Topic: The State of the Distro

[Anonymous]

Well I say lets go back to the way it was with the leadership team.

And those who think it can be done better at sourceforge well GO.

Did a great job till it all stopped and now it is floundering. Please lets get back to were there was some development and some forward looking and moving.

Great work Guys let's not let it all go to waste.

You will please some people all of the time, but you can't always please all of the people some of the time.

[Alaska Matt]

Hi All from Alaska.  I appreciate all the work that's gone into SME Server, the contribs website, and the forums; not to mention the how-tos.  Our business now has multiple offices across Alaska, and SME 6 has been a perfect fit for easy remote access, remote monitoring, and quick-n-dirty vpn file sharing.  We initially tried a full red hat distro, but found that it was easier to maintain and train users with SME.  

Since I recommended SME to be our primary server, I (like many others) now have a responsibility to assist in the upkeep of SME, support, and the distro process.  Having read this thread it appears that many well-intentioned suggestions have been made, and several work lists are already in use, but the biggest problem is that the majority of ideas cannot tie together:  a for-profit style of management is being recommended and seems to be gaining support, while a pseudo-volunteer work method is to be employed to get the actual programming and support done.  

From a management advisory standpoint, my company would like to put forward the following observations:
1)  There are tens to hundreds of thousands of users out there - many of whom are simply users, not developers.  For example - there is me, the implementer (1), and every other employee here (40).  While tended to be discredited for not putting forward "maintaining effort", these are the customers.  If they're not happy, those of us who do the actual upkeep (either locally or for the entire user-base) are not happy either.  These people likely know nothing of contribs.org, so their feedback can only be presented through long wish-lists, by people doing work similar to me.  

2)  Focus is lost.  Having just reviewed some of the documentation on the old e-smith website, the old server had a very narrow focus, as others have observed in this topic.  It's ok to have a narrow focus.  I have found numerous how-tos in recent months to implement the extended tools I've wanted or needed.  Based on the number of hits at swerts-knudsen, it appears that others are finding those useful as well.  

3)  No fearless leaders!  In a faceless organization, management boards will be the best route.  It may be best to determine an x-member (5,10,12,15?)oversight committee with specific goals or standards.  Those members should be well familiar with the project - programming, finance, membership, website, history, and support.  Beneath that, cooperative subcommittees overseeing each of these areas would then be able to determine monthly or quarterly goals, and have specific tasks available for volunteers.  Communication will be key to ensure that duplicated work is minimized.  With a management structure such as this, the work requirements on each individual will be lessened to an amount that should be relatively easy to handle, even under volunteer standards.  Many corporate oversight and guidance committees (in the U.S.) are done by professionals volunteering a portion of their time, or through companies willing to donate resources and people.  There will be plenty of volunteers who like the late-night problem solving - answering questions, creating new add-ons, and fixing security problems.  Rewards and incentives don't necessarily need to be cash-based, nor do they need to be large.  These can be set by each subcommittee in due time.

I hope this is not too vague, and I gladly look forward to reading others' ideas!

-- Alaska Matt

[boringgit]

1) Yep - step right up and take a whack at it. Sign up just so everyone know someone is working on it.

OK, signed up and put my initials against the one I will have a go at.
[/quote]

2) It's difficult but possible to include images in the wiki. If you want several images it's probably easier to make a standard web page w/images folder. We can stick it somewhere if you want, and embed it in a wiki page for navigation
[/quote]

Hmm..

Will take screen grabs where they seem appropriate, and link them.

If inline seems better I will redo then.

[RonM]

Great to see rubber on the road! Pls let us know if there is anything someone can do to help out.

[stancol]

I say the solution is simple. Stop listening to the people that didn't like the direction SME is going. Let those that didn't like the direction take off and go their own way. Well I say lets go back to the way it was with the leadership team.

I couldn't have said it better than "Guest" myself.

Did a great job till it all stopped and now it is floundering. Please lets get back to were there was some development and some forward looking and moving.

Great work Guys let's not let it all go to waste.

You will please some people all of the time, but you can't always please all of the people some of the time

Just remember that nobody ever kicks a dead dog. If people are knocking the Disto that must mean it's really good. Once again stop listen to the nay sayers and let them go their own way. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Anonymous]

Well Ill be happy to goto Sourceforge If I can get what mitel gave contribs

[sonoracomm]

Hi,

I'm a long-time E-Smith/SME user.  I benefit from it financially...my company is a 'network VAR' supporting mostly small businesses and I install 9 SME servers to every Windows or Netware box.

I'm pretty happy with SME as it is.  I think it needs SMTPAUTH pretty badly, but I mostly like it the way it is.  I also very much like the 'pretty face' the contribs.org team (?) added.  Frankly, as a professioonal support person, I don't want to see version changes too often.  Easy to apply updates, yes...version upgrades no.

I want to thank everyone who has helped me over the years by answering my posts or by simply contributing to a really great project.  THANK YOU ALL!

I haven't been very active on the forums lately, but I have, over the years, helped a lot of folks.  I'll try to answer a few more posts.

As for ideas, I have a couple.  As I'm not a programmer, nor web designer, nor do I have much free time, I gravitate towards financial assistance ideas.

1) How about creating a ClubSME...something like ClubMandrake...Web based and low-maintenance.  Mandrake pulled themselves out of bankruptcy (partly) using this mechanism.  I joined the Club at the $65/year level simply to contribute to a good cause and because I felt guilty for not paying ANYTHING.  It might even be tax deductible!?  (I'm no accountant either)

2) I'm sure there are lots of other resellers/VARs/vendors out there making money supporting SME.  What if we had a campaign/program/web page/awards (or something) for the number of 'sponsors' or 'ClubSME Memberships' we signed up.  Hell, I'd like a SME coffee mug or T-shirt!  I'm sure I could sign up every new SME server customer to the 'Club' at the $65/year level with no problem...

I don't know how we would use or distribute the funds generated, but I can't help but think it would help.

3) If anyone thinks it valuable/useful/helpful, I would offer my expertise for paid support.  Assuming this hasn't already been done, Why don't we create a 'Support' page where support professionals can offer their (paid) services for people needing urgent support.  This sounds like a 'Professional' ClubSME membership level to me...  

4) Over the years, I have written a 'Supporting SME' document that we use here to help support our customers in the field.  It's not a manual, per se, but a guide to implementing certain features that many small businesses need.  Maybe it could be a useful SME documentation supplement?  The only part I have previously published was an ASSP spam filtering howto (which is about to be updated)...

5) I virtually always have test boxes around where I could test new features/versions.  If this would be helpful, I could help with testing.

G

Gene Cooper
Sonora Communications, Inc.

[stancol]

I wasn't much in favor of a paid SME function, mostly because I think it would limit users. Does sound like a good idea to start a Paid Support Area. If you want priority support you could log onto a page that you've subscribed to, to get expert advice in a timely manner. Profits could go back to support Contribs.org and maybe some of the support staff. Somewhat like Red Hat used to do with updates. You could always get the updates for free if you wanted to wait until the paid people got theirs first. This way you could generate some cash but not cut out the people that wouldn't want to or couldn't pay for support. The community would stay large enough to cover all needs but might be able to generate some cash at the same time. I wouldn't even mind paying for expert advice if I knew I could get it in a timely manner. You could offer the service on a pay-per-use basis and/or a monthly subscription basis. Lets face it folks bandwidth isn't free and there shouldn't be anything wrong with Contribs.org wanted to recoup some money or even making some profits. Profits would benefit the community too in that upgrades to servers and soft wear to run the site could be bought when needed. Contrary to what you see on TV making money isn't just for greedy selfish people.

[Anonymous]

When will you guys get it through your thick heads that 'democracy' is just another word for 'mob rule', and it doesn't work. Look at the miracle of Singapore for example.  Or Korea.  How far do you think they would have come without benign dictatorship?  

Why do the wingers and whiners who moan about everything and contribute nothing see it as their god given right to inflict their views on the rest of us?  Because they know that they can wreck almost everything without doing anything other than appealing to your overblown sense of fair play.  

Take my tip.  Tell them that the only people who can determine in which direction this project goes are those who contribute.  They more they contribute the more 'say' they can have, and vice versa -- no ticky... no laundly!  Put up or shut the f**k up.

Give me benign dictatorship any day of the week.  You may not like the direction but at least you know its going somewhere.

Now, where was I...

 

[terencem]

When will you guys get it through your thick heads that 'democracy' is just another word for 'mob rule', and it doesn't work. Look at the miracle of Singapore for example.  Or Korea.  How far do you think they would have come without benign dictatorship?  

Why do the wingers and whiners who moan about everything and contribute nothing see it as their god given right to inflict their views on the rest of us?  Because they know that they can wreck almost everything without doing anything other than appealing to your overblown sense of fair play.  

Take my tip.  Tell them that the only people who can determine in which direction this project goes are those who contribute.  They more they contribute the more 'say' they can have, and vice versa -- no ticky... no laundly!  Put up or shut the f**k up.

Give me benign dictatorship any day of the week.  You may not like the direction but at least you know its going somewhere.

Now, where was I...

 

Ooops!  That was me.  Sorry, I forgot to log in.

[shmeg]

Hi All,
I have been following and contributing to discussions and I have disovered that I have become frustrated, and I suspect a few of us are in a similar position.

I have been deploying SME since 4.1.2 upwards of 100 installations. I have been on the development leg devising ways to use sme under full and half duplex satellite, radius and the latest effort vpopmail. I have never documented these solutions though I have offered support consistently in forums.

The last paragraph was simply to demonstrate my commitment to this distro. The next I hop emight clarify some of our issues.

I have been tossing around what exactly ARE our issues it all seems very muddy at the moment.

Maybe the following might help us clarify things:
It seems to me that we are combining very distinct needs and trying to satisfy all in one bucket.

We need to divest contribs.org of core development and support it in what it does best - hosting the user community. We have two priorities here: Support and core development! Separate needs, separate solutions.

Core needs
----------
Core distro development (future releases)
- A core team of dedicated skilled deveopers who are in it for the long haul. The priority to move development to later kernels - not for the faint hearted.

Core distro development (current updates and bugfixes)
- As above but possibly other less skilled devlopers or developers with lower commitment levels or resources.

Sourceforge seems the best place to do this. the collaboration facilities already exist and are proven.
The core teams can be organised immediately, without having to prove and develop ways to communicate.

Support
-------
Contribs.org offers the best opportunity for this community to survive.

User community (hosting and maintenance)
- I hope Jeff will continue to generously offer hosting and site support (including backup   ).
Regular backup mirrored at other sites donated by volunteers would make sense.

User community (Updates and content)
This is up to the majority of 'I am not a developer, I have a bit of experience, I want to help but what can I do?" type people. This looks like an excellent place to volunteer and get started.
http://no.longer.valid/phpwiki/index.php/Site%20Work%20List

User community (Online support and howtos)
Contribs.org provides an online repository of forums, howtos, and contribs storage. The majority of us contribute just as we always have.

Third party contribs
--------------------
Contrib hosting
On contribs.org (primary site for tested rpms (another issue)) untested on developers sites

Contrib Support
Separate forum on contribs.org for each tested rpm
untested support in general forums or on developers site

Independant developers
support their own sites and support unless putting their rpms up for testing and therefore validating them for sme.


Additional considerations
-------------------------
EVERYONE should have to login to post. Sick of reading abuse only to find that someone hasn't had the guts to sign in. Or as I just discovered the timeouts aren't sufficient to write an essay like this.

I am in support of free reading of support forums but you have to have membership to post. This should be nominal. $5-$10pa or similar. This to go to support the running of contribs.org under an transperant and accountable process. I have said it before and I will say again. Jeff you own the hardware and site but the posted content belongs to the community. We all posted in good faith for the benefit of everyone and that is to be preserved. However jeff and his team should not have to take abuse from us when they generously offer resources to this project. Memberships should pay for this. The balance are paid in honorariums to core distro developers as equal shares. No this should not become a paid project! for good reasons which we can discuss later - but as stated frequently nothing is free.

This stuff is basic: most of us don't care how the details get worked out as long as the distro survives and progress in a positive manner! I was only recently telling someone how unique the support for sme is (positive and generous) exactly what is intended in a community of this nature.

OK SO NEXT STEPS
We need a register of skills separated in the above areas with current contact details. I am willing to mediate this process, and I know a couple of you have similar project management backgrounds like me.

Email me with your contact details and nominated areas of committment. If you have any areas or resources to commit to the above needs areas email me: I will compile a list.

register@sme.ontrack.com.au

If you have project management skill as mentioned email me so we can get together a working party that will do
nothing except sort out some directions for us to take. This WP is not development or SME direction it if for project leadership only.

If I have overstepped the mark, I apologise to those who feel a bit offended/threatened that I have stepped up to the plate. Tell me to pull my head in . . thats fine I will go back to my busy life. But please be sure you are volunteering to take responsibility in improving my suggestions.

I have assumed a lot in the above re: Jeff and Hsing other very committed people. I like others do not know how deeply involved in the project people are? Please distribute this to people you know should be reading it.

I will see who registers and sends comments directly then I will distribute back to the community. I see my place in this process as a mediator and motivator.
Please don't attack me for stepping up (this is an imperfect start - but isnt it great to start) - offer something contructive to move on.

Deadline is one week from today to register.
Next Wednesday the 21st July I will post a list minus privates and confidentials in the needs areas to give
feedback on whether this process will move ahead.

Ben Morrisson BA-Media CCNA CCDA (for those who care of such things)
Technical Director
InterWorX Technologies

[lancew]

Hi all,

here is my contribution to the debate.

I agree leadership is required, the formality of which is up to us to decide. Personally I don't think it needs to be overly heavy.

The idea of moving a bulk of the effort to sourceforge sounds sensible. After all Sourceforge is all about providing the tools to allow projects to develop.

It may also simplify the leadership issue. Those who are interested can/could become "Developers" and they would then lead the project forward. No elections no B.S. etc. Simply those who contribute would lead things forward.

Lets also not fool ourselves, a project like this will be "lead" by those who write the code. So as much as I as a non-coder might want to drive things along the reality is that it will only happen if there are people who are happy to write the code and listen to my ideas/suggestions.

So my personal "path forward" is this...
 1)Move the "distro" to sourceforge
 2)Those who want to be involved sign up as "developers"
 3)We compile a list of suggestions for the distro
 4)We invite people to list the three top suggestions that should be implemented
 5)Those who can do the work implement the top three
 6)Make a release
 7)GOTO 7

Thoughts?

Lance

[cranky]

Hi to all and specifically the contibs.org leaders!

I'd like to start my opus with a thank you to all who have worked on the distro and the contribs site to date.  Your work is appreciated.
IMHO one of the issues we have is a communication problem.  There is little 'official' communication from the team (development, documentation, leadership etc.) to the contribs community in a spot that is easy to find.  We have comments in numerous threads running through the forums made by people that are
1) fed up of people complaining and not helping the community
2) offering to help but don't know what is needed
3) offering to help but don't know who to coordinate their efforts with
4) either offering to or actually 'taking charge' of some aspect of moving our distro forward (which inadventantly seems to duplicate a similar offer(s) in other threads...)

With the latest 'State of the Distro' thread, we again have a call to action and these four similar types of posts have occured in a number of concurrent threads.  What I have noticed is that we are not getting much feedback from those that have led us this far in the first place!  This is NOT a knock on them personally, but how is one to know what to volunteer for if regular, centralized feedback is not provided by those who are leading contribs.org?

A number of polls have been created for such issues as how hosting should be handled and what our organization should look like in the future.  At what point do these suggestions get acted on and by whom?  I'm not being sarcastic - I'm confused about this point.  Judging from the tone of the initial post from JC, with these excerpts in particular...

"...Frankly, the contribs team is sick of the complaints. YOU (not someone else), start figuring out how to get the recent e-smith updates into the SME Server. YOU (not someone else), develop a leadership structure and get those leaders to set an agenda for the future. Once that is done, YOU (not someone else), needs to participate with code snippets and development and helping out the newbies that will be the future developers of SME Server...Start developing leadership and code or it simply won't matter in the long run. We'll be here to provide the venue. YOU need to provide the rest."

it appears that our team wants to turn leadership over to others.  Two posts later, it appears that the site maintenance is about to be passed on to the first volunteer.  And two post after that it appears from the tone of the msg that maybe the existing team doesn't really want to throw in the towel...

"...If anyone volunteers here, we will gladly assign you a task that needs to be done and fits within your skills. It's then up to you to do the work  and we will ALL benefit from the results..."

.

Does our current leadership actually want to pass the baton on to others?  Is this actually the case or is this frustration at the lack of help/volunteers?  How are we to know?  If the current group wishes to have somebody take over a role, what is the framework for this to happen?  Our current leaders are the ones who should specify what they want, how it should be done and by when.  Ask specifically for the help that you want and the 'by who' part of the question will be answered (eventually).

I personally think the current team did a great job with the first release and would like to see them continue.  It would be a major loss for all of us if they walked away from the project.  If more 'official' guidance was provided, perhaps the volunteering would be more to your liking.  But if you want help, why was/is there so little 'official' guidance in the form or work lists, things to do lists, etc.?  (Perhaps a project management module could be added to xoops so that we could sign out tasks that we feel are a good match to our talents)?   It appears that a good 'todo' list has been started with the 'Site Work List' in the wiki section.  Perhaps the wiki isn't the best place to manage a todo list that will extend for years, but it is a good start (again, does xoops offer a project mgmt module?).

I think if your/our needs are communicated better (for example, in the form of tasks on a list), the volunteers would step up to the plate.  If you truly are tired of running the show, please say so officially and setup a turnover framework (with whatever polls, elections, etc. that you think are needed - you're in charge).  Let's not go on floundering and let the SME project fail due to attrition.  Let's take action!

For my part, I will again volunteer my time (I have project mgmt, specification, documentation and coding experience) if you make your needs known.  I would prefer to see what is needed though, which implies a plan and a tasklist.  If one exists, please post it.  If not, I'll join the group that develops one.

Finally, please take this in the spirit of help in which it was intended rather than as criticism.

[steve413]

I have been around and using e-smith, sme server since the early days of 4.1. I think that "cranky" in his post above has summarized the problem very well or should I say "hit the nail on the head" I agree it's time for those who want to do something to continue this fine distro to put up or shut up dont get me wrong I think the contribs.org are a fine bunch of people and have done a great job with their first release but if this distro is to continue someone is going to have to provide a plan and let the commuinity know what the plan is. If contribs.org does not want to provide the leadership to organize the future development of this distro then turn it over to those who do, vise versa to those that have offered to volunteer then lets all vote for a leader and get this thing organized and quit talking about it. I’m no coder I have been doing some scripting and learning to build some rpms however what ever way I can contribute to keep this fine distro going I will try my very best to provide.

Just my two cents worth,

Steve

[shmeg]

cranky - has summarised our position very well.
In earlier posts I had committed to starting a register of volunteers, resources related to then provide this back to the community as a starting point. I have had a number of positive responses.

I have been trying to email jeff for a week now to get his input/any existing volunteer info/ and publicity for this project however I have had no response. Even a polite email telling me to butt out.

I can assume either:
Jeff/Contribs is not interested?
There is something wrong with my email?
I live on a different planet?

Anyway if anyone knows how to contact Jeff directly or can get a message to him.
Give him my phone number
+61 7 41319704 (07)41319704
+61 414 282535 0414282535

Additionally,
If you have ANY interest in this topic whatsoever please register at

register@sme.ontrack.com.au

All I am doing in compiling a list of resources - a starting point to move on - not reinventing contribs or any such thing.

cheers
Ben