issues installing it with my low level of expertise. So far I have never got beyond the stage that the url is not found on my server when I browse there. I also get too may errors at the terminal when I try to follow the install on the contrib.

[Stefano]

I would like to Stefano, but I have far too many issues installing it with my low level of expertise. So far I have never got beyond the stage that the url is not found on my server when I browse there. I also get too may errors at the terminal when I try to follow the install on the contrib.

I'm seeing you having issue with Zarafa too

if you read carefully the wiki page (http://wiki.contribs.org/Sogo) you should be able to install it without any (big) issue and, in any case, we're here..

once you'll have SOGo working on a test server and Zarafa on another one, you can do all the tests you want, expecially on the admin side

all IMHO

[NoTo]

I'm seeing you having issue with Zarafa too

if you read carefully the wiki page (http://wiki.contribs.org/Sogo) you should be able to install it without any (big) issue and, in any case, we're here..

once you'll have SOGo working on a test server and Zarafa on another one, you can do all the tests you want, expecially on the admin side

all IMHO

Yes, my day is filled with all kinds of issues, not just Zarafa and SoGo 

I will try again later when I have got some work done 

[guest22]

Where would you like me to post errors, RequestedDeletion?

I'll take a look at it later today/evening. Thanks.

guest

[guest22]

Zarafa's web UI is great but I think you should consider that:
- Zarafa is a M$ Exchange replacement: all the emails are stored in a single db (but the attached files thata are stored in the fs).. you can easily migrate TO zarafa, you surely will have many troubles to migrate FROM Zarafa..

Attachment storage with Zarafa can be either on the fs (default in the script and backup up by default SME Server mechanisms) or in the database. A simple setting in a config file.

[Stefano]

Attachment storage with Zarafa can be either on the fs (default in the script and backup up by default SME Server mechanisms) or in the database. A simple setting in a config file.

indeed, I'm aware of it..

but all emails are into a single db (which can become very big)..
if you decide to migrate your email to (let's say) a clean SME you must extract them form zarafa.. and it could be very tricky (tested on my skin..)

with sogo or other kind of groupware that use standard maildir format, migration is almost easy as "one, two, three.." (Cit.)

[guest22]

Stefano,

I believe that once one has made a corporate choice for an email/calendaring platform based on many considerations, changing this platform will not happen any time soon. With regards to any change in platform in the future the question would be if the data is available and if it can be migrated. The level of difficulty to migrate, in my opinion, to a new future platform would not be a priority other then if it can be done and at what effort.

As with most of the GPL licensed applications, the data itself is stored based on GPL licensed applications. With all their benefits.

Other topics of interest would be the user experience and satisfaction, manageability and security and if applicable scalability, all based on a broader corporate strategy of business continuity.

Obviously NoTo is examining every angle on this and for a reason, probably that he is entrusted with this responsibility by his company. The only thing we should/can do is provide the best info we can based on SME Server. The choice what strategy to follow is up to the decision maker.

Hence the contribs.org wiki has no favourites and simply presents the possibilities. Whatever one may choose to do or select as an application or method, it's up to them.

Since NoTo introduced himself as a professional with good social, technical and management skills, I'm sure he will make the right choice for his company.

guest

[johnp]

HF and Stefano both provide articulate responses. As I haven't installed Sogo, I can only say that Zarafa looks slick. I have followed the developement of the open xchange project for some time though and looking down the road, I would be hard pressed not to go the Sogo route.

I don't think either choice would be bad. Hopefully we can continue to discuss the merits of either as that would be my goal.

Good topic for debate and discussion, IMHO. Thanks for starting it!

[guest22]

Where would you like me to post errors, RequestedDeletion?

NoTo,

my bad, I forgot to include a variable. Corrected it in the wiki script.

guest

[guest22]

but all emails are into a single db (which can become very big)..
if you decide to migrate your email to (let's say) a clean SME you must extract them form zarafa.. and it could be very tricky (tested on my skin..)

Stefano,

with regards to the size of the data, wouldn't the size be the same with both SoGo and Zarafa wherever or however the data is stored?

Migration to a new SME Server would be as easy as restoring a default SME Server backup for (with Zarafa) the attachments would be either in the MySQL db or file system directory and both are being backed up and restored by SME Server (8 and 9) by default.

Regards,
guest

ps. If you refer to a 'clean' SME Server, thus without any email/calendaring platform, other than falling back to stock SME Server, I sincerely doubt that that will ever happen in a corporate environment. Not even as an intermediate solution 'in between' migrating to a new platform of choice.

[Stefano]

Stefano,

with regards to the size of the data, wouldn't the size be the same with both SoGo and Zarafa wherever or however the data is stored?

sure but..

but with Zarafa you have data into a mysql db (with a "unknown" structure), with SOGo/SME you have a filesystem strucure: directories, files.. and they are available without any problem

Migration to a new SME Server would be as easy as restoring a default SME Server backup for (with Zarafa) the attachments would be either in the MySQL db or file system directory and both are being backed up and restored by SME Server (8 and 9) by default.

I would be surprised if they weren't

ps. If you refer to a 'clean' SME Server, thus without any email/calendaring platform, other than falling back to stock SME Server, I sincerely doubt that that will ever happen in a corporate environment. Not even as an intermediate solution 'in between' migrating to a new platform of choice.

try to migrate from SME/SOGo to any other kind of groupware solution (Zimbra?) and from SME/Zarafa..

in the first case you can (also) uninstall SOGo and your server will work without any issue.. and to migrate you can copy your maildir to the target machine and voilà, you are almost done..
with Zarafa, if you want to move to another solution, you have to "extract" emails from Zarafa itself.. and this is/could be a little tricky

SOGo is a "package" that offer a web UI, some features but relies on the local daemons and filesystem
Zarafa is a package that need to use its own daemons and data structure.. GPL or not, the approach in this case is different from the "standard" way (and more like the M$/proprietary way)

[NoTo]

Thankyou both for the interesting information on the different ways that Sogo and Zarafa store data. Neither way worries me, as both are good systems with good reputations and survive in organisations much, much bigger than mine. I'd be happy to get just one of them up and running 

At the moment, Zarafa is looking easier for me to get up and running, but I am trying to get both running on the test machines so that users can make the decision. Over the years I have found that if I can give the users what they're most happy with, they will use it with more enthusiasm and be much more tolerant if things go wrong. I even found that naming the server after a cartoon character makes them much warmer towards using IT systems. It kind of makes them treat it like a colleague rather than annoying technology that spoils their day 

But all that said, I'm way out of date now. I left the IT sector just when NT4 was coming in. I spent most of my IT career looking after MP/M systems and later Netware 2 and 3, and I lost count of how many nights I spent nursing a PDP11 back to life 

[NoTo]

I've started building the main production server today that will perform all the main server functions, ie file sharing, remote access, user management, mailserver etc, but not webmail/calendring. Once that is stable and all data transferred from the old machine, I will continue with the groupware trials on the SME8 test server..

As an interim measure, we will be using Horde Groupware Webmail 5.1.2 on a Lubuntu PC, running on Bitnami LAMP Stack 5.4.22.

It may be that this becomes the permanent solution as the users find it much nicer to use than the earlier Horde on SME. It's not the ideal scenario, but one that works ok for now and allows us to transition over to the new hardware and retire the old system. At least all the mail will then be on the SME8 machine and the calendars easily exportable to transfer to whatever ends up on the SME8 machine, and it gives me more time to continue groupware trials.

[frifri]

We already had an interesting discussion about groupwaresolutions : http://forums.contribs.org/index.php/topic,49710.0.html

I learned that sogo will become interesting ounce SAMBA4 is used in SME ...

F.

PS. at the end of that tread (p.3) you will find instruction to install horde 5 on SME.

[Stefano]

We already had an interesting discussion about groupwaresolutions : http://forums.contribs.org/index.php/topic,49710.0.html

I learned that sogo will become interesting ounce SAMBA4 is used in SME ...

F.

PS. at the end of that tread (p.3) you will find instruction to install horde 5 on SME.

I disagree

SOGo is already interesting because you can choose also to be indipendent from outlook.. 

[frifri]

Stefano,

I (and a lot of others) don't have that choice ... (some of us even hate M$) 

F.

[NoTo]

We already had an interesting discussion about groupwaresolutions : http://forums.contribs.org/index.php/topic,49710.0.html

I learned that sogo will become interesting ounce SAMBA4 is used in SME ...

F.

PS. at the end of that tread (p.3) you will find instruction to install horde 5 on SME.

Will this break SME 8? I note the script specifically says it is for 9. I ask as I don't use 9.

[frifri]

you better contact John : http://johnbennettservices.com/

F.

[alefattorini]

Hi NoTo,
i'm very involved in SOGo Project from years, i have created a i'm maintaining smeserver-sogo and smeserver-sogo-thundenderbird rpms
I can quote what Stefano said: "SOGo is a "package" that offer a web UI, some features but relies on the local daemons and filesystem"
It's offer a modern webui  addition a strong integration with Thunderbid  and mobile device like iPhone, Android, using open standard like caldav and carddav

I said too "but I have far too many issues installing it with my low level of expertise. So far I have never got beyond the stage that the url is not found on my server when I browse there. I also get too may errors at the terminal when I try to follow the install on the contrib."
On NethServer you can install and auto-configure it with a simple command:
 yum install nethserver-sogo nethserver-sogo-thunderbird sogo-frontends
Or by webui with a single click
Then the url to point is https://ip_yourserver/sogo

Give it a chance i'm ready for release new rpms integration with sogo 2.1.1b and Thunderbird24
http://nethserver.nethesis.it/index.php?id=download
https://dev.nethesis.it/projects/nethserver/wiki/Nethserver-sogo

[NoTo]

On NethServer you can install and auto-configure it with a simple command:
 yum install nethserver-sogo nethserver-sogo-thunderbird sogo-frontends
Or by webui with a single click
Then the url to point is https://ip_yourserver/sogo

I have done all that, but still it says

Code: [Select]

Not Found

The requested URL /sogo was not found on this server.
When I re-run

yum install nethserver-sogo nethserver-sogo-thunderbird sogo-frontends

it says

Code: [Select]

No package nethserver-sogo available.
No package nethserver-sogo-thunderbird available.
No package sogo-frontends available.
Nothing to do
So I declare myself to be officially "out of my depth" 

[alefattorini]

Sorry, maybe i wasn't clear. I have appreciated your useful "Considerations, comparisons and potential selections" then i have suggested another product to add at your selection
You should test http://www.nethserver.it and you can use the commands above only on it.
You can find another comparison that you can help you: http://www.nethserver.it/index.php?id=development_features_nethserver-sme-server
Thank you for attention

[NoTo]

Thanks, I shall take a look.

[NoTo]

Hi NoTo,
i'm very involved in SOGo Project from years, i have created a i'm maintaining smeserver-sogo and smeserver-sogo-thundenderbird rpms
I can quote what Stefano said: "SOGo is a "package" that offer a web UI, some features but relies on the local daemons and filesystem"
It's offer a modern webui  addition a strong integration with Thunderbid  and mobile device like iPhone, Android, using open standard like caldav and carddav

I said too "but I have far too many issues installing it with my low level of expertise. So far I have never got beyond the stage that the url is not found on my server when I browse there. I also get too may errors at the terminal when I try to follow the install on the contrib."
On NethServer you can install and auto-configure it with a simple command:
 yum install nethserver-sogo nethserver-sogo-thunderbird sogo-frontends
Or by webui with a single click
Then the url to point is https://ip_yourserver/sogo

Give it a chance i'm ready for release new rpms integration with sogo 2.1.1b and Thunderbird24
http://nethserver.nethesis.it/index.php?id=download
https://dev.nethesis.it/projects/nethserver/wiki/Nethserver-sogo

I had a close look at Nethserver and it shows much promise.

However, it just presents the opposite problems.

Where I find SME8 ugly, Neth64 is beautiful.

Where I find SME8 beautiful, Neth 64 is ugly.

For example, neth64 has a excellent user interface and it works in much more of a way that I want. The package manager is particularly good and I think SME8 should have one. I think package managers are one of the bigger reasons that people come to Linux for both server and desktop, because it does-away with all that horrible command line stuff. It is the sole reason I went over to Linux on the desktop five years ago.

However, SME8 wins on documentation. I know Neth is young so I cannot expect it to have the vast library that SME does, however it has proved to be a sticking point for me. After one hour, I still cannot work out how to add fetchmail to Neth as there is no documentation anywhere and not the merest hint of how to do so. It's a small issue I know, but one that is important to me and my set-up.

But that's just one small example.

So Neth has all I want, but will be some years before it is documented enough for "ordinary users".

SME8 doesn't have all I want, and it looks like it will be some years before it does or the contribs for the missing bits to be "friendly enough".

I think it is one of those situations where both distros would ABSOLUTELY benefit from the other in a joint effort.

Graham (who like both, but can't do it with either) 

[stephdl]

nethserver=php
smeserver=perl

two visions of world

indeed Europeans are really competitors in free software

Now the bet is to attract a community with this distribution, because you can have the best product if nobody use it, it is hard to maintain and develop it...it looks like zentyal at beginning, it took months before that people know it, use it , trust it....and so long.

But it is a good adventure...i look...

[janet]

NoTo et al

SME8 doesn't have all I want, and it looks like it will be some years before it does or the contribs for the missing bits to be "friendly enough".

Firstly maybe you are still learning about SME server, so more knowledge/experience is needed.
It could also be a case of you want everything (now), but this is a free open source code world, & things happen as & when people contribute their time & effort.
Everything is not perfect, most things are in a constant state or flux of development & redevelopment & improvement etc. Things are better than they used to be some years ago.

If something is not right, then get in & fix it, do it yourself or pay someone to do it for you.
If you have a specific requirement that is important to you or urgently required for your business/personal interests, then sponsor a developer (with cash) to implement it. We all then benefit from your investment, many parts of sme server have been implemented due to corporate sponsorship.

SME server is (in my  opinion) the best free all round server alternative, so learn to live with it's limitations, for there is nothing out there that is any better or has any better answers for many & varied user issues.

So Neth has all I want, but will be some years before it is documented enough for "ordinary users".
I think it is one of those situations where both distros would ABSOLUTELY benefit from the other in a joint effort.
Graham (who like both, but can't do it with either) 

Neth proposed themselves to sme server users late in 2012 (I think), a merger was an obvious outcome, a commercial entity & a community combining.
It seemed though, that Neth had their own strong mindset about how the project would advance & be implemented, whereas the contribs org community & current & past developers saw it a bit differently. I guess one of the sticking points was the use of php based code vs perl based code.
So this in part, inspired the community to reform (or perhaps improve their formation & motivation), thus spawning the koozali name & entity etc.
Here we are today, with sme9 nearly ready to go.
As I see it, perhaps if Neth had been more open to ideas or input from the community, & more proactive/interactive about it, then maybe the community may have joined up with them as corporate sponsors, but that did not happen. The community has decided to go it alone with developing sme9 based on CentOS 6, & modelled on/copied from the existing sme8 code.

The long term survival of both Neth & SME/Koozali is yet to be seen, but it seems there is willingness on both sides & there are dedicated people behind both.
Ultimately it's an end users choice what server platform to use, the people will decide whether one or both remain viable.
SME has a proven track record, but much of it's success lies in the hands of a few people, without those people it may have faltered & failed, but others have come on the scene to take over the reigns from time to time, just when it seemed that all was not well. Such is human nature to kick in & get inspired when the going gets tough. During those seemingly low times, senior developers were still developing & fixing code, despite politics within the community & opinions of doomsayers, suggesting the end of SME server.

I personally have confidence that SME/Koozali server will continue for years to come, it's simply too good doing what it does & beats all the rest for the combination of simplicity, security & functionality. Updating the look & feel will happen when people have the time (or cash) to do it. For now the safe & secure approach has been taken, after all the server will still function despite it's "appearance".

[NoTo]

I think I may not have been clear and my words have been misunderstood.

[janet]

NoTo

I do not think there was anything to misunderstand in what you said, as what you said was quite clear.
In what way do you feel your words were misunderstood ?
If you do mean to say something else, then please say it again, more clearly this time.

[alefattorini]

For example, neth64 has a excellent user interface and it works in much more of a way that I want. The package manager is particularly good and I think SME8 should have one. I think package managers are one of the bigger reasons that people come to Linux for both server and desktop, because it does-away with all that horrible command line stuff. It is the sole reason I went over to Linux on the desktop five years ago.

However, SME8 wins on documentation. I know Neth is young so I cannot expect it to have the vast library that SME does, however it has proved to be a sticking point for me. After one hour, I still cannot work out how to add fetchmail to Neth as there is no documentation anywhere and not the merest hint of how to do so. It's a small issue I know, but one that is important to me and my set-up.
<snip>

So Neth has all I want, but will be some years before it is documented enough for "ordinary users".

Hi Graham,
i'm glad that you like nethserver package manager and user interface, we worked very hard on them!
Sorry for lack of documentation, there is a lot of tecnhical stuff here dev.nethesis.it but you're right, there is not much documentation for "ordinary users".
We're working on it, if you want help you're welcome

Ciao,
Alessio

[alefattorini]

indeed Europeans are really competitors in free software

eehehe Stephen, told by a French ;-D

Now the bet is to attract a community with this distribution, because you can have the best product if nobody use it, it is hard to maintain and develop it...it looks like zentyal at beginning, it took months before that people know it, use it , trust it....and so long.
But it is a good adventure...i look...

Thanks for your trust, the adventure is started

[filippoc]

nethserver=php

NethServer is mostly written in perl, retaining most of the brilliant concepts behind e-smith.
PHP is used only for the server-manager interface, that is a frontend to the db and events.
NethServer is highly modular, the server-amaner interface could be substitued by the current old server-manager written in perl.

[Stefano]

hi Filippo

could you please give us a link to the source packages? are they (all) under GPL?

TIA

[filippoc]

It seemed though, that Neth had their own strong mindset about how the project would advance & be implemented, whereas the contribs org community & current & past developers saw it a bit differently. I guess one of the sticking points was the use of php based code vs perl based code.
So this in part, inspired the community to reform (or perhaps improve their formation & motivation), thus spawning the koozali name & entity etc.
Here we are today, with sme9 nearly ready to go.
As I see it, perhaps if Neth had been more open to ideas or input from the community, & more proactive/interactive about it, then maybe the community may have joined up with them as corporate sponsors, but that did not happen. The community has decided to go it alone with developing sme9 based on CentOS 6, & modelled on/copied from the existing sme8 code.

We (nethesis) were, still are and always be open to ideas or input from the community. Openness is one of the strongest point in our job.
Last year we asked input from the community while in early alpha stages, when community input could have major influence on the development.
You could re-read the whole thread on the devinfo mailing list archives. I'm just highlighting the following mail that I used to explain why we felt that a fork was the best thing to do:
http://lists.contribs.org/pipermail/devinfo/2013-January/011222.html

You could watch the completely open development process of NethServer on dev.nethesis.it or you could see how we discuss thing on our mailing list.

I wrote this post because I feel sad to read false statements about the people who work on NethServer.
I never imagined that our announce would have moved such feelings. I'm still in the position I expressed to John: we still would like to merge with smeserver.

[filippoc]

could you please give us a link to the source packages? are they (all) under GPL?

https://dev.nethesis.it/projects/nethserver
There is much more than sources.
It's all GPL licensed.

[janet]

filippoc

I wrote this post because I feel sad to read false statements about the people who work on NethServer.
I never imagined that our announce would have moved such feelings. I'm still in the position I expressed to John: we still would like to merge with smeserver.

I do not believe I made a false statement.
I read of no attempt by Nethserver staff to seriously consider & implement the non php server manager. Charlie spoke of using Mojolicious to rewrite it, where is your active involvement in that ?

IIRC there were other areas/issues that were not adequately answered.

I do not personally see a merger as a bad thing, as community & corporate could assist each other, much as the community & e-smith/Mitel did.
Neth in effect set the position of the goalposts according to their corporate requirements & design goals, & there was not a lot of room for community & external developers to give serious input that would change the basic Neth design.
Neth in effect said, here it is, this is how we are doing it, who wants to join in.

I see very little or no response to design suggestions & comments made by community/external developers etc.

Perhaps you do not see that as you have been so close to the project.

[filippoc]

I'm sorry if I used "strong words". Please accept my apologies.
I think that nobody verified our openness, nobody asked for collaboration (apart saying "stop using php").
I think we have answered all question, but, if we didn't, just ask again.

We have a short list of goals here:
http://nethserver.nethesis.it/index.php?id=development_features_nethserver-sme-server

We are open to discuss every feature, see our mailing list for examples.

We even tried to involve devinfo and followed advises received, e.g.:
http://lists.contribs.org/pipermail/devinfo/2013-May/011691.html

We can be reached through our mailing list, on #nethserver IRC channel, phone, etc.

[NoTo]

Can I apologise of my thread has raised 'issues' and re-opened old wounds? It was never the intention...

It is plain from the outside that the two projects need proverbially grabbing by the scruff of the neck and having their heads firmly banged together.

SME is awesome, but much more 'niche market' than NethServer, that wants to head more 'mass market'. Whether you agree or not, i don't really care, but from the comments I've read on this and dozens of other threads, it's a fact (whether you like it and know it or not).

A niche is a FANTASTIC place to be, if you understand your niche. Similarly, the mass market is a FANTASTIC place to be if you understand the masses.

Provided SME plays to it's strengths, it will survive, and similarly NethServer. But together? No way, forget it, it just won't work.

SME should concentrate on filling the needs of it's userbase, and so should NethServer. Both userbases WILL be and ARE different (again, whether you like it or not), so for christ's sake cease the debate and get on with it.

As history has unequivocally demonstrated, a niche cannot survive in the mass market, and similarly the mass market will not survive in a niche. The niche will always want something very specific, the masses the latest and greatest shiny things. But concentrate on what you do and fill the needs of your users, and both will survive. Just not together.

[janet]

filippoc

I think we have answered all question, but, if we didn't, just ask again.

Just answering questions & providing justification is not really sufficient, you are just saying "Here is why we did it".
That is certainly not the same thing as responding to comments & criticisms & making actual changes.

I cannot directly speak for others, but it does seem to me that Neth made many "big" changes, too many for existing users & developers to feel comfortable with.
Perhaps a slower rate of change, & more interaction with existing developers & users before making changes, was required.

But then you tried that a long time ago, & lack of response to your design goals & preferences are what caused you to decide to go it alone, & create Neth server.
If you want (or wanted) more support from the community, then I think you had to (or still have to) engage the community & accept their design input, you cannot expect people to go along with the Neth way of doing things, if it does not really suit or match or come close to, how they do things now. Change is great, but it has to be tempered & dished out in small doses to be palatable.

I guess that's why the community decided to create sme9, it is essentially the same thing as sme8, just using CentOS6, so no big design changes & no big design surprises. Simply said, no changes at all really.

I think I said it earlier, ultimately it's a choice for end users to go with Neth, or sme/Koozali or something else.

How do you get the community to be more involved with Neth & to merge with you.
I believe it was said in one of the mail list links you provided, revert many of your changes back to the old sme server way of doing things.
Carry on the tradition (which has good technical reasons for being followed), & implement changes slowly & gradually.

Is Neth prepared to revert many of the changes they have made & liaise much more agreeably with the community users & developers ?

[filippoc]

Is Neth prepared to revert many of the changes they have made & liaise much more agreeably with the community users & developers ?

Yes.

[janet]

NoTo

I do not think there is fighting or such like going on here, it's just words & we are having a friendly discussion.

I would like to point out, how many niche OS's are surviving after 14 years, sme is still here in essentially the same flavour it was when it was first released, greatly improved of course.
The only thing holding back greater change & improvement is developer time, (& funding).

If "free" developers & corporate developers (sponsored), willingly got together for a think tank session, & held on to a common goal set, then much could happen to sme server in a relatively short time span. Imagine if the Neth developers had just given one tenth of their time to improving the current sme8/9 server, how good would it be ?

[janet]

filippoc

Yes.

Well then, I think that's something you should be putting to the new Koozali board, but as well or more specifically putting to the current developers, on devinfo mailing list.

[stephdl]

You could re-read the whole thread on the devinfo mailing list archives. I'm just highlighting the following mail that I used to explain why we felt that a fork was the best thing to do:
http://lists.contribs.org/pipermail/devinfo/2013-January/011222.html

I remember , in french we say : un pavé dans la mare (a big rock in the water)

You could watch the completely open development process of NethServer on dev.nethesis.it or you could see how we discuss thing on our mailing list.
I wrote this post because I feel sad to read false statements about the people who work on NethServer.
I never imagined that our announce would have moved such feelings. I'm still in the position I expressed to John: we still would like to merge with smeserver.

I have never talked or heard fail statement on people who work on nethserver, even if i think that sharing the community is not a good idea...we are not legion.
If you go out of contribs and you ask to people if they know sme-server, often the answer is NO, therefore nethserver...i do not know.
But your message of december 2012 was an electroshock for the community, a good electroshock as we were sleeping...please look

-sme9 is on the road.
-contribs are most in smecontribs, workable, with some new works.
-around 1 000 000 characters more in the documentation (new contribs, New HowTo, new manuals, new French Translation....)
-new developers.
-a new hope

no i want to say thank you Nethserver, but for all members of smeserver community, please continue to work, to contribute, this is the power of SME and our future

filippoc you should talk to john...even if i'm a board member, i thing that start a conversation with the chairman is often a good way....sorry French thought !